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Post by John Manning on Feb 2, 2020 20:12:29 GMT -5
There are occasions when culling wildlife is a necessary conservation measure. The government here has, for example, on occasion had red deer shot in large numbers, in the Scottish highlands. Numbers of hinds are artificially high and overgrazing is preventing natural regeneration of flora and woodland. The shooting estates are responsible for this – their clients would rather pay to shoot stags than hinds (stags’ heads have large racks/antlers and look great mounted on the living room wall) so the hinds aren’t controlled because there’s no money in it. There are no natural predators of red deer in the UK (they were hunted to extinction centuries ago) so the deer harm the environment unless numbers are artificially managed. The culling is a very different issue to the stalking – while the stalking estates might claim to be interested in conservation, the reality shows the lie. They offer recreational shooting-for-pleasure packages to people with the wealth to indulge their blood lust. Most estates are better run than that, I must stress.
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 2, 2020 20:20:26 GMT -5
From their own website: "Safari Club International is a U.S.-based organization of more than 50,000 hunters dedicated to protecting the right to hunt and to promote wildlife conservation worldwide." "Hunting is under constant attack by anti-hunters who introduce legislation and use the courts to stop hunting. SCI employs staff, contractors and volunteers in a team effort to fight for hunting. SCI operates in the U.S. Congress, in the state legislatures and wildlife commissions, in Canada, in the European Union and elsewhere internationally." They promote, and actively lobby for, the right to continue to kill animals with guns. Care to explain to me exaclty how that's conservation ? You're saving something by killing it ? Some of these "hunts" are of captive species on raches in the US, so essentially they're breeding species purely for "hunting". Furthermore, SCI has strong links to the NRA. And if you don't find any/all of this utterly disgusting then I don't want to know or interact with you in any way. Yes, Andrew, it is from their website - but the photo on the petition is not - so I see it as a false representation. That photo was probably from some African Safari Trump’s kids went on. And not for duck hunting, ice-fishing, and whatever comes under their umbrella. It is not all trophy hunting. Some formerly protected animals, near extinction (after several decades) are no longer extinct and some of their populations are absolutely out of control, spread disease - despite being very cute in photos. In my opinion, the petition headline and photo was calculated to be inflammatory and defamatory. Their site claims 335 million members. I don’t know about that... but, with those kinds of numbers you can ruin someone’s career pretty quickly. They (SCI) fight poaching for ivory which was found on every piano in the world until the 80’s or so. And, I am not a member. Fishing and hunting is not my thing but I respect the right to fish and hunt game. They are subject to restrictions on time, place and manner. When I saw the Trump kids photos, and the petition format, I wanted to compare the actual group, to the petition, because I am on their mailing list serve (change.org) and (moveon.org) get solicitations for donations from them no less than every day. They tend to have contempt anything agrarian-based and regard those people as ignorant. I wonder where they think their duck à l’orange comes from - and not the frozen food case. Some farm where they keep a rifle to keep wild boar from their doors or pens. They are in full on panic mode over the President. There are many complains online concerning monies taken from credit cards without authorization and selling of email lists and data to various companies for this petition website. But, I have a problem with an activist group interfering with a business and defaming them (any business for that matter) because they are working an event. Where does it stop? It is a Hunter’s Convention. No mention of “trophy hunters.” Theodore Roosevelt (president) organized wildlife management.’’ These groups have long histories. “On a global scale, hunters support concepts of sustainable use and community-based natural resource management that conserve iconic species such as the lion, elephants, rhinoceros, leopards and cheetahs.” - from their website. This looks like their position. “In conjunction with its sister organization the SCI Foundation, SCI provides on-the-ground conservation and anti-poaching funding.” Sustainable use can be water management, rain collection from roofs, solar, wind, composting, etc. The convention is targeted for “all ages” with fish tanks, archery targets, animal identification and career exploration in wildlife management. And Auburn University Wildlife Enterprise Management Degree is running some kind of lecture. Fishery and wildlife is a business. One of the seminars is “ Building a Generation of Hope in the Outdoors” - a mentoring organization that attempts to shatter the cycle of a fatherless generation by taking them outdoors. Do we say that a band can’t work for any of the “vice industries” because you don’t like the effect of the “vice? Like gambling casinos or horse racing tracks or whatever? And attempt to destroy their reputations? Do you take a gig because you agree with a philosophy or because it is work to maintain employment? That goes for any occupation. I am looking through a legal lens. And I’m a union person. This is a US group with branches everywhere. Yes, of course the group has members and staff. And this hunting activity comes under some broad heading of “fisheries and game.” Fishing and hunting game are regulated by states, that way in the US. They are highly regulated. You need licenses for everything. Here is one example. This is from Vermont. vtfishandwildlife.com/ JMHO - of course.
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Post by andrewhickey on Feb 2, 2020 20:54:26 GMT -5
That photo was probably from some African Safari Trump’s kids went on. Yep. Almost like this is about some sort of... Safari Club? They (SCI) fight poaching for ivory which was found on every piano in the world until the 80’s or so. From their website: "SCI is extremely active battling anti-ivory proposals in the state legislatures. In addition to working with the outdoor groups SCI traditionally partners with, we have been collaborating with antiques dealers, musical instrument manufactures, and auction houses to relay that these ivory restriction proposals not only affect hunters but numerous other law-abiding citizens. SCI has also submitted testimony to state legislatures while conducting frequent meetings in various state capitals. Along with testimony, SCI has written opinion editorials that has been featured in a number of newspapers throughout the country. This multi-prong strategy has allowed SCI to reach more individuals and has permitted us to educate a wider audience about the negative consequences of ivory restrictions." Odd definition of "fight[ing] poaching for ivory" you have, if it includes lobbying legislators not to ban ivory. This is not an organisation that deserves any respect at all. From the Humane Society: "Safari Club awards include "Cats of the World," for which a trophy hunter must kill four of the big cats, such as a lion, leopard, cheetah and jaguar. "Bears of the World" requires the killing of four species, such as a polar bear, grizzly bear, black bear and Eurasian brown bear. The "African Big Five" requires a leopard, elephant, lion, rhino and buffalo. Add a hippo and crocodile to that list and you can also have the "Dangerous Game of Africa." The "African 29" requires an arrangement of impala, gazelle, pygmy antelope, eland, oryx, waterbuck, wildebeest and others. To complete all 35 "Grand Slam" and "Inner Circle" award categories at the "Diamond" level, a hunter must kill a minimum of 499 species and subspecies, enough to populate several zoos." This is not about hunting for food, or shooting wild animals to protect livestock. One can debate about the morality of that kind of hunting, but I suspect few here would have a serious problem with it. I certainly don't -- my in-laws are Minnesotan farmers, and I am very aware of the realities of US rural life. If this was an organisation of duck hunters or deer hunters... well, I don't see how anyone can *enjoy* killing an animal, but there's nothing more ethically wrong with that than with buying a burger. Probably slightly less. But these are people giving awards for travelling to another continent and shooting endangered animals for trophies. There is no justification for that.
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 2, 2020 21:37:41 GMT -5
Andrew - I must have looked someplace else on their site (the event site) concerning poaching - which I think is not supported in the US. I don’t know where these antique dealers are located but it is not something I support and there is a great deal of crime, murders even, with those who traffic in ivory. No need to kill and elephant for piano keys. We are on the same page.
My problem is the bullying, defamation and the attempt to restrain where entertainers can perform. I quoted from the link on the event site not the corporate site. They may be different.
Thank you for sharing about your in-laws. The attitude of contempt towards rural life and those who help to feed us, by the “coastal elites” as they are now known, is a very derogatory and disrespectful one, and the mass media are part of the problem. And the fact that this petition was not a grassroots one, but one from a professional one, who lobbies in this area, is something I find troubling. I did not see that awards section for that competition. Thank you for pointing that out.
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Post by reggiedunbar on Feb 3, 2020 0:41:45 GMT -5
I think it would be fair to say that most of us on this board are meat eaters. The pain that these animals go through for our daily meals is something most of us pretend not to see. And yet we want to be keyboard warriors and preach what we think is right, at the same times ignoring our own mistakes.
Honestly, The event will go on with or without the band. Might as well just play the gig. It's the same as performing a private gig for a company that makes sausages.
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Post by John Manning on Feb 3, 2020 2:37:58 GMT -5
It's the same as performing a private gig for a company that makes sausages. Point taken, though I doubt many folk would pay to travel the world to take part in a recreational Sausage Safari. And sausages aren’t made from endangered species.
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Post by reggiedunbar on Feb 3, 2020 3:01:39 GMT -5
John Manning, I respect your point.
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Post by John Manning on Feb 3, 2020 4:29:54 GMT -5
John Manning, I respect your point. There is though a song to be written about "Sausage Safari"!
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Post by John Manning on Feb 3, 2020 5:00:39 GMT -5
The change.org petition photo at the top was two of the Trump sons. A trigger. Yes, they are involved but the organization has nothing on their site with that photo. This looks like a googled photo to whip up a media narrative. This man has an organization against trophy hunting and appears to be exploiting this event to raise his own organization’s profile. It looks more political than anything. He is not some anonymous animal activist. He is a pro doing opposition activism. It is his business and he is a professional lobbyist. I wonder what his salary is. He worked as a House of Commons researcher, Communications Director for a group working for former Prime Minister Tony Blair. He is not an unpaid volunteer. I agree with a lot of his positions but he is no amateur, setting up this petition. That photo does not appear anywhere in their online literature that I could find. There are 50k members and 180 chapters. I wonder how many bothered to read any of the positions of the organization or knew the background of the person who started it, before they signed the petition. Or their (SCI) conservation efforts bringing almost extinct species back from the brink and re-populated (some back to the nuisance scale.) Wild turkeys for one! This is a self-serving hit - plain and simple, using the band, and their popularity, to garner attention before some big political events this week. And sully the reputation of the band. They are just collateral damage for him. And a tool to raise his own profile and agenda. The SCI organization is not centered on trophy hunting. In fact it traces hunting as the survival skill going back to the beginning of mankind. Part of what they (SCI) raise goes for anti-poaching. (Ivory from elephants, etc. ) It looks like a false representation of what the organization’s prime goals are. And, I hope they (SCI) sue him into oblivion. I don’t agree with trophy hunting, because I think it is stupid, to go anywhere near a beast that could eat you for a snack, but this is not that. It is political. edgoncalves.wordpress.com/about/ The guy behind the petition also seems to be obsessive about campaigning against trophy hunting. His Facebook account suggests nothing else (though that could, obviously, be set-up; his Twitter account has either been closed by Twitter or himself two or three years ago). He's on a mission and I suspect his HoC role has only informed his campaign, rather than his campaign being a way to further his political career if, indeed, he aspires to one. As a professional lobbyist he appears to be lobbying for just one cause. His job description, according to his LinkedIn page, is "Founder, Campaign to Ban Trophy Hunting".
That might explain why he's all over this?
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Departed
Former Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2020 8:19:30 GMT -5
I signed the petition. In my note I respectfully asked the group to reconsider and bow out of the engagement.
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 3, 2020 8:47:28 GMT -5
The change.org petition photo at the top was two of the Trump sons. A trigger. Yes, they are involved but the organization has nothing on their site with that photo. This looks like a googled photo to whip up a media narrative. This man has an organization against trophy hunting and appears to be exploiting this event to raise his own organization’s profile. It looks more political than anything. He is not some anonymous animal activist. He is a pro doing opposition activism. It is his business and he is a professional lobbyist. I wonder what his salary is. He worked as a House of Commons researcher, Communications Director for a group working for former Prime Minister Tony Blair. He is not an unpaid volunteer. I agree with a lot of his positions but he is no amateur, setting up this petition. That photo does not appear anywhere in their online literature that I could find. There are 50k members and 180 chapters. I wonder how many bothered to read any of the positions of the organization or knew the background of the person who started it, before they signed the petition. Or their (SCI) conservation efforts bringing almost extinct species back from the brink and re-populated (some back to the nuisance scale.) Wild turkeys for one! This is a self-serving hit - plain and simple, using the band, and their popularity, to garner attention before some big political events this week. And sully the reputation of the band. They are just collateral damage for him. And a tool to raise his own profile and agenda. The SCI organization is not centered on trophy hunting. In fact it traces hunting as the survival skill going back to the beginning of mankind. Part of what they (SCI) raise goes for anti-poaching. (Ivory from elephants, etc. ) It looks like a false representation of what the organization’s prime goals are. And, I hope they (SCI) sue him into oblivion. I don’t agree with trophy hunting, because I think it is stupid, to go anywhere near a beast that could eat you for a snack, but this is not that. It is political. edgoncalves.wordpress.com/about/ The guy behind the petition also seems to be obsessive about campaigning against trophy hunting. His Facebook account suggests nothing else (though that could, obviously, be set-up; his Twitter account has either been closed by Twitter or himself two or three years ago). He's on a mission and I suspect his HoC role has only informed his campaign, rather than his campaign being a way to further his political career if, indeed, he aspires to one. As a professional lobbyist he appears to be lobbying for just one cause. His job description, according to his LinkedIn page, is "Founder, Campaign to Ban Trophy Hunting".
That might explain why he's all over this?
Bingo. Those jobs such as in the HoC are considered a type of boot camp for running for office. They learn the machinations of the job and then run for office, rather than running for office first and then learning the ropes - like an on the job training scenario.
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Post by Emdeeh on Feb 3, 2020 9:55:39 GMT -5
So, given his past support of environmental causes, including iirc a rhino rescue group, what are the odds that Bruce will stay home for this gig?
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Post by pendlewitch on Feb 3, 2020 13:22:27 GMT -5
Had a bit of a low-tech January, and come back to this horrible news. There are many controversial and divisive issues being thrown into the mix in previous posts that could tax the posters of this board for a long time, if we went on to discuss them! I'm trying not to be sidetracked.
Basically, the Beach Boys intend to play at a convention that includes unashamed big-game trophy hunters.
Their songs of ecological and environmental awareness were well ahead of their time, and I think we all assumed were genuinely felt. Was it all a lie, after all?
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Post by E on Feb 3, 2020 14:29:13 GMT -5
Had a bit of a low-tech January, and come back to this horrible news. There are many controversial and divisive issues being thrown into the mix in previous posts that could tax the posters of this board for a long time, if we went on to discuss them! I'm trying not to be sidetracked. Basically, the Beach Boys intend to play at a convention that includes unashamed big-game trophy hunters. Their songs of ecological and environmental awareness were well ahead of their time, and I think we all assumed were genuinely felt. Was it all a lie, after all? This.
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Post by Cam Mott on Feb 3, 2020 14:29:37 GMT -5
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Post by John Manning on Feb 3, 2020 14:42:37 GMT -5
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Post by John Manning on Feb 3, 2020 14:42:50 GMT -5
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Post by Al S on Feb 3, 2020 14:47:29 GMT -5
As dumb as this may sound, Has anyone here in contact with Mike or his management reached out to ask wtf - given Mike’s vegetarianism, TMism and environmentalism, I’m wondering if he knows what he’s getting himself into...
Bail out, Mike, bail out!
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Post by Al S on Feb 3, 2020 14:50:45 GMT -5
John Manning, I respect your point. There is though a song to be written about "Sausage Safari"! Early in the morning we’ll be frying up the bacon will be comin’ along we’re up loading up the wood into the bbq and headin’ out singing our song...
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Post by kds on Feb 3, 2020 14:52:16 GMT -5
Interesting. I can't recall any other instance where Brian('s social media team) pretty much called out the touring Beach Boys.
Al shared the post. Probably doesn't bode too well for any of those old reunion hopes.
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Post by John Manning on Feb 3, 2020 15:11:50 GMT -5
Unsettling, the whole thing.
Gazing across to that “other place” this is a rare time when them and us seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet, in damn near total harmony. To bring the band’s strongest fan together across a great divide takes some doing.
I guess if there is a positive to draw from this tawdry affair, that’s it.
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Post by bryand on Feb 3, 2020 16:06:02 GMT -5
Mike and company are in a difficult situation. In my opinion, if Trump Jr. were not involved, making an exit would be easier. Since Trump Jr. is going to speak later this week at this convention, by backing out, The Beach Boys are not showing their support to long time ally, Mr. President. It is a political mine field.
I agree that the cause is horrible and I am glad that people are taking a stand.
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Post by Emdeeh on Feb 3, 2020 16:17:16 GMT -5
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Post by Cam Mott on Feb 3, 2020 16:32:08 GMT -5
I'd like to hear Mike and Bruce's side of it before getting too sanctimonious, but still I oppose trophy hunting in general.
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 3, 2020 16:53:37 GMT -5
I'd like to hear Mike and Bruce's side of it before getting too sanctimonious, but still I oppose trophy hunting in general. Cam - I hear no one from the event, itself, clarify just what the convention is representing; whether it is a broad spectrum family event or not. I highly doubt that they are teaching kids to hunt trophy animals. I wonder if they took a position and disavowed any type of trophy hunting - if it would make a difference if it stayed within the state regulated fisheries and game domains. If the organization did disavow the trophy hunting component, and there was still a furor - it would be clear that it was political, self-serving as to the petition originator, and calculated to hurt the band because of a perception that it was connected to Trump. And raise his personal profile. There is no better way to “get someone” is when one goes after their kids. Does not matter which party.
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