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Post by CorkOnTheOcean on Apr 18, 2022 12:36:01 GMT -5
Just wondering aloud... might it be possible to discover when the Wilsons & the Berrys flew to Mexico, or when the Berrys entered and left the USA ? Looks like by ship to New York, last port in France. Arrived in NY on October 24, 1961. Attachments:
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Post by AGD on Apr 18, 2022 12:43:16 GMT -5
And then, I'm guessing, they flew to LA ?
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Post by CorkOnTheOcean on Apr 18, 2022 13:00:18 GMT -5
And then, I'm guessing, they flew to LA ? Most likely. Unfortunately I believe that CA Arriving Passenger database the Mexico to LA cards were found in is only international travel, not domestic. Otherwise there'd probably be a billion plus images in it. I'll see if I can find any more of the Berry's movements, but not seeing much.
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Post by Cam Mott on Apr 18, 2022 13:23:03 GMT -5
Just wondering aloud... might it be possible to discover when the Wilsons & the Berrys flew to Mexico, or when the Berrys entered and left the USA ? Looks like by ship to New York, last port in France. Arrived in NY on October 24, 1961. Hot damn, that puts a pretty narrow two week window on the Mexico vaca, at least for the Berrys.
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Post by boogieboarder on Apr 18, 2022 13:39:04 GMT -5
If the story remembered by The Beach Boys and/or family about the rental of musical instruments was during a holiday weekend, keep in mind that Election Day in 1961 (Nov 7), is not a holiday, nor it is a weekend, so no one would be returning home on Nov. 8 after a holiday weekend had occurred. Also, for accuracy, Veterans Day (Nov.11) used to be called Armistice Day (celebrating veterans of World War I - which itself was called The Great War before World War II), but was officially changed from Armistice Day to Veterans Day by President Eisenhower in 1954. Election Day 1961 was a Tuesday. Exactly. Election days in the United States are always on Tuesdays.
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Post by AGD on Apr 18, 2022 15:44:05 GMT -5
The earliest mention of the Mexico trip I can find thus far was in the Rolling Stone article "The Healing Of Brother Brian" (11/4/76), where Audree said this:
"My husband was in the machinery business, big lathes from England, and the people from whom he imported them were here to visit us. And we took them to Mexico City. When we left, the refrigerator was completely stocked and we gave the boys enough money to buy whatever else they needed. We came back and here they had gone out and rented a bass, a big standup, as tall as Al for sure, and drums and a microphone. They had used every bit of their food money. And they said, “We want to play something for you.”"
Which pretty much blows Whitcomb's "Barry Haven" nonsense clean out of the water.
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Post by Paul JB on Apr 18, 2022 20:51:29 GMT -5
The earliest mention of the Mexico trip I can find thus far was in the Rolling Stone article "The Healing Of Brother Brian" (11/4/76), where Audree said this: "My husband was in the machinery business, big lathes from England, and the people from whom he imported them were here to visit us. And we took them to Mexico City. When we left, the refrigerator was completely stocked and we gave the boys enough money to buy whatever else they needed. We came back and here they had gone out and rented a bass, a big standup, as tall as Al for sure, and drums and a microphone. They had used every bit of their food money. And they said, “We want to play something for you.”" Which pretty much blows Whitcomb's "Barry Haven" nonsense clean out of the water. When was the first known mention of Labor Day used in association with this tale ..or in more general terms, why is it that a Holiday is connected to the timeline? I’m not recalling myself and in all of these pages it’s escaping me why Veterans Day or anything like it should be considered. Seems to me that this new info has put the timeframe for the rental equipment in a small window leading up to November 8th and therefore why does any holiday need to be associated with that? Maybe Murry traveled to England or something around Labor Day and that got mixed up over the years with the Mexico trip? Just trying to figure out why any holiday would be part of the story now that the Mexico timeline looks to be a solid fact. Great thread.
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Post by Emdeeh on Apr 18, 2022 23:05:59 GMT -5
I keep wondering if someone said they were "on holiday" (on vacation) instead of it taking place on a holiday.
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Post by AGD on Apr 19, 2022 2:28:06 GMT -5
Just back from the east wing of Bellagio Towers (that's where my Beach Boys reference library and archives are: the main library is, of course, in the west wing) and the earliest reference I can find that might be taken as inferring the Mexico trip was over the Labor Day weekend is in John Tobler's 1977 The Beach Boys.
"The big chance... came in September 1961 when Murry and Audree Wilson took an extended holiday in Mexico City..."
First mention thus far of September: maybe someone saw that, the "extended" bit and assumed it was the Labor Day weekend.
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Post by AGD on Apr 19, 2022 2:55:55 GMT -5
Revised timeline (confirmed events in bold): 9/15 - Brian & Mike sign a songwriting contract with Guild Music 10/?? - Morgan demo session (early in the month)* 10/24 - The Berrys arrive in New York on the Queen Mary 11/8 - The Wilsons & The Berrys return from Mexico 11/?? - first Morgan session at World Pacific (or Stereo Masters ?) (after the 9th, obvs)* 11/27 - Surfin'/Luau released on Candix 331
* If I may quote myself from 10452:
"The previously assigned dates of September 15th and October 3rd to these sessions are almost certainly incorrect, as no contemporary documentation exists. Brian & Mike signed a songwriting contract with Guild on September 15th and it was long assumed that this took place the same day as the demo session - but there's no proof. The three songs on the first Morgan session were retroactively included on the AFM contract for the second Morgan session, some three months after the "Surfin'/Luau" single was released. Jim Murphy's excellent investigation into the band's early years, Becoming The Beach Boys 1961-1963 makes a strong case for the dates listed here as being the more accurate."
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Post by AGD on Apr 19, 2022 3:02:32 GMT -5
When was the first known mention of Labor Day used in association with this tale ..or in more general terms, why is it that a Holiday is connected to the timeline? I’m not recalling myself and in all of these pages it’s escaping me why Veterans Day or anything like it should be considered. Seems to me that this new info has put the timeframe for the rental equipment in a small window leading up to November 8th and therefore why does any holiday need to be associated with that? Maybe Murry traveled to England or something around Labor Day and that got mixed up over the years with the Mexico trip? Just trying to figure out why any holiday would be part of the story now that the Mexico timeline looks to be a solid fact. Great thread. That is a superb observation... and it just so happens that Murry did travel for business to the UK (and Paris) September 4th-19th 1959. Labor Day that year was September 7th. I'm guessing the Berrys put him up and he said something like "come out and see us in California some time". And they did.
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Post by Paul JB on Apr 19, 2022 8:35:00 GMT -5
I distinctly recall Dennis saying to an interviewer (Robert W. Morgan ?) that his parents went to England. Those wacky Wilsons, huh ? Ah ha!!! Very good Andrew. And then your other comment above fits in as well. We could still both be wrong but… pretty compelling evidence, and mixing up years and events is human nature. Another piece of Jim’s puzzle? This is like a treasure hunt with no chest of gold.
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Post by AGD on Apr 20, 2022 1:12:37 GMT -5
I distinctly recall Dennis saying to an interviewer (Robert W. Morgan ?) that his parents went to England. Those wacky Wilsons, huh ? Ah ha!!! Very good Andrew. And then your other comment above fits in as well. We could still both be wrong but… pretty compelling evidence, and mixing up years and events is human nature. Another piece of Jim’s puzzle? This is like a treasure hunt with no chest of gold. Oh, but there is: it's called "the truth". Your heard that from The Sauce, consider it carefully. Only a fool would think otherwise.
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Post by Cam Mott on Apr 21, 2022 9:27:01 GMT -5
Thanks to Cork for turning this, it was fun to watch.
Reminded me of the turning of Al and the dental school back in the olden times of the Wheeler board.
Was it the Wheeler board? (thoughtfully strokes chin...both of them)
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Post by AGD on Apr 21, 2022 15:57:49 GMT -5
Think it was Cabinessence. That was Elliott & I both getting the same idea at the same time: ask Ferris U for his admission dates. He posted it first, but technically I got the answer first as when he called (I emailed) the admissions clerk, she'd just dug the info out to reply to me. Must have wondered why all the interest in the same guy 40 years ago. Fun times.
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Post by AGD on Sept 26, 2023 1:12:33 GMT -5
Revised timeline (confirmed events in bold): 9/15 - Brian & Mike sign a songwriting contract with Guild Music 10/?? - Morgan demo session (early in the month)* 10/24 - The Berrys arrive in New York on the Queen Mary 11/8 - The Wilsons & The Berrys return from Mexico 11/?? - first Morgan session at World Pacific (or Stereo Masters ?) (after the 9th, obvs)* 11/27 - Surfin'/Luau released on Candix 331
* If I may quote myself from 10452:
"The previously assigned dates of September 15th and October 3rd to these sessions are almost certainly incorrect, as no contemporary documentation exists. Brian & Mike signed a songwriting contract with Guild on September 15th and it was long assumed that this took place the same day as the demo session - but there's no proof. The three songs on the first Morgan session were retroactively included on the AFM contract for the second Morgan session, some three months after the "Surfin'/Luau" single was released. Jim Murphy's excellent investigation into the band's early years, Becoming The Beach Boys 1961-1963 makes a strong case for the dates listed here as being the more accurate."
Just realised there's a problem with the October demo date: if Audree's 1976 Rolling Stone recollection is reliable -
"My husband was in the machinery business, big lathes from England, and the people from whom he imported them were here to visit us. And we took them to Mexico City. When we left, the refrigerator was completely stocked and we gave the boys enough money to buy whatever else they needed. We came back and here they had gone out and rented a bass, a big standup, as tall as Al for sure, and drums and a microphone. They had used every bit of their food money. And they said, “We want to play something for you.”"
- then the first they knew about "Surfin'" was in early November. Thoughts anyone?
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Post by ian on Sept 26, 2023 7:04:42 GMT -5
Well…first off, over time, I’ve learned that people often goof up the details when doing interviews-remember they are not under oath and not everyone has perfect recall. Second-Murphy has posited that Al may not have reconnected with Brian till October and that likely Al did not take part in the demo, though he is on the actual recording. It seems likely that Audree would have heard the demo but maybe not….or maybe the November party stuck out more in her mind.
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Post by WillJC on Sept 26, 2023 7:07:54 GMT -5
Considering the songwriting contract was signed in September with Murry's signature, and there's a lyric sheet from October, Audree would've heard it. It's impossible that she would've been unaware of the song until then. People mix things up in interviews. Returning from Mexico would've been her first time hearing them rehearsed as a band with instruments other than Carl's guitar, though.
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Departed
Former Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2023 7:25:46 GMT -5
I think Brian wrote this tune and taught it to the guys at the organ.
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west
Kahuna
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Post by west on Sept 26, 2023 9:48:07 GMT -5
Well…first off, over time, I’ve learned that people often goof up the details when doing interviews-remember they are not under oath and not everyone has perfect recall. Second-Murphy has posited that Al may not have reconnected with Brian till October and that likely Al did not take part in the demo, though he is on the actual recording. It seems likely that Audree would have heard the demo but maybe not….or maybe the November party stuck out more in her mind. If you listen to the 'Surfin rehearsal,' after one of the times laughter breaks up the song, you can hear Brian threaten that he'll get Al Jardine in there. So yeah, I'm assuming Al wasn't there for the demos. If you listen to the Made in California version of the rehearsal, listen around the 2:15 mark.
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Post by AGD on Sept 26, 2023 10:10:56 GMT -5
Been a looooong time since I've listened to that recording, but my recollection is that it was recorded on the legendary Wollensak in the music room at 3701.
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Post by WillJC on Sept 26, 2023 10:42:14 GMT -5
The home rehearsal was Al-less and likely after Brian and Mike had signed a songwriter's contract on Sep 15 (implied by credit arguments), but Brian had already reconnected with Al by that time and started bringing him to the house to sing with Carl and Mike, and Al had brought them to the meeting with the Morgans that instigated writing Surfin' in the first place. Al doesn't do anything on the subsequent Surfin' demo recorded in Hite's home studio, but he was back in the fold after a brief absence and present at that session, singing on Lavender.
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Post by newbbfan on Sept 26, 2023 11:19:56 GMT -5
If I may borrow from the John Ford classic, This is the West sir, when the legend becomes fact, print the legend
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Post by ian on Sept 26, 2023 19:25:20 GMT -5
Well, as Jim noted, Brian could not have reconnected with Al Any earlier than September 11 1961, which is when the El Camino school year started.
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Post by AGD on Sept 27, 2023 0:19:31 GMT -5
Where's a DeLorean when you really need one?
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