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Post by CorkOnTheOcean on Apr 13, 2022 15:50:16 GMT -5
I started this over at the other forum after posting The Beach Boys in the 1950 US Census, but wanted to see what others think about it. They were counted on May 4, 1950. Murray's occupation (what he was supposedly doing the week before) was listed as "Painter", industry being "Contractors". I did some research to see if I could find any other source, and ended up down the rabbit hole of the fall 1961 Mexico trip. I found some California Arriving Passenger cards for Murry, Audree, and a British couple, Tom and Nellie Berry, coming back to LA from Mexico City on CMA/MX 900 (Compañía Mexicana de Aviación) on Wednesday, November 8, 1961. Tom and Nellie Berry live at Shenstone Beechwood, Halifax, Yorkshire, England. Their cards say their US address is 1301 W 119th (illegible) Hawthorne. Tom was born 21 Jan 1898 in Halifax, Nellie 10 Jul 1900. Working back from there, I found a New York Passenger card for the same Tom Berry arriving May 14, 1959. He lists his US address as Able Machinery Co Los Angeles. I also found Tom, Nellie, and a son Frank in the 1939 England and Wales Register. Same birthdates, on Shenstone Beechwood, Halifax. Tom's occupation says "Foreman Engineer Machine Tools...". Tom Berry and Nellie Bairstow were married in Halifax first quarter of 1924. Their son Frank Berry was born in July 1927. They may have another son Harry Bairstow Berry born June 1925. These two, Frank and Harry Berry, are listed as company directors for Binns & Berry in a Yorkshire Companies page, and are interviewed in an article I found in a February 1, 1983 edition of Financial Times. Binns & Berry was founded in 1898 by Ned Binns and Tom and Harry Berry - obviously a different Tom and Harry from the aforementioned given the year. Sometimes comes up as Binns & Berry Brothers. As far as I can tell, Tom and Nellie Berry didn't move to California. Tom died in 1987, Nellie in 1981, both in Halifax. I've seen the SS 2010 thread discussing the trip, and quotes/info pertaining to it in three books: Ian Whitcomb's "Rock Odyssey: A Chronicle of the Sixties" 1983; Steve Gaines "Heroes And Villains: The True Story Of The Beach Boys" 1986; and James B. Murphy's "Becoming the Beach Boys, 1961-1963" 2015. The gist of the story seems to be that sometime (nobody seems to know) in the fall of 1961, Murry, Audree, a British business associate and his wife went to Mexico. They left the boys with money which they spent on equipment, they came back and heard Surfin' etc. The rest is history. The business associate was supposedly "Barry Haven" and his wife. I don't see if she's ever named anywhere. He's a U.S. sales rep for lathe manufacturer Binns & Berry in England, relocating to California and is staying with the Wilsons while looking for a place. The "Havens" also have a son "Frankie". They apparently settled in the Palos Verdes Peninsula. Most of this I read in excerpts of Whitcomb's 1983 Rock Oddyssey book. I only just started, but I'm not finding anything for "Barry Haven" or "Frank or Frankie Haven" in California or England. So I have a number of multi-part questions. 1) Were the 1986 Heroes and 2015 Becoming books' sources for "Barry Haven" the 1983 book? Is the 1983 Rock Odyssey book the original source for "Barry Haven"? Are there any other independent sources interviewing or quoting "Barry Haven"? 2) Is this November 8, 1961 return from a Mexico trip completely different from the trip of lore? Was this Murry's go-to for schmoozing with business associates? How likely is it that "Barry Haven" of Binns & Berry comes to CA from England with his wife, goes to Mexico City with the Wilsons, then weeks later, another Barry/Berry machinist and his wife, Tom and Nellie, come from Halifax to CA and the Wilsons again go to Mexico City? What does everyone think? Have I gone wrong, anyone have additional details?
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Post by Cam Mott on Apr 13, 2022 16:27:28 GMT -5
Well done.
There could be multiple trips but this has got to be excellent candidate. Look forward to the discussions.
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Post by AGD on Apr 13, 2022 17:23:24 GMT -5
The November 8th 1961 date is problematic, as apparently by then, "Surfin'" had already been written and demoed at the Morgan's home studio (early October-ish) and possibly recorded at World Pacific (early November-ish), so that can't have been the trip from which Murry returned and blew his stack.
It's pretty obvious to me that "Barry Haven" and Tom Berry are the same person. Names get garbled. Time for a little light geneology...
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Post by Mikie on Apr 13, 2022 17:32:00 GMT -5
I'd like to have Jim Murphy chime in on this one.....
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Post by CorkOnTheOcean on Apr 13, 2022 17:45:23 GMT -5
Right, Nov 8 seems late, but the first page in that sequence for CMA 900 says Nov (illegible blob, but single digit) 1961, and it and all the subsequent passenger cards for flight 900 are stamped "IMM AND NATZ SERVICE LOS ANGELES CAL (then the number 384 or 235) ADMITTED NOV 8, 1961".
That would be quite a name garble. I'm still looking around for Havens and Berrys and Barrys in Palos Verdes as well as the rest of Southern California, in the 1960's, when the visits to the house were to have taken place in the Rock Odyssey book.
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sloopjohnb
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Post by sloopjohnb on Apr 13, 2022 18:18:30 GMT -5
November 8 seems right. That means the boys had just rented the upright bass and drums, and the proper Surfin' session happened soon afterwards.
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sloopjohnb
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Post by sloopjohnb on Apr 13, 2022 19:50:25 GMT -5
The November 8th 1961 date is problematic, as apparently by then, "Surfin'" had already been written and demoed at the Morgan's home studio (early October-ish) and possibly recorded at World Pacific (early November-ish), so that can't have been the trip from which Murry returned and blew his stack. It's pretty obvious to me that "Barry Haven" and Tom Berry are the same person. Names get garbled. Time for a little light geneology... Keep in mind that the trip and instrument purchasing happened after the first session and the home demo tape, and that "early November-ish" is an educated guess based on the release date. It's very possible, and now seemingly confirmed, that the instruments were rented before November 8, the Wilson parents returned on that date, and the World Pacific session was booked as soon as possible, with the single releasing as soon as possible after that.
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Post by CorkOnTheOcean on Apr 13, 2022 20:33:35 GMT -5
Here are the images of the arrival card and the Mexicana De Aviacion General Declaration form preceding the passenger cards. It says there are 36 aboard, and I believe there are 36 cards that follow, including Murry, Audree, and Tom and Nellie Berry. Some cards and forms in this overall collection look great - these are pretty brutal and warped. The scans are probably faithful - I'll bet some of the original microfilm images were poorly made, but you can still make out that it's coming from Mexico, arriving in Los Angeles on November 8th, 1961. In addition to the arrival card being warped, the box next to "total aboard 36" - the date box - might have been hard to read anyway. Even on the nice images, they tended to write the date diagonally, top left to bottom right with long /, and a lot of the ink bled together. Copied from the Original Microfilm Source: The National Archives at Washington, D.C.; Washington, D.C.; Passenger & Crew Manifests of Airplanes Arriving at Los Angeles, California; NAI Number: 2788930; Record Group Title: Records of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, 1787-2009; Record Group Number: 85 Description NARA Roll Number: 181 Attachments:
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Post by AGD on Apr 14, 2022 0:27:46 GMT -5
One thing it sure as hell blows a hole in is the long-held belief that said trip was over the Labor Day weekend. There's also the September 15th songwriters contract between Brian & Mike and Guild Music (again, long held to have been signed after the initial "Surfin'" demo session at the Morgan's home).
Ah, if only they'd filled out an AFM sheet for the first World Pacific session...
Does anyone else here recall the quote from "Barry Haven" about coming back to the band playing "Surfin'" and saying it was "darling", "made you feel like relaxay-vousing" or some such ?
The garbled name bit: I mean Barry/Berry. It's very unlikely that in the space of a few months Murry & Audree went to Mexico twice with people from the company he imported his lathes from, one called Barry, the other with the surname Berry. Bit too coincidental for my cynical eye.
As for Tom Berry's USA adress being stated as "1301 W 119th (illegible) Hawthorne"... could that be a mistake for 3701 W. 119th Street, that is Murry's home ? I've checked for a Barry Haven registered as being born in England and Wales between 1890 and 1910. Nothing.
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Post by AGD on Apr 14, 2022 1:12:52 GMT -5
The November 8th 1961 date is problematic, as apparently by then, "Surfin'" had already been written and demoed at the Morgan's home studio (early October-ish) and possibly recorded at World Pacific (early November-ish), so that can't have been the trip from which Murry returned and blew his stack. It's pretty obvious to me that "Barry Haven" and Tom Berry are the same person. Names get garbled. Time for a little light geneology... Keep in mind that the trip and instrument purchasing happened after the first session and the home demo tape, and that "early November-ish" is an educated guess based on the release date. It's very possible, and now seemingly confirmed, that the instruments were rented before November 8, the Wilson parents returned on that date, and the World Pacific session was booked as soon as possible, with the single releasing as soon as possible after that. Agreed... but that's a helluva lot of wasted time between signing the Guild contract on 9/15/61 and the Mexico trip. Doesn't make sense... but then, this is The Beach Boys: check your logic at the door.
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Post by Cam Mott on Apr 14, 2022 5:59:42 GMT -5
I wonder what the surviving Boys remember about it?
We need a separate thread for Cork's 1950 Census research too. Please.
Edit RE. addresses:
The October 1961 Los Angeles phone directory shows no listing for 1301 W. 119th Street jumping from 1246 to 1303. Could have just been that it was an address without a phone but even today addresses jump from 1252 to 1303 across street next door to each other.
There is no listing for 3701 W. 119th Street either with listings ending at 3525 W. 119th in Inglewood.
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sloopjohnb
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Post by sloopjohnb on Apr 14, 2022 8:51:08 GMT -5
Keep in mind that the trip and instrument purchasing happened after the first session and the home demo tape, and that "early November-ish" is an educated guess based on the release date. It's very possible, and now seemingly confirmed, that the instruments were rented before November 8, the Wilson parents returned on that date, and the World Pacific session was booked as soon as possible, with the single releasing as soon as possible after that. Agreed... but that's a helluva lot of wasted time between signing the Guild contract on 9/15/61 and the Mexico trip. Doesn't make sense... but then, this is The Beach Boys: check your logic at the door. It is a bit weird, but one thing that was stopping them from properly recording it was the lack of real instruments... could be that once Murry and Audree went away (some time in early November, back on the 8th), Brian got impatient. That's when they drove to see Al's mom and audition for her, she gave them the money for the upright bass, and they used some of the food money for the snare, cymbal, brushes, and microphone. Then there's just enough time for them to all practice with the addition of bass & drums, give their little neighborhood concert, and then record right away at World Pacific (after the parents' return).
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Post by AGD on Apr 14, 2022 10:10:20 GMT -5
So (confirmed dates in bold)...
9/15 - Brian & Mike sign a sonwriting contract with Guild Music (a Friday) 10/?? - (early) the band demo "Surfin'" at the Morgan's home studio 10/?? - (late) Murry & Audree take their English friends to Mexico: instruments are hired, songs are rehearsed, a legend is born
11/8 - Murry & co return (a Wednesday) 11/? - early (presumably after the 8th, presumably not a school day) 1st Morgan session at World Pacific 11/27 - "Surfin'/Luau" released on Candix 331 (a Monday)
The gap between the demo session and the instruments being hired still bothers me: if Brian was that impatient, he'd find the cash somehow... and are we to believe that for most of September and all of October, Murry somehow didn't hear his boys rehearsing "Surfin'" at least once ? Playing Devil's Advocate here, suggestions welcomed.
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 14, 2022 10:26:27 GMT -5
So (confirmed dates in bold)...
9/15 - Brian & Mike sign a sonwriting contract with Guild Music (a Friday) 10/?? - (early) the band demo "Surfin'" at the Morgan's home studio 10/?? - (late) Murry & Audree take their English friends to Mexico: instruments are hired, songs are rehearsed, a legend is born
11/8 - Murry & co return (a Wednesday) 11/? - early (presumably after the 8th, presumably not a school day) 1st Morgan session at World Pacific 11/27 - "Surfin'/Luau" released on Candix 331 (a Monday)
The gap between the demo session and the instruments being hired still bothers me: if Brian was that impatient, he'd find the cash somehow... and are we to believe that for most of September and all of October, Murry somehow didn't hear his boys rehearsing "Surfin'" at least once ? Playing Devil's Advocate here, suggestions welcomed.
Could that November date be what we call Veteran’s Day (no school) and others call Armistice Day? It has always been commemorated on November 11th.
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Post by AGD on Apr 14, 2022 10:32:01 GMT -5
Veteran's Day 1961 was a Saturday, so it was "observed" on Friday the 10th. Could be.
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bookofb
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Post by bookofb on Apr 14, 2022 10:33:05 GMT -5
So (confirmed dates in bold)...
9/15 - Brian & Mike sign a sonwriting contract with Guild Music (a Friday) 10/?? - (early) the band demo "Surfin'" at the Morgan's home studio 10/?? - (late) Murry & Audree take their English friends to Mexico: instruments are hired, songs are rehearsed, a legend is born
11/8 - Murry & co return (a Wednesday) 11/? - early (presumably after the 8th, presumably not a school day) 1st Morgan session at World Pacific 11/27 - "Surfin'/Luau" released on Candix 331 (a Monday)
The gap between the demo session and the instruments being hired still bothers me: if Brian was that impatient, he'd find the cash somehow... and are we to believe that for most of September and all of October, Murry somehow didn't hear his boys rehearsing "Surfin'" at least once ? Playing Devil's Advocate here, suggestions welcomed.
...and so, according to this timeline, where do we place the Morgan/Guild session at which (1) all five Beach Boys are present; (2) Dennis suggests the idea about the surfing song; and (3) the Morgans respond with "that's a good idea, come back when you have the surfing song written"? If that event occurred (as we must assume it did, as it's been repeated a million times including by the band members), could that still have occurred around Labor Day (ie late August-Early September) It seems so? And that's why "Labor Day" has always been part of the story?
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Post by CorkOnTheOcean on Apr 14, 2022 10:36:08 GMT -5
I wonder what the surviving Boys remember about it? We need a separate thread for Cork's 1950 Census research too. Please. Edit RE. addresses: The October 1961 Los Angeles phone directory shows no listing for 1301 W. 119th Street jumping from 1246 to 1303. Could have just been that it was an address without a phone but even today addresses jump from 1252 to 1303 across street next door to each other. There is no listing for 3701 W. 119th Street either with listings ending at 3525 W. 119th in Inglewood. Yeah, I can't find any 1301 W 119th anywhere either. Maybe the Berrys just butchered 3701? I'm not seeing that this section of Hawthorne is covered in the City Directories available to me - not the Los Angeles ones, Inglewood-Lennox, Torrance. Should be covered in the Inglewood ones I'd think, no?
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Post by Cam Mott on Apr 14, 2022 10:49:26 GMT -5
I wonder what the surviving Boys remember about it? We need a separate thread for Cork's 1950 Census research too. Please. Edit RE. addresses: The October 1961 Los Angeles phone directory shows no listing for 1301 W. 119th Street jumping from 1246 to 1303. Could have just been that it was an address without a phone but even today addresses jump from 1252 to 1303 across street next door to each other. There is no listing for 3701 W. 119th Street either with listings ending at 3525 W. 119th in Inglewood. Yeah, I can't find any 1301 W 119th anywhere either. Maybe the Berrys just butchered 3701? I'm not seeing that this section of Hawthorne is covered in the City Directories available to me - not the Los Angeles ones, Inglewood-Lennox, Torrance. Should be covered in the Inglewood ones I'd think, no? Not even in 1973.
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Post by CorkOnTheOcean on Apr 14, 2022 11:04:28 GMT -5
Yeah, I can't find any 1301 W 119th anywhere either. Maybe the Berrys just butchered 3701? I'm not seeing that this section of Hawthorne is covered in the City Directories available to me - not the Los Angeles ones, Inglewood-Lennox, Torrance. Should be covered in the Inglewood ones I'd think, no? Not even in 1973. By then you can find Murry in the Whittier Directory, and Audree in 1974. It's like that section of Hawthorne didn't exist, at least in anything I'm seeing.
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Post by AGD on Apr 14, 2022 11:34:31 GMT -5
I wonder what the surviving Boys remember about it? We need a separate thread for Cork's 1950 Census research too. Please. Edit RE. addresses: The October 1961 Los Angeles phone directory shows no listing for 1301 W. 119th Street jumping from 1246 to 1303. Could have just been that it was an address without a phone but even today addresses jump from 1252 to 1303 across street next door to each other. There is no listing for 3701 W. 119th Street either with listings ending at 3525 W. 119th in Inglewood. Yeah, I can't find any 1301 W 119th anywhere either. Maybe the Berrys just butchered 3701? I'm not seeing that this section of Hawthorne is covered in the City Directories available to me - not the Los Angeles ones, Inglewood-Lennox, Torrance. Should be covered in the Inglewood ones I'd think, no? Someone sure did: note that the Wilson's handwritten addresses are correct, but the typewritten ones aren't (we're presuming). The weight of evidence seems to be that there never was a 1301 W. 119th Street. Silly mistakes happen. I've seen a label with "Wendy" credited to Friedman.
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sloopjohnb
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Post by sloopjohnb on Apr 14, 2022 13:11:27 GMT -5
So (confirmed dates in bold)...
9/15 - Brian & Mike sign a sonwriting contract with Guild Music (a Friday) 10/?? - (early) the band demo "Surfin'" at the Morgan's home studio 10/?? - (late) Murry & Audree take their English friends to Mexico: instruments are hired, songs are rehearsed, a legend is born
11/8 - Murry & co return (a Wednesday) 11/? - early (presumably after the 8th, presumably not a school day) 1st Morgan session at World Pacific 11/27 - "Surfin'/Luau" released on Candix 331 (a Monday)
The gap between the demo session and the instruments being hired still bothers me: if Brian was that impatient, he'd find the cash somehow... and are we to believe that for most of September and all of October, Murry somehow didn't hear his boys rehearsing "Surfin'" at least once ? Playing Devil's Advocate here, suggestions welcomed.
I think the solution to this is that the return from the Mexico trip wasn’t the first time Murry heard Surfin, and that the story was exaggerated in that way… but that it was the first time he heard the 5 sing and play their instruments at the same time. It was probably this that impressed him, as there seems to be some time between the conception + vocal rehearsals of Surfin, and this event. The demo session, many rehearsals, and contract signing (which Murry had to co-sign) all definitely happened before bass and drums entered the equation.
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Post by AGD on Apr 14, 2022 13:36:27 GMT -5
I distinctly recall Dennis saying to an interviewer (Robert W. Morgan ?) that his parents went to England. Those wacky Wilsons, huh ?
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Post by John Manning on Apr 14, 2022 14:40:57 GMT -5
I used to live about 500 yards (as the crow cries) from Grantown Road where Binns & Berry’s Crown Works was based. Company seems to have been dissolved a couple of decades ago, though.
One remaining director – William Carl Griffiths – is listed on the government’s Companies House website. His correspondence address is in a village between my current home and my parents’ place.
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Post by CorkOnTheOcean on Apr 14, 2022 15:21:37 GMT -5
I used to live about 500 yards (as the crow cries) from Grantown Road where Binns & Berry’s Crown Works was based. Company seems to have been dissolved a couple of decades ago, though. One remaining director – William Carl Griffiths – is listed on the government’s Companies House website. His correspondence address is in a village between my current home and my parents’ place. I found a listing for them on yorkshirecompanies and e-mailed Michael Berry for clarification. Hope to hear back. I'm pretty sure it's the same Michael that is mentioned in the 1983 Financial Times article as tooling around the shop when he was a kid. Also found a 1952 obituary for Tom Berry, the Tom who was a co-founder of Binns & Berry, in the Halifax Evening Courier. In it, he is listed as an "uncle of Tom Berry, who is associated with the firm". I believe this would be the Tom Berry that went to Mexico, and if so, confirms he did work for Binns & Berry, and would therefore most likely be "Barry Haven". Too bad we can't ask Ian Whitcomb. Just a wild guess, but maybe they didn't want him using their real names, and he took the surname Berry and made it the first name, Barry, last name Haven, as in a place of safety/shelter. A play on words?
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Post by AGD on Apr 14, 2022 15:49:22 GMT -5
I used to live about 500 yards (as the crow cries) from Grantown Road where Binns & Berry’s Crown Works was based. Company seems to have been dissolved a couple of decades ago, though. One remaining director – William Carl Griffiths – is listed on the government’s Companies House website. His correspondence address is in a village between my current home and my parents’ place. I found a listing for them on yorkshirecompanies and e-mailed Michael Berry for clarification. Hope to hear back. I'm pretty sure it's the same Michael that is mentioned in the 1983 Financial Times article as tooling around the shop when he was a kid. Also found a 1952 obituary for Tom Berry, the Tom who was a co-founder of Binns & Berry, in the Halifax Evening Courier. In it, he is listed as an " uncle of Tom Berry, who is associated with the firm". I believe this would be the Tom Berry that went to Mexico, and if so, confirms he did work for Binns & Berry, and would therefore most likely be "Barry Haven". Too bad we can't ask Ian Whitcomb. Just a wild guess, but maybe they didn't want him using their real names, and he took the surname Berry and made it the first name, Barry, last name Haven, as in a place of safety/shelter. A play on words? Might that indicate that young Tom's father was Harry Berry ? No, his father was Frank... who was a brother of one Tom Berry.
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