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Post by Al Smith on Mar 12, 2021 23:32:48 GMT -5
Thanks for joining me for the next round of BB Survivor: Label Debuts.
We're taking a step back in time to explore the bands label debut for their very own label - Brother Records. (Yes, it was distributed by Capitol and there are other complex arguments either way, but this is what we're gruelling through this round!)
Produced by The Beach Boys, for some a challenging album post the sheer layered brilliance of Pet Sounds and the lost promise of Smile, for others a beguiling stripped back offering and peak behind the curtain of Bellagio circa 1967.
You know the rules, you know the deal. Carefully read the directions of each heat's poll, and play hard to get your favourite track, or perhaps your second or third favourite track in the Survivor seat - skull duggery, treachery and general bastardness is appreciated.
Let's Play!!!!!
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Mar 13, 2021 0:20:39 GMT -5
Since this isn’t about the songs, it’s about the albums, and how the songs work with the albums, I have to remove Good Vibrations.
Its probably one of the best, most timeless and most well constructed pop singles of all time.
But on this quiet, druggy muddy trip, it rips all the Smiley ambience away for an entire track. it’s honestly really sad. It would be like trying to stick Our Car Club on Holland, just a stupid idea.
Clearly it was only on the album because their Label thought including it would increase sales, but it didn’t work, mainly because September 1967 Was Way different than October 1966. Different times, different sounds, different influences, different ideas.
Get out of here with this label requirement trash
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Post by Al Smith on Mar 13, 2021 4:36:25 GMT -5
Since this isn’t about the songs, it’s about the albums, and how the songs work with the albums, I have to remove Good Vibrations. Its probably one of the best, most timeless and most well constructed pop singles of all time. But on this quiet, druggy muddy trip, it rips all the Smiley ambience away for an entire track. it’s honestly really sad. It would be like trying to stick Our Car Club on Holland, just a stupid idea. Clearly it was only on the album because their Label thought including it would increase sales, but it didn’t work, mainly because September 1967 Was Way different than October 1966. Different times, different sounds, different influences, different ideas. Get out of here with this label requirement trash Yeah, GV is a hard one, isn’t it, on this album. Some would even have GV wasn’t going to be on Smile. All things equal, I tend to agree despite it’s amaze-balls-ness, GV’s incongruity is perplexing. Gettin’ Hungry, tho, follows it’s own Smiley Smile destiny. |
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Mar 13, 2021 10:48:12 GMT -5
Getting Hungry can get on my nerves, and it’s definitely not my favorite, but it still fits the album mood. It’s still murky, and dripping with baldwin, and I love it for what it is.
Should’ve opened the B side instead of GV
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Post by Will/P.P. on Mar 13, 2021 13:20:29 GMT -5
Thanks for joining me for the next round of BB Survivor: Label Debuts. We're taking a step back in time to explore the bands label debut for their very own label - Brother Records. (Yes, it was distributed by Capitol and there are other complex arguments either way, but this is what we're gruelling through this round!) Produced by The Beach Boys, for some a challenging album post the sheer layered brilliance of Pet Sounds and the lost promise of Smile, for others a beguiling stripped back offering and peak behind the curtain of Bellagio circa 1967. You know the rules, you know the deal. Carefully read the directions of each heat's poll, and play hard to get your favourite track, or perhaps your second or third favourite track in the Survivor seat - skull duggery, treachery and general bastardness is appreciated. Let's Play!!!!! Did you place a savior idol somewhere? Sure we'll need it for "Good Vibrations" !!!  |
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Post by Will/P.P. on Mar 13, 2021 13:24:59 GMT -5
I'm going to start off with "Vegetables". Not my favorite version of a great song.
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Post by Mikie on Mar 13, 2021 13:28:18 GMT -5
Not too hard - Fall Breaks.
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Post by filledeplage on Mar 13, 2021 13:34:22 GMT -5
Since this isn’t about the songs, it’s about the albums, and how the songs work with the albums, I have to remove Good Vibrations. Its probably one of the best, most timeless and most well constructed pop singles of all time. But on this quiet, druggy muddy trip, it rips all the Smiley ambience away for an entire track. it’s honestly really sad. It would be like trying to stick Our Car Club on Holland, just a stupid idea. Clearly it was only on the album because their Label thought including it would increase sales, but it didn’t work, mainly because September 1967 Was Way different than October 1966. Different times, different sounds, different influences, different ideas. Get out of here with this label requirement trash Of course GV as a hit seller was slapped on to help carry sales and maybe some airplay. October of '66 was not all that different from September of '67 but all part of a warp-speed era and pretty much in the same groove. I hope that is not what is being taught at the college level, for rock music. However poor the sales were, it was a function of disinformation about what happened to the original project and zero promotion. In the fall of '67 or that summer they should have held their noses and released the live Hawaii LP. It would have bought them time the way the Party album - the accidental hit of '65. Kids loved live albums. |
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Post by Will/P.P. on Mar 13, 2021 13:39:13 GMT -5
Since this isn’t about the songs, it’s about the albums, and how the songs work with the albums, I have to remove Good Vibrations. Its probably one of the best, most timeless and most well constructed pop singles of all time. But on this quiet, druggy muddy trip, it rips all the Smiley ambience away for an entire track. it’s honestly really sad. It would be like trying to stick Our Car Club on Holland, just a stupid idea. Clearly it was only on the album because their Label thought including it would increase sales, but it didn’t work, mainly because September 1967 Was Way different than October 1966. Different times, different sounds, different influences, different ideas. Get out of here with this label requirement trash I'll let it pass that you were not even alive in 1967... "Good Vibrations" was all over the radio in the Summer of Love. And Summer of 1968, 1969, 1970... that's the way classics roll. The only difference between late-1966 and September of 1967 was the access to pot outside of big cities. It was showing up in matchboxes in rural towns. |
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Post by Will/P.P. on Mar 13, 2021 13:41:52 GMT -5
Not too hard - Fall Breaks. Hope that's not the first to go. Loved it then, love it, now. |
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Mar 13, 2021 13:48:18 GMT -5
Since this isn’t about the songs, it’s about the albums, and how the songs work with the albums, I have to remove Good Vibrations. Its probably one of the best, most timeless and most well constructed pop singles of all time. But on this quiet, druggy muddy trip, it rips all the Smiley ambience away for an entire track. it’s honestly really sad. It would be like trying to stick Our Car Club on Holland, just a stupid idea. Clearly it was only on the album because their Label thought including it would increase sales, but it didn’t work, mainly because September 1967 Was Way different than October 1966. Different times, different sounds, different influences, different ideas. Get out of here with this label requirement trash Of course GV as a hit seller was slapped on to help carry sales and maybe some airplay. October of '66 was not all that different from September of '67 but all part of a warp-speed era and pretty much in the same groove. I hope that is not what is being taught at the college level, for rock music. However poor the sales were, it was a function of disinformation about what happened to the original project and zero promotion. In the fall of '67 or that summer they should have held their noses and released the live Hawaii LP. It would have bought them time the way the Party album - the accidental hit of '65. Kids loved live albums. What? The live Hawaii album would’ve done even worse. I mean, over the years I and many others have grown to enjoy those performances, but... no. To any average listener, it would’ve sounded like garbage next to what the Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, etc. were putting out that year. It wouldn’t have bought them time, it would’ve solidified their irrelevancy. |
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Post by Mikie on Mar 13, 2021 15:36:08 GMT -5
I'm going to start off with "Vegetables". Not my favorite version of a great song. How 'bout the Smile version, Will? You like that one better? |
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Post by Fall Breaks on Mar 13, 2021 16:17:09 GMT -5
Not too hard - Fall Breaks. Hey! |
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Post by filledeplage on Mar 13, 2021 16:40:58 GMT -5
Of course GV as a hit seller was slapped on to help carry sales and maybe some airplay. October of '66 was not all that different from September of '67 but all part of a warp-speed era and pretty much in the same groove. I hope that is not what is being taught at the college level, for rock music. However poor the sales were, it was a function of disinformation about what happened to the original project and zero promotion. In the fall of '67 or that summer they should have held their noses and released the live Hawaii LP. It would have bought them time the way the Party album - the accidental hit of '65. Kids loved live albums. What? The live Hawaii album would’ve done even worse. I mean, over the years I and many others have grown to enjoy those performances, but... no. To any average listener, it would’ve sounded like garbage next to what the Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, etc. were putting out that year. It wouldn’t have bought them time, it would’ve solidified their irrelevancy. See below, please. |
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Post by Mikie on Mar 13, 2021 16:41:23 GMT -5
Not too hard - Fall Breaks. Hey! Ha Ha Ha! Coincidentally, I was thinking about you when I voted! Hope there's no offense taken - you obviously like it, but something had to go. I dislike this damn game because when we get about a quarter of the way through these albums, I really like all the songs that are left!  |
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Post by filledeplage on Mar 13, 2021 16:42:36 GMT -5
What? The live Hawaii album would’ve done even worse. I mean, over the years I and many others have grown to enjoy those performances, but... no. To any average listener, it would’ve sounded like garbage next to what the Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, etc. were putting out that year. It wouldn’t have bought them time, it would’ve solidified their irrelevancy. So, I disagree. Strongly. Best of Vol I was dropped about 8 weeks after Pet Sounds. In 1966. There was this gap until GV. Some kind of a live album would even have been great in 1966 just after WIBN/GOK was getting a little weaker on the charts until GV in the fall. Momentum is everything. It is what they lost was continuous momentum, continuous airplay. For a band, that is a killer. Live, with some of those other tracks would have been great, from Sunshine Tomorrow Disc 2, in the summer, of '67, in real time. It would have bought them time to finish or start another project, which they eventually did, with Wild Honey. |
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Mar 13, 2021 17:43:46 GMT -5
So, I disagree. Strongly. Best of Vol I was dropped about 8 weeks after Pet Sounds. In 1966. There was this gap until GV. Some kind of a live album would even have been great in 1966 just after WIBN/GOK was getting a little weaker on the charts until GV in the fall. Momentum is everything. It is what they lost was continuous momentum, continuous airplay. For a band, that is a killer. Live, with some of those other tracks would have been great, from Sunshine Tomorrow Disc 2, in the summer, of '67, in real time. It would have bought them time to finish or start another project, which they eventually did, with Wild Honey. Best of volume one is hated by the group members for doing exactly what it did, completely overshadowing their new artistic work and somewhat restricting their growth in the eyes of their label. Not a very good example I would use. On top of that, in the summer of 67, they released another greatest hits compilation as a stop gap. Putting good vibrations aside for a second as it was just a single, when it comes to full length projects, they released two filler greatest hits compilations in a row. Best of the Beach boys volume two, which was released in July 1967, flopped. From the Wikipedia page: “Released at a perilous moment in the Beach Boys' career, the appearance of their past glories on Best of The Beach Boys Vol. 2 perhaps helped confirm to the general public that the band was not up to the challenge of the new psychedelic music, spearheaded by albums such as The Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, Forever Changes by Love, Disraeli Gears by Cream, Surrealistic Pillow by Jefferson Airplane and The Jimi Hendrix Experience's radical debut Are You Experienced. "I Get Around", "California Girls", "Let Him Run Wild", and "Please Let Me Wonder" were considered old hat in the face of psychedelia and as a result Best of The Beach Boys Vol. 2 initially flopped in the US, only reaching #50.” So by the summer of 67, no one wanted to listen to those hits. Following that up with a third filler live album that, for all tense and purposes, isn’t very great, wouldn’t have helped in the slightest. They barely got past with Smiley, which was a long awaited follow up album of all new material other than the singles. That thing only hit number 41 in the United States. A live album of rehashed, sloppily performed Baldwin drenched hits coming out instead of Smiley, or even directly after Smiley would’ve confirmed what was becoming a myth around summer/fall 67, that The Beach Boys were washed up ”Surfing Doris day’s“ long past their prime. Now obviously that’s not true at all, but releasing “Lei’d in Hawaii“ in 67 would have done absolutely nothing to help recover that reputation. They had trouble getting Radio stations to play Heroes and villains, imagine trying to get them to play Live in Hawaii Help You Ronda or California Girls? They would’ve been laughed off the airways. Either way, no matter what way you slice it, we are getting off topic. My original point was that GV does not fit on Smiley, it clearly didn’t help sell the album with its inclusion, so it goes |
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Post by filledeplage on Mar 13, 2021 18:26:46 GMT -5
Best of volume one is hated by the group members for doing exactly what it did, completely overshadowing their new artistic work and somewhat restricting their growth in the eyes of their label. Not a very good example I would use. On top of that, in the summer of 67, they released another greatest hits compilation as a stop gap. Putting good vibrations aside for a second as it was just a single, when it comes to full length projects, they released two filler greatest hits compilations in a row. Best of the Beach boys volume two, which was released in July 1967, flopped. From the Wikipedia page: “Released at a perilous moment in the Beach Boys' career, the appearance of their past glories on Best of The Beach Boys Vol. 2 perhaps helped confirm to the general public that the band was not up to the challenge of the new psychedelic music, spearheaded by albums such as The Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, Forever Changes by Love, Disraeli Gears by Cream, Surrealistic Pillow by Jefferson Airplane and The Jimi Hendrix Experience's radical debut Are You Experienced. "I Get Around", "California Girls", "Let Him Run Wild", and "Please Let Me Wonder" were considered old hat in the face of psychedelia and as a result Best of The Beach Boys Vol. 2 initially flopped in the US, only reaching #50.” So by the summer of 67, no one wanted to listen to those hits. Following that up with a third filler live album that, for all tense and purposes, isn’t very great, wouldn’t have helped in the slightest. They barely got past with Smiley, which was a long awaited follow up album of all new material other than the singles. That thing only hit number 41 in the United States. A live album of rehashed, sloppily performed Baldwin drenched hits coming out instead of Smiley, or even directly after Smiley would’ve confirmed what was becoming a myth around summer/fall 67, that The Beach Boys were washed up ”Surfing Doris day’s“ long past their prime. Now obviously that’s not true at all, but releasing “Lei’d in Hawaii“ in 67 would have done absolutely nothing to help recover that reputation. They had trouble getting Radio stations to play Heroes and villains, imagine trying to get them to play Live in Hawaii Help You Ronda or California Girls? They would’ve been laughed off the airways. Either way, no matter what way you slice it, we are getting off topic. My original point was that GV does not fit on Smiley, it clearly didn’t help sell the album with its inclusion, so it goes The reference is wiki. And, I had it in real time, watching the charts and listening to the top 100 every week. So even if you look at something like Sounds of Súmmer - up and down for years - running with the seasons, they did need those tracks as a stop gap. Party was a Beatles' cover and a surprise hit - and that was buying time as well. Lei'd in Hawaii might have done quite nicely. The airplay got bad around Sunflower. Even weaker singles like Breakaway and Friends got some airplay but that was at least a year later. What you are not looking at is that there were radio markets that were strong BB markets - maybe not all over the country but loyal nonetheless. The "sloppy play" is your opinion. Those live shows only played hits - maybe a cover or two with The Letter, Gettin' Hungry, Hawthorne Boulevard and Their Hearts Were Full of Spring, included. Not to mention Brian being in attendance after being off the road for 2 years. I realize you are very passionate - and like detail, but this is very nuanced. |
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Post by kds on Mar 13, 2021 23:04:30 GMT -5
Im voting for Gettin Hungry. There's a lot of less than good material on this album, but I think Fall Breaks is one of the few intriguing moments.
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Post by Fall Breaks on Mar 14, 2021 2:36:44 GMT -5
Ha Ha Ha! Coincidentally, I was thinking about you when I voted! Hope there's no offense taken - you obviously like it, but something had to go. I dislike this damn game because when we get about a quarter of the way through these albums, I really like all the songs that are left! Haha, no offense taken  |
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Post by AGD on Mar 14, 2021 11:40:13 GMT -5
Since this isn’t about the songs, it’s about the albums, and how the songs work with the albums, I have to remove Good Vibrations. Its probably one of the best, most timeless and most well constructed pop singles of all time. But on this quiet, druggy muddy trip, it rips all the Smiley ambience away for an entire track. it’s honestly really sad. It would be like trying to stick Our Car Club on Holland, just a stupid idea. Clearly it was only on the album because their Label thought including it would increase sales, but it didn’t work, mainly because September 1967 Was Way different than October 1966. Different times, different sounds, different influences, different ideas. Get out of here with this label requirement trash "Their label" at the time was Brother Records. Which they owned. Capitol only distributed this album. You were saying ? |
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Mar 14, 2021 13:51:10 GMT -5
Since this isn’t about the songs, it’s about the albums, and how the songs work with the albums, I have to remove Good Vibrations. Its probably one of the best, most timeless and most well constructed pop singles of all time. But on this quiet, druggy muddy trip, it rips all the Smiley ambience away for an entire track. it’s honestly really sad. It would be like trying to stick Our Car Club on Holland, just a stupid idea. Clearly it was only on the album because their Label thought including it would increase sales, but it didn’t work, mainly because September 1967 Was Way different than October 1966. Different times, different sounds, different influences, different ideas. Get out of here with this label requirement trash "Their label" at the time was Brother Records. Which they owned. Capitol only distributed this album. You were saying ? Brother was also the label for Sunflower, with Warner as the distributor. And yet, it was Warner’s who rejected the first lineup, not Brother. No matter what the label on the album says, it was Capitol calling the shots |
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Post by mfp on Mar 14, 2021 14:44:57 GMT -5
I've lost my appetite for "Gettin' Hungry"
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Mar 14, 2021 18:45:15 GMT -5
I am voting off Fall Breaks and Back To Winter. I’m a fan of Mrs. O’Leary’s Cow, but I don’t really like this arrangement of it. I do like the Woody Woodpecker effects, though.
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Post by AGD on Mar 14, 2021 18:57:28 GMT -5
"Their label" at the time was Brother Records. Which they owned. Capitol only distributed this album. You were saying ? Brother was also the label for Sunflower, with Warner as the distributor. And yet, it was Warner’s who rejected the first lineup, not Brother. No matter what the label on the album says, it was Capitol calling the shots Brother-Reprise, actually... and no, Capitol was not calling the shots: they had no say in what Brother chose to put on their releases. That was the whole point of Brother: the band had complete artistic control. For one album and two singles, anyway. Capitol weren't bankrolling Smiley Smile (the singles excepted, and "GV" had already more than paid back their investment in it). In fact, from 1962 to 1969, Capitol never called the shots (with the possible exception of insisting "Good Vibrations" be included on Smile - which became a moot point anyway). They just took what Brian gave them, pressed it up and, at least until the end of 1966, counted the money. |
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