|
Post by Mikie on Nov 26, 2019 13:15:10 GMT -5
I've been asking Craig for years to do a "Carl & The Passions" album sessionography. His response is "That's why my name is Slooowwwinski". But I know it must be difficult - probably one of the hardest ones because of the lack of session information available.
|
|
|
Post by craigslowinski on Nov 26, 2019 13:40:45 GMT -5
I've been asking Craig for years to do a "Carl & The Passions" album sessionography. His response is "That's why my name is Slooowwwinski". But I know it must be difficult - probably one of the hardest ones because of the lack of session information available. Actually, I do have a full set of AFM contracts for the Carl & The Passions (So Tough) album. Problem is, I'd also need to hear the session tapes to determine, for instance, which of the players listed is playing the bass on "Beatrice" (aka "Mess Of Help)".
|
|
|
Post by Mikie on Nov 26, 2019 14:06:38 GMT -5
Cool! Didn't know you had the AFM contracts for C&TP. And I know you can't always rely 100% on the information on the contracts. So it's either the information contained therein or you go with hearsay, or you rely on your ears for confirmation (which is not easy as most of that material hasn't been booted so you'd need access to the tapes in the vault). Doesn't help that Carl, Dennis, Rieley, and Daryl Dragon aren't around to verify stuff, but you still have Al, Blondie, Ricky, Billy, Steve Moffitt, and maybe Brian to talk to.
Edit: By the way, Happy belated Birthday, Craig!
|
|
|
Post by Micha on Nov 26, 2019 23:55:36 GMT -5
Are the outtakes much different than the released versions, Craig? Or do you mean outtakes in a different way than alternate takes (as in unreleased until the 2018 'Wake The World' comp came out).
Are you going to do Wiki's on the Friends material or put it up on the Archives or better yet hard copies? I know you're less inclined to do the latter.
I meant both, really - there's radically alternate versions of stuff, for instance "Be Still" with the full band, as well as unused songs like "I'm Confessin'/You're As Cool As Can Be". Yes, I'm less inclined to do hard copies, for the very reason that more info always seems to come to light, making previously-published versions obsolete, yet still out there. Websites, however, can be updated in a matter of seconds. "Be still" with the full band? A studio version? That would be interesting, even though the way it is on Friends it is one of my four favorite tracks from that album. Has that been released?
|
|
|
Post by zebulan on Nov 27, 2019 7:54:00 GMT -5
"Be still" with the full band? A studio version? That would be interesting, even though the way it is on Friends it is one of my four favorite tracks from that album. Has that been released? I think craigslowinski is referring to this:
|
|
|
Post by craigslowinski on Nov 27, 2019 10:51:44 GMT -5
Yep. Released on last year's Wake The World download set.
|
|
|
Post by craigslowinski on Nov 27, 2019 12:57:51 GMT -5
Since we're asking 1968 questions, who are the drums, accordion and horns on the Time to Get Alone remake? (Already got Brian on piano, Carl on guitar and Joe Osborn on bass) Regrettably, we can't say - no AFM or Capitol documentation has yet surfaced to indicate that, and there's only enough chatter on the session tape to ID the three mentioned above.
|
|
|
Post by Micha on Nov 27, 2019 23:25:01 GMT -5
Yep. Released on last year's Wake The World download set. Hadn't been paying attention to that one. Thanks, Zebulan! Has anyone tried to synch the released version with this track? Well, I think, I'd still prefer the kind of SmileySmileske version with just the organ and Dennis.
|
|
|
Post by Vale on Jan 13, 2020 9:21:03 GMT -5
Question: basically, what is the main difference between the 70s CBS promo LPs and the officially released ones? Same quality?
|
|
Departed
Former Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 11:30:48 GMT -5
Question: basically, what is the main difference between the 70s CBS promo LPs and the officially released ones? Same quality?
I'm not an audiophile, so I can't say. What people have told me is that when a stamper has pressed 50,000 or more records, it is considered to be worn out. New stampers are created. I've also heard that the first records off a stamper have the best audio quality.
Test pressings are the first to be pressed. Quantities can range from 3 to a box, or two, depending who is on distribution for them. I ran a small CBS distributed label. They would send me three to test so I could approve the pressing. White label promos are next. The first round of promos that go to radio, press and retail should be excellent. The number could be in the hundreds up to the thousands. Sometimes promos would get a 'reservice,' if there was a new round of marketing or promotion on a project. For reservice promos, regular stock would be pulled from the distributor and stamped, punched, or otherwise marked as promo.
When I was collecting, I would want the commercial and promo versions. Test pressings, too, if I could snag them.
You would have to do your own comparisons or rely on people's recommendations for the best quality pressings.
|
|
|
Post by Vale on Jan 13, 2020 12:13:27 GMT -5
Question: basically, what is the main difference between the 70s CBS promo LPs and the officially released ones? Same quality?
I'm not an audiophile, so I can't say. What people have told me is that when a stamper has pressed 50,000 or more records, it is considered to be worn out. New stampers are created. I've also heard that the first records off a stamper have the best audio quality.
Test pressings are the first to be pressed. Quantities can range from 3 to a box, or two, depending who is on distribution for them. I ran a small CBS distributed label. They would send me three to test so I could approve the pressing. White label promos are next. The first round of promos that go to radio, press and retail should be excellent. The number could be in the hundreds up to the thousands. Sometimes promos would get a 'reservice,' if there was a new round of marketing or promotion on a project. For reservice promos, regular stock would be pulled from the distributor and stamped, punched, or otherwise marked as promo.
When I was collecting, I would want the commercial and promo versions. Test pressings, too, if I could snag them.
You would have to do your own comparisons or rely on people's recommendations for the best quality pressings.
Thanks a lot for the accurate reply!
|
|
|
Post by craigslowinski on Jan 17, 2020 12:58:17 GMT -5
Well, all I can say it that the Adult Child version of "SB" reportedly uses the basic track from '73, but there was at least one '77 overdub added, namely Jim Horn's sax part, according to an AFM contract with a session date of June 3, 1977. So maybe other parts were added by Brian then, too.
As far as the harpsichord sound on "I'll Bet He's Nice" and "Lovin' Feelin'" (and "Airplane"), I think that's a real harpsichord, or an electric harpsichord at least, rather than a clavinet. Earle Mankey has described Brian's recording process for "Airplane" in the pages of David Leaf's "Pet Sounds" fanzine, referring to the instrument as a "harpsichord", and the track sheet notations for these tunes bears that out. Also, in the Adam Webb Dennis Wilson book "Dumb Angel", there's an interview with John Hanlon where he mentions some of the cool instruments they had at Brother, including a "clear plexi-glass electric harpsichord". So maybe it's that instrument?
|
|
Departed
Former Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 13:03:19 GMT -5
As far as the harpsichord sound on "I'll Bet He's Nice" and "Lovin' Feelin'" (and "Airplane")... there's an interview with John Hanlon where he mentions some of the cool instruments they had at Brother, including a "clear plexi-glass electric harpsichord". So maybe it's that instrument? Baldwin electric harpsichords had a clear top.
|
|
|
Post by Mikie on Jan 17, 2020 14:30:52 GMT -5
So as long as I'm here and we're talking about instruments, particularly when I think of "Love you" and Brian practically being a one-man show, what is the "farting synth"? What instrument/make was he using there? A Moog synthesizer? It's like he got a new toy for Christmas and used it a lot in the mid-70's.
|
|
|
Post by Mikie on Jan 17, 2020 14:41:21 GMT -5
So as long as I'm here and we're talking about instruments, particularly when I think of "Love you" and Brian practically being a one-man show, what is the "farting synth"? What instrument/make was he using there? A Moog synthesizer? It's like he got a new toy for Christmas and used it a lot in the mid-70's. Either a MiniMoog or maybe (as some people have speculated) the Moog Taurus bass pedals. One of these days somebody's gotta contact Earle Mankey and find out for certain. Steve Bonilla knows Mankey.
|
|
Departed
Former Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 14:52:03 GMT -5
I haven't seen Earle in ages.
I did use a Baldwin electric harpsichord on one of my recordings. It was at a great little 8 tk place in Sacramento called Moon Studios. I also got to use their Mellotron.
|
|
|
Post by Mikie on Mar 17, 2020 13:05:48 GMT -5
OK, I have a question. A bag of McDonald's hamburgers goes to the one who answers it correctly.
I've always liked hearing Rhonda live in the early 70's. Al (and at times Dennis) switching off on lead vocal. Can't remember Carl singing it, but he probably did a couple of times.
Anyway, on the '73 concert album, I've always loved that searing lead guitar part in the bridge. Who played it?
1. Carl "Clem" Wilson 2. Terence "Blondie" Chaplin 3. Edward "Steady Eddie" Carter 4. William "Billy" Hinsche
|
|
|
Post by craigslowinski on Mar 17, 2020 14:08:53 GMT -5
OK, I have a question. A bag of McDonald's hamburgers goes to the one who answers it correctly. I've always liked hearing Rhonda live in the early 70's. Al (and at times Dennis) switching off on lead vocal. Can't remember Carl singing it, but he probably did a couple of times. Anyway, on the '73 concert album, I've always loved that searing lead guitar part in the bridge. Who played it? 1. Carl "Clem" Wilson 2. Terence "Blondie" Chaplin 3. Edward "Steady Eddie" Carter 4. William "Billy" Hinsche My assumption has always been Blondie, but others have pointed out that the solo is un-Blondie like. So, my next assumption would be that Carl had Smilin' Ed Carter replace the original live solo in the studio. My assumption of it being Blondie live comes from that fact that in the '72 Crystal Palace Bowl footage of the Boys doing the song (with, BTW - Carl on lead vocal, so there ya go!), Blondie can be seen playing guitar while Ed Carter plays bass.
|
|
|
Post by Mikie on Mar 17, 2020 14:57:21 GMT -5
Yes! Carl on lead vocal. Can't see either Ed or Blondie play during the bridge here (Crystal Palace 1972), but it sounds much different anyway than the Rhonda from the "In Concert" album (August 19, 1973 - Nassau Coliseum, Uniondale, NY).
|
|
|
Post by filledeplage on Mar 17, 2020 17:10:30 GMT -5
OK, I have a question. A bag of McDonald's hamburgers goes to the one who answers it correctly. I've always liked hearing Rhonda live in the early 70's. Al (and at times Dennis) switching off on lead vocal. Can't remember Carl singing it, but he probably did a couple of times. Anyway, on the '73 concert album, I've always loved that searing lead guitar part in the bridge. Who played it? 1. Carl "Clem" Wilson 2. Terence "Blondie" Chaplin 3. Edward "Steady Eddie" Carter 4. William "Billy" Hinsche if I had to guess - Ed Carter. Such a badass show - one I would love to have seen! {And Ed Carter does a mean Rhonda lead - with California Surf!}
|
|
|
Post by filledeplage on Mar 18, 2020 8:44:19 GMT -5
OK, I have a question. A bag of McDonald's hamburgers goes to the one who answers it correctly. I've always liked hearing Rhonda live in the early 70's. Al (and at times Dennis) switching off on lead vocal. Can't remember Carl singing it, but he probably did a couple of times. Anyway, on the '73 concert album, I've always loved that searing lead guitar part in the bridge. Who played it? 1. Carl "Clem" Wilson 2. Terence "Blondie" Chaplin 3. Edward "Steady Eddie" Carter 4. William "Billy" Hinsche Well - Mikie! Who is it?
|
|
|
Post by craigslowinski on Mar 18, 2020 11:16:41 GMT -5
Yeah, in the '73 In Concert version, it does seem more Carter-ish than Chaplin-ish. Which would mean Blondie playing bass and Eddie playing lead. But in actual live tapes from that era, the guitar solo seems more Chaplin-ish, which is why I suggested that maybe Carl had Eddie record a new solo in the studio. We see Eddie playing bass live on that song in the late '70s (with Charles Lloyd playing a sax solo and/or Dennis hammering out a piano solo, instead of a guitar solo) until Bruce's return - then we see Bruce playing bass and Eddie playing lead (except of course the Mike Douglas appearance from the beach in Hawaii in late 1980, where they did it with Dennis on drums, Eddie on bass, Bruce on piano, and Mike Meros playing an organ solo).
Bottom line - I'd lean towards it being an overdubbed Ed Carter solo on the live LP.
|
|
|
Post by Mikie on Mar 18, 2020 11:48:29 GMT -5
It's either Blondie or Ed. I think if you played that lick for either one of them right now, they'd more than likely recognize it and know who it is. Carl was adept, but I don't think he played that wailing lead. Billy was mostly on keys during this period; he did pick up a guitar and bass sometimes in the 70's, but he he was more of a piano guy than a guitar player and probably couldn't play it. Billy also played very lively keys on Rhonda in 1972 (as you can hear on the MIC set). I dunno, I know Carl and Moffitt did some overdubs on the tapes, but not so sure with this guitar part. It seems to blend in so well on this live track, played (or mixed) almost in the background and not so up front. Craig could be right, but the jury is still out for a definitive answer. That's why I asked the question.
|
|
|
Post by craigslowinski on Apr 6, 2020 11:53:53 GMT -5
Did Capitol have a 4-track machine by early '63? Reason I ask is I was comparing the Noble Surfer stereo mix to the boots (yeah...quarantine's really got to me) and it comes across as if it's been mixed from four discreet sources. I can't think of any other songs from the era like it: 1 - rhythm guitar & drums 2 - lead guitar & bass 3 - doubled backing vocals 4 - doubled lead vocals & celeste solo The Unsurpassed Masters presentation from the (presumed) second gen tape would make you think the rhythm guitar, drums, backing vocals and celeste were all together... But both their mix and the official stereo mix from the third gen tape have them separate again! Also sounds like the celeste is bleeding heavily between tracks, there's a very odd stereo effect surrounding it. Anyone have any idea what's happening with this thing? I dunno...duophonic effect on the lead vocals/celeste track? Just guessing here, haven't dug it out yet to listen. But I remember being really intrigued by the stereo mixes on that album thirty years ago (!) when listening to the MFP 24-karat gold CD.
|
|
|
Post by Mikie on Apr 6, 2020 12:22:16 GMT -5
Most stereo recordings of the late 1950's to early 1960's were mastered on three-track tape machines. After Capitol's recording studios were remodeled in 1959, I believe they used Ampex 3-track recorders until 1965. Not sure if it had anything to do with sounding different than the rest, but this particular song, "Noble Surfer", recorded at Capitol on February 11, 1963, took 39 takes to complete.
|
|