sloopjohnb
Historian / Researcher
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Post by sloopjohnb on Apr 17, 2022 23:24:52 GMT -5
Engineers also don't have complete control over how they record the music. If Brian says "record this next vocal on the same track", that is what you would have to do.
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Post by John Manning on Apr 19, 2022 9:25:01 GMT -5
There is simply no excuse for having erased a Dennis Wilson lead vocal on this "A Day in the Life of a Tree", or at least making a rough mix first - considering all the other alternate takes and mixes that they did save over the decades. Agree it's unfortunate, but we can't stand over them wagging our fingers saying "there's simply no excuse… (young man?)" 50 years down the line. It's done. Can't be undone.
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Post by boogieboarder on Apr 19, 2022 9:38:38 GMT -5
There is simply no excuse for having erased a Dennis Wilson lead vocal on this "A Day in the Life of a Tree", or at least making a rough mix first - considering all the other alternate takes and mixes that they did save over the decades. Agree it's unfortunate, but we can't stand over them wagging our fingers saying "there's simply no excuse… (young man?)" 50 years down the line. It's done. Can't be undone. Beethoven’s trash can might be interesting. Mine, not so much.
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sloopjohnb
Historian / Researcher
Posts: 252
Likes: 401
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Post by sloopjohnb on Apr 19, 2022 14:32:21 GMT -5
It's very easy to save early takes and alternate vocals nowadays, and most DAWs do that automatically. But on 16-track tape, every new attempt has to be recorded over the previous one. It's just not possible to save every little scrap, and Dennis' vocal on Tree wasn't considered final in any way - erasing it was just like erasing Jack Rieley's earlier cracks at the song. It had to be done in order for another take to be recorded. Creating a mix with each incomplete attempt at a vocal is also a LOT of work, and would completely derail a recording session. It wastes time and tape, and thus money, and wouldn't have been interesting or useful for the band in any way.
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Post by boogieboarder on Apr 19, 2022 19:35:32 GMT -5
It's very easy to save early takes and alternate vocals nowadays, and most DAWs do that automatically. But on 16-track tape, every new attempt has to be recorded over the previous one. It's just not possible to save every little scrap, and Dennis' vocal on Tree wasn't considered final in any way - erasing it was just like erasing Jack Rieley's earlier cracks at the song. It had to be done in order for another take to be recorded. Creating a mix with each incomplete attempt at a vocal is also a LOT of work, and would completely derail a recording session. It wastes time and tape, and thus money, and wouldn't have been interesting or useful for the band in any way. And yet take after take after take of other songs appear on the Sea of Tunes bootleg series.
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sloopjohnb
Historian / Researcher
Posts: 252
Likes: 401
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Post by sloopjohnb on Apr 19, 2022 21:04:03 GMT -5
It's very easy to save early takes and alternate vocals nowadays, and most DAWs do that automatically. But on 16-track tape, every new attempt has to be recorded over the previous one. It's just not possible to save every little scrap, and Dennis' vocal on Tree wasn't considered final in any way - erasing it was just like erasing Jack Rieley's earlier cracks at the song. It had to be done in order for another take to be recorded. Creating a mix with each incomplete attempt at a vocal is also a LOT of work, and would completely derail a recording session. It wastes time and tape, and thus money, and wouldn't have been interesting or useful for the band in any way. And yet take after take after take of other songs appear on the Sea of Tunes bootleg series. Because those takes were recorded while the tapes were being bounced onto newer generations. The only reason they were being "preserved" was because there was live recording happening alongside the mixing. With 16 tracks, that isn't necessary. With 3, it absolutely is.
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sloopjohnb
Historian / Researcher
Posts: 252
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Post by sloopjohnb on Apr 19, 2022 21:11:37 GMT -5
The only early takes that can be preserved on tape are the first things that get recorded to that tape. If you're overdubbing onto another track, and another take is required, you have to rewind the tape, and start again, erasing the previous attempt. The several vocal attempts that you can hear on the Unsurpassed Masters series, mostly from around 1964, were being recorded onto a new generation of tape for the first time, while the other material was simultaneously bounced. Early takes for Tree exist, but it'll just be what was first put down - i.e. Brian on the harmonium.
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Post by craigslowinski on Apr 20, 2022 7:19:39 GMT -5
And yet take after take after take of other songs appear on the Sea of Tunes bootleg series. Because those takes were recorded while the tapes were being bounced onto newer generations. The only reason they were being "preserved" was because there was live recording happening alongside the mixing. With 16 tracks, that isn't necessary. With 3, it absolutely is. And for some reason (fortunately for us), when new takes of vocal doubles were being recorded onto a second-generation 3-track along with a simultaneous bounce to that new tape, they just kept the tape rolling, instead of rewinding for each successive new attempt. THAT'S why multiple vocal overdubs exist on those boots.
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Post by AGD on Apr 20, 2022 7:25:52 GMT -5
I also recall someone who was directly involved saying that Chuck kept a 2-track rolling throughout Brian's Western sessions to log all that was going down in case Brian wanted to refer back. The inference was that it was Bob Norburg.
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Post by WillJC on Apr 20, 2022 7:47:27 GMT -5
I also recall someone who was directly involved saying that Chuck kept a 2-track rolling throughout Brian's Western sessions to log all that was going down in case Brian wanted to refer back. The inference was that it was Bob Norburg. Chuck himself said that he'd often run a mono reel as a keepsake or so he could hear the studio chatter at the back of the room while bored, and Brian let him carry on doing it once he found out. Some of Our Favourite Recording Sessions had to have come from one of those, and the bootleg Rhonda and I Know There's an Answer vocal sessions. Whatever else he did, who knows where it ended up!
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Post by boogieboarder on Apr 20, 2022 10:13:40 GMT -5
I also recall someone who was directly involved saying that Chuck kept a 2-track rolling throughout Brian's Western sessions to log all that was going down in case Brian wanted to refer back. The inference was that it was Bob Norburg. That’s what they should have been doing while trying out different lead singers on “A Day in the life of a Tree,” and “Sail On Sailor.” Didn’t they know there’d be lucrative box sets of outtakes 50 years later?
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Post by Mikie on Apr 20, 2022 13:19:24 GMT -5
Those Sea Of Tunes Unsurpassed Series recordings went from 1962 to 1969 (the Capitol years), so if Britz was running a separate recorder at Western beginning in 1963, this process must have continued into the Lockert/Halverson/Desper years up on Bellagio for us to have a lot of the late 60's alternate/stereo takes available.
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sloopjohnb
Historian / Researcher
Posts: 252
Likes: 401
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Post by sloopjohnb on Apr 20, 2022 13:47:18 GMT -5
Those Sea Of Tunes Unsurpassed Series recordings went from 1962 to 1969 (the Capitol years), so if Britz was running a separate recorder at Western beginning in 1963, this process must have continued into the Lockert/Halverson/Desper years up on Bellagio for us to have a lot of the late 60's alternate/stereo takes available. None of the material on Unsurpassed Masters comes from Chuck's separate recorder. Everything there comes from the tapes used to record the actual music.
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Post by Mikie on Apr 20, 2022 16:00:12 GMT -5
OK, I was confused there for a minute. So with the exception of the "overdub" of the kid talking on SOT Vol. 10 (Party!), it's all off the masters.
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sloopjohnb
Historian / Researcher
Posts: 252
Likes: 401
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Post by sloopjohnb on Apr 20, 2022 16:50:54 GMT -5
OK, I was confused there for a minute. So with the exception of the "overdub" of the kid talking on SOT Vol. 10 (Party!), it's all off the masters. Yes, although is it confirmed that isn't on the Beach Boys master? Sounds like the "party" overdub is ducked there anyways in both the mono and stereo mix.
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Post by Mikie on Apr 20, 2022 17:33:24 GMT -5
I was always under the impression that the kid making noise was associated with the bootlegger. An unintentional mistake during the Party tape transfer.
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Post by nts1drums on Apr 21, 2022 7:51:34 GMT -5
I recently found an image of the original LP credits, which is fascinating, since it only credits David Sandler and Lincoln Mayorga on piano despite the obvious of there being way more than just piano. Keith Allison on bass is not surprising (he played guitar on Monkees records) but seeing his name on any BBs-related appearances shocks me. I’m assuming at this point he was a session musician rather than a band member. But the most important thing in here…is the credit to Carl on this LP. Never in my life have I thought Carl played on this. Given that everyone who played on Good Time went uncredited, that means Carl obviously played on more than just that. On second glance, Carl is given a thanks for the cover of Forever. Thus, my question: does this imply that Carl contributed on Forever, or that he suggested that they cover Forever? www.discogs.com/release/4706311-American-Spring-American-Spring
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Post by Mopp on Apr 21, 2022 8:38:24 GMT -5
I recently found an image of the original LP credits, which is fascinating, since it only credits David Sandler and Lincoln Mayorga on piano despite the obvious of there being way more than just piano. Keith Allison on bass is not surprising (he played guitar on Monkees records) but seeing his name on any BBs-related appearances shocks me. I’m assuming at this point he was a session musician rather than a band member. But the most important thing in here…is the credit to Carl on this LP. Never in my life have I thought Carl played on this. Given that everyone who played on Good Time went uncredited, that means Carl obviously played on more than just that. On second glance, Carl is given a thanks for the cover of Forever. Thus, my question: does this imply that Carl contributed on Forever, or that he suggested that they cover Forever? www.discogs.com/release/4706311-American-Spring-American-SpringCarl sings backing vocals on the Spring version of Forever. EDIT: I also remember hearing that he plays some guitar on that track, but I don't remember any source so that could be a fault of my memory
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Post by John Manning on Apr 25, 2022 12:28:45 GMT -5
I recently found an image of the original LP credits, which is fascinating, since it only credits David Sandler and Lincoln Mayorga on piano despite the obvious of there being way more than just piano. Keith Allison on bass is not surprising (he played guitar on Monkees records) but seeing his name on any BBs-related appearances shocks me. I’m assuming at this point he was a session musician rather than a band member. But the most important thing in here…is the credit to Carl on this LP. Never in my life have I thought Carl played on this. Given that everyone who played on Good Time went uncredited, that means Carl obviously played on more than just that. On second glance, Carl is given a thanks for the cover of Forever. Thus, my question: does this imply that Carl contributed on Forever, or that he suggested that they cover Forever? www.discogs.com/release/4706311-American-Spring-American-SpringCarl sings backing vocals on the Spring version of Forever. EDIT: I also remember hearing that he plays some guitar on that track, but I don't remember any source so that could be a fault of my memory if memory serves he’s plainly audible too (haven’t played it since yesterday!)
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Post by jasonaustin on Apr 26, 2022 2:13:09 GMT -5
Has the date of the finalization of Dennis and Carole Freedman's divorce proceedings ever surfaced? I've seen January 14, 1968 listed on a couple of public records sites, but have no idea as to the accuracy of that.
Bonus follow-up question: Is it true that they also divorced for a spell in 1966 before remarrying?
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Post by AGD on Apr 26, 2022 14:31:02 GMT -5
That date is correct. It was Karen that Dennis divorced, remarried then divorced again.
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Post by Rick Bartlett on May 1, 2022 12:46:21 GMT -5
McDonald's started opening stores in California in the 1940's, but are now a worldwide known food business.
Did The Beach Boys ever eat or hang out there in the early days?
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Post by boogieboarder on May 1, 2022 13:30:03 GMT -5
McDonald's started opening stores in California in the 1940's, but are now a worldwide known food business.
Did The Beach Boys ever eat or hang out there in the early days?
The Beach Boys probably would have gone to the local Fosters Freeze, in Hawthorne, less than a mile from the Wilson brothers’ boyhood home. I personally tend to doubt the Beach Boys would have eaten or hung out at McDonalds in the early days. Their 8 cent hamburgers in the early 60s were far inferior to local hamburger joints, or other chains such as A&W, or Bob's Big Boy.
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Post by craigslowinski on May 1, 2022 13:37:47 GMT -5
McDonald's started opening stores in California in the 1940's, but are now a worldwide known food business.
Did The Beach Boys ever eat or hang out there in the early days?
The Beach Boys probably would have gone to the local Fosters Freeze, in Hawthorne, less than a mile from the Wilson brothers’ boyhood home. I personally tend to doubt the Beach Boys would have eaten or hung out at McDonalds in the early days. Their 8 cent hamburgers in the early 60s were far inferior to local hamburger joints, or other chains such as A&W, or Bob's Big Boy. And yet, the Big Mac was a good enough burger for Dennis to ply Brian with an endless supply of in the early '80s, provided the result was a new song! Personally, I prefer the Quarter Pounder to the Big Mac.
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Post by boogieboarder on May 1, 2022 19:23:08 GMT -5
The Beach Boys probably would have gone to the local Fosters Freeze, in Hawthorne, less than a mile from the Wilson brothers’ boyhood home. I personally tend to doubt the Beach Boys would have eaten or hung out at McDonalds in the early days. Their 8 cent hamburgers in the early 60s were far inferior to local hamburger joints, or other chains such as A&W, or Bob's Big Boy. And yet, the Big Mac was a good enough burger for Dennis to ply Brian with an endless supply of in the early '80s, provided the result was a new song! Personally, I prefer the Quarter Pounder to the Big Mac. By the 1980s, the burger scene had changed quite a bit. McDonalds stores were everywhere.
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