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Post by CorkOnTheOcean on Apr 14, 2022 15:52:17 GMT -5
I found a listing for them on yorkshirecompanies and e-mailed Michael Berry for clarification. Hope to hear back. I'm pretty sure it's the same Michael that is mentioned in the 1983 Financial Times article as tooling around the shop when he was a kid. Also found a 1952 obituary for Tom Berry, the Tom who was a co-founder of Binns & Berry, in the Halifax Evening Courier. In it, he is listed as an " uncle of Tom Berry, who is associated with the firm". I believe this would be the Tom Berry that went to Mexico, and if so, confirms he did work for Binns & Berry, and would therefore most likely be "Barry Haven". Too bad we can't ask Ian Whitcomb. Just a wild guess, but maybe they didn't want him using their real names, and he took the surname Berry and made it the first name, Barry, last name Haven, as in a place of safety/shelter. A play on words? Might that indicate that young Tom's father was Harry Berry ? I believe our Tom Berry's father was named Frank Berry. I have a few sources. The 1898 Binns & Berry co-founder Tom Berry had 7 siblings if I'm reading his obit correctly. I will attach my sources momentarily. The 1983 Financial Times article lists senior management at that time being co-founder Tom's great nephew Frank Berry and his brother Harry. Our young Tom Berry and wife Nellie, as evidenced in the 1939 England and Wales Register, lived at Shenstone, Beechwood Grove, Halifax, same as the Nov 8, 1961 MX to LA flight cards. They also had a son in the house, Frank. The Rock Odyssey book states that the "Havens" had a son "Frankie". It mentions "Haven boys", and that "Frankie" is the eldest, but from what I've found, he appears to be the middle child, born 1927. There's also a Harry Bairstow (Nellie's maiden name) Berry born in 1925, and a Ruth M Berry in 1931, all three born in Halifax, all three with mother's maiden name being Bairstow. A Tom Berry and Nellie Bairstow were married in the first quarter of 1924 in Halifax. To break it down, so far I think the findings go like this: -Ned or Edward Binns (d. 1912), Tom Berry (1875-1952) and brother Harry Berry (1867-1932) founded Binns & Berry in 1898. -Tom died in 1952, leaving a wife, Sarah Ann Berry, an adopted daughter, Mrs. G.F. Howarth, another brother Frank Berry (1874-1956), and a nephew Tom Berry, who is working at the firm. This surviving brother Frank Berry, is I believe, our young Tom's father. -Tom Berry, b. 21 Jan 1898 in Halifax says his father is Frank Berry of Illingworth, Halifax on his 9 Jul 1918 Royal Air Force Record. -Tom Berry, b. 21 Jan 1898 married Nellie Bairstow, b. 10 Jul 1900 in Halifax in Q1 1924. -Tom and Nellie Berry live at Shenstone, Beechwood Grove, Halifax. He's in the machinery biz. They have at least have one son Frank (b July 1927), and I'm pretty sure two more. Harry Bairstow Berry (b. June 1925), and Ruth M Berry (b. Q1 1931). -Tom Berry, b. 21 Jan 1898, of Shenstone etc. is admitted at NY May 14, 1959. US address given is ABLE Machinery Co. Los Angeles. -Murry, Audree, Tom Berry (b. 21 Jan 1898) and Nellie Berry (b. 10 Jul 1900) of Shenstone, Beechwood Grove, Halifax, coming from Mexico City on CMA 900, arrive in Los Angeles on Wednesday, Nov 8, 1961. -Tom Berry (b. 21 Jan 1898), dies Q1 1987 in Halifax. Nellie Berry (b. 10 Jul 1900) dies Q2 1981 in Halifax. -Ian Whitcomb's 1983 Rock Odyssey book has a lot on the "Havens", British expats living on the Palos Verdes Peninsula. Is this the original and/or only source of their existence? I can only see excerpts, but they're detailed on pages 40-43, 63-64, 307-308, 310. The visit was in 1963 and I think 1967? "Barry Haven", Mrs. Haven, and the Haven Boys, one being "Frankie".
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Post by AGD on Apr 14, 2022 17:50:34 GMT -5
Splendid, look forward to seeing that.
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Post by John Manning on Apr 14, 2022 18:11:11 GMT -5
I used to live about 500 yards (as the crow cries) from Grantown Road where Binns & Berry’s Crown Works was based. Company seems to have been dissolved a couple of decades ago, though. One remaining director – William Carl Griffiths – is listed on the government’s Companies House website. His correspondence address is in a village between my current home and my parents’ place. I found a listing for them on yorkshirecompanies and e-mailed Michael Berry for clarification. Hope to hear back. I'm pretty sure it's the same Michael that is mentioned in the 1983 Financial Times article as tooling around the shop when he was a kid. Also found a 1952 obituary for Tom Berry, the Tom who was a co-founder of Binns & Berry, in the Halifax Evening Courier. In it, he is listed as an "uncle of Tom Berry, who is associated with the firm". I believe this would be the Tom Berry that went to Mexico, and if so, confirms he did work for Binns & Berry, and would therefore most likely be "Barry Haven". Too bad we can't ask Ian Whitcomb. Just a wild guess, but maybe they didn't want him using their real names, and he took the surname Berry and made it the first name, Barry, last name Haven, as in a place of safety/shelter. A play on words? You’re taking me back now (though it that far!) – I worked on the Courier’s subs desk for five years; the current editor was deputy news editor at the time.
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Post by John Manning on Apr 14, 2022 18:14:09 GMT -5
Now I think about it, the guy who was in charge of the ads dept on the paper was Tim Berry. Wonder if he was from the same family?
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Post by jasonaustin on Apr 14, 2022 23:03:56 GMT -5
Too bad we can't ask Ian Whitcomb. I was going to say he was on Facebook the last I checked, but unfortunately seems to have passed away as of April, 2020.
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Post by John Manning on Apr 15, 2022 0:31:05 GMT -5
The Berrys’ full U.K. address would have been Shenstone, Beechwood Grove, Halifax, West Yorkshire, HX2 9BY - Shenstone being the name of the house.
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Post by AGD on Apr 15, 2022 1:19:34 GMT -5
Aha ! Excellent work... and I was right about Frank Berry. 🙂
The clincher: Old Tom (1875-1952) was "one of a family of eight" according to the obituary. His parents, Frank (b 1832) and Ruth Schofield (1835-1917) had eight children: Sarah, Joseph, Ellen, Mary, Harry, John I (died aged one), John II, Frank and "our" Tom (1875-1952).
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Post by John Manning on Apr 15, 2022 2:55:45 GMT -5
The Berrys’ full U.K. address would have been Shenstone, Beechwood Grove, Halifax, West Yorkshire, HX2 9BY - Shenstone being the name of the house. And looking on Google maps, I’m guess the house was demolished and the site developed with a few non-vernacular red brick houses.
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Post by CorkOnTheOcean on Apr 15, 2022 17:57:56 GMT -5
I can't find any of the historical City Directories that include Rolling Hills, Palos Verdes, PV Estates or the PV Peninsula. I don't think those areas are covered in the Los Angeles, Inglewood, or Torrance directories, but they are in the Los Angeles Southern Section White and Yellow pages on the Library of Congress website. I've looked at Berry, Barry, Berrie and Barrie, and a few Haven, from 1962-1966, but don't see any good candidates. There are a number of Thos Berrys, but not in the PV area. Of all those last names, there are only a smattering in the PV area, and don't look like promising leads. For future reference and in case anyone else wants to torture themselves: Los Angeles Southern Section1962 Berry & Berrey & Berrie, Barry, Barrie, Haven1963 Berry & Berrey & Berrie, Barry, Barri & Barrie, Haven1964 Berry & Berrey & Berrie, Barry & Barrie, Haven1965 Berry & Berrey, Barry & Barri & Barrie, Haven1966 Berrey & Berry 1, Berry 2, Barry & Barri & Barrie, HavenJames Murphy has an account here, right? Hopefully he sees this thread. If anyone knows how to contact him, or Steven Gaines, It'd be really interesting to hear what they think about it, and whatever else they might know about "Barry Haven".
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Post by Mikie on Apr 15, 2022 18:49:19 GMT -5
James Murphy has an account here, right? Hopefully he sees this thread. If anyone knows how to contact him, or Steven Gaines, It'd be really interesting to hear what they think about it, and whatever else they might know about "Barry Haven". Jim does have an account here. I contacted him a couple of days ago. Hopefully he'll come by here and provide input to the thread.
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Post by CorkOnTheOcean on Apr 15, 2022 20:31:36 GMT -5
Rock Odyssey is on the Internet Archive, and I checked it out. On Page 42, the 1963 visit, he says Mrs. Haven has retained "the lilt of her downtown Nottingham accent". There's more detail on the "Havens", Pages 307 and 308. This is supposedly in 1967, four years after his first visit in 1963. The Palos Verdes Peninsula home is described as a "clifftop ranch-style house". He mentions the house is in a sad state, and only Mrs. H remains. Her son "Frankie" dropped out of college on Guy Fawkes night and blew town to San Francisco. The younger brother is named on this page. "Frederick". He's in college in Utah, under close watch as he's apparently a petty thief. He names Mrs. Haven on this page now too. "Dora". Dora is all alone because Mr. Haven, Barry, has run away with a local beauty queen and is living near Aztec ruins in Guatemala. He reads some papers left behind in Frankie's old bedroom. One of them, a Detroit paper The Fifth Estate just so happens to have an article about Carl refusing the draft. It also has ads in the unclassified section. The last one I assume is meant to be a joke, "Frankie Haven-where are you pet? Call your mum collect".
So...yeah.
Edit:
Here's that Barry Haven quote. I'm only English by ancestry (Barnsley, Yorkshire), so idk the lingo, but the first thing I thought of when I read this was A Clockwork Orange.
"Oh, they had the teen beat and all that, but also some pretty melodies and chords that really made you feel like relaxayvooing. So immediately he went into a huddle with his boys about getting these songs published and recorded".
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barnsy
Kahuna
Posts: 198
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Post by barnsy on Apr 16, 2022 7:26:01 GMT -5
Here's that Barry Haven quote. I'm only English by ancestry (Barnsley, Yorkshire), so idk the lingo, but the first thing I thought of when I read this was A Clockwork Orange. "Oh, they had the teen beat and all that, but also some pretty melodies and chords that really made you feel like relaxayvooing. So immediately he went into a huddle with his boys about getting these songs published and recorded". There was a Dean Martin song in 1955 called Relax-Ay-Voo but it wasn't a hit in the US or UK (though it was in Australia) and I don't know how popular a phrase it was. I asked my parents-in-law (both from Yorkshire and teenagers in the '50s) if relaxayvoo or relaxayvooing was an expression they were familiar with but they didn't know it (though my mother-in-law vaguely remembered the song).
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Post by AGD on Apr 16, 2022 8:06:07 GMT -5
The entire Rock Chronicles entry is a complete piss take.
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Post by CorkOnTheOcean on Apr 16, 2022 9:29:13 GMT -5
I started hearing Malcolm McDowell after that. "There was me, that is Barry, and my three Havens. That is Mrs. H, Frederick and Frankie. We sat in the Wilson music room relaxayvooing to a bit of the old Two-Step Side-Step..."
As far as Rock Odyssey, I did think it a stretch that he's bumming around the U.S., makes his way to CA, engulfing himself in the surf and sun music scene, and just so happens to be hosted by the British couple that was present at the moment of myth, but ok. That second encounter with the family in 1967 sounds like an intentional parody though.
So, made up names and never happened?
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Post by AGD on Apr 16, 2022 11:28:08 GMT -5
Pretty much.
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Post by Mikie on Apr 16, 2022 11:38:13 GMT -5
James Murphy has an account here, right? Hopefully he sees this thread. If anyone knows how to contact him, or Steven Gaines, It'd be really interesting to hear what they think about it, and whatever else they might know about "Barry Haven". Jim does have an account here. I contacted him a couple of days ago. Hopefully he'll come by here and provide input to the thread. Mr. Murphy will be here soon....
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Post by AGD on Apr 17, 2022 12:28:29 GMT -5
So, I've just read the Rock Odyssey stuff in context. Utterly, utterly unbelievable. I note it was published in 1983, so there was ample source material to draw from. Simply, he's made it up. Complete fabrication, or as my father would say, lies.
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Post by jimmurphy on Apr 17, 2022 17:20:08 GMT -5
The Beach Boys early history is like a complex and convoluted jigsaw puzzle. We have most of the pieces and most of them in the proper place. But finding the missing pieces and ensuring their proper position remains a challenge. Further complicating things is determining which pieces are extraneous and should be put aside and discounted.
Kudos and much admiration to CorkOnTheOcean for unearthing this heretofore missing key piece of the puzzle. The research center in my brain is genuinely joyful this type of diligent searching continues by determined musical archaeologists. Nice work!
I believe Cork’s research uncovering Audree and Murry Wilson, and Tom and Nellie Berry returning to Los Angles from Mexico City aboard Compañía Mexicana de Aviación (flight MX 900, perhaps) on Wednesday, November 8, 1961, is the most significant piece of the puzzle uncovered in quite some time. It sheds new and important light on the chronology leading up to the recording of “Surfin.”
When I was researching and writing Becoming the Beach Boys, 1961-1963, it was readily apparent the date of the Mexico City trip was key to the chronology as it put into motion the rental of the musical gear and the studio recording of “Surfin.” I believed once a master take of “Surfin” was recorded, Hite Morgan moved very quickly to find a record company and have it released. I wrote to the U.S. Department of State and obtained Murry’s passport records in the hope they would reveal the exact date of the trip. A few months later I received a package from the State Department with copies of Murry’s passport, passport photo, and travel history. But as I was later to learn, travel to Mexico in 1961 did not require U.S. citizens to have a passport. I tried to track down the airlines and schedules for flights from Los Angeles to Mexico City but came up empty. I knew the entrenched story of the rental of the musical gear over Labor Day weekend did not make sense. In short, the gear rental is driven by Al asking his mother Virginia to loan them the money. But Al did not reconnect with Brian and begin singing with the Wilson brothers and Mike until after he ran into Brian on the campus of El Camino Community College. And since the school year started September 11, the gear rental could not have happened September 1-4 (Labor Day weekend). So, if not Labor Day, I thought maybe it was confused with another holiday—Columbus Day (October 12), Halloween (October 31), Election Day (November 7), Veterans Day (November 11, celebrated November 10 that year). I thought Thanksgiving (November 23) and certainly Christmas were too late in the year. I couldn’t make any of the other holidays work. It was all conjecture. But I knew the gear rental had to be later in the year than Labor Day weekend. But how much later? That was driven by when Al ran into Brian on the campus of El Camino Community College. Al had to have reconnected with Brian before the gear was rented as Virginia's loan for the gear was firm. Once the gear was rented and they rehearsed with it and recorded a master of "Surfin," things moved rapidly. So, I worked backwards from what we knew about the release of “Surfin” on Candix 331. I am working on an updated, detailed proposed Chronology incorporating Cork’s important discovery that I will post here when finished.
I got the name Barry Haven from Ian Whitcomb’s book and I don’t have anything new to add to that aspect of the story. Clearly it appears the name Barry Haven was either misremembered or simply incorrect. That’s one of wonderful things about research. It is constantly renewing itself. I think we can safely say Audree and Murry travelled to Mexico City with Tom and Nellie Berry and returned Wednesday, November 8, 1961, putting into motion the rental of the musical gear financed by Virginia Jardine. It seems likely the trip would have been one week or less. So, perhaps they departed no earlier than Wednesday, November 1, or a few days later. I wonder if weekday fares were more reasonably priced than weekend fares, and whether that may have been a factor in Murry’s decision when to travel.
Once again, kudos and thanks to Cork for such a pivotal piece of research that helps us document the early history in a much more accurate manner.
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Post by Mikie on Apr 17, 2022 18:59:05 GMT -5
Thanks, Jim!
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Post by AGD on Apr 18, 2022 0:21:24 GMT -5
Here's that Barry Haven quote. I'm only English by ancestry (Barnsley, Yorkshire), so idk the lingo, but the first thing I thought of when I read this was A Clockwork Orange. "Oh, they had the teen beat and all that, but also some pretty melodies and chords that really made you feel like relaxayvooing. So immediately he went into a huddle with his boys about getting these songs published and recorded". Why ? There was nothing to discuss: Brian & Mike had already signed with Guild.
Also, may be signifcant, probably isn't but Ian Whitcomb was on the same bill as The Beach Boys at the Hollywood Bowl, July 3rd 1965 and the following day at The Cow Palace in San Francisco.
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Post by boogieboarder on Apr 18, 2022 1:24:04 GMT -5
If the story remembered by The Beach Boys and/or family about the rental of musical instruments was during a holiday weekend, keep in mind that Election Day in 1961 (Nov 7), is not a holiday, nor it is a weekend, so no one would be returning home on Nov. 8 after a holiday weekend had occurred.
Also, for accuracy, Veterans Day (Nov.11) used to be called Armistice Day (celebrating veterans of World War I - which itself was called The Great War before World War II), but was officially changed from Armistice Day to Veterans Day by President Eisenhower in 1954.
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Post by Cam Mott on Apr 18, 2022 10:54:17 GMT -5
Not sure it is relevant but presumably All Saints and All Souls Days observances would be circa November 1 and 2 in Mexico in 1961.
Anyone have access to Mexican/Mexico City newspaper archives?
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Post by AGD on Apr 18, 2022 12:28:49 GMT -5
Just wondering aloud... might it be possible to discover when the Wilsons & the Berrys flew to Mexico, or when the Berrys entered and left the USA ?
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Post by AGD on Apr 18, 2022 12:31:46 GMT -5
Not sure it is relevant but presumably All Saints and All Souls Days observances would be circa November 1 and 2 in Mexico in 1961. Anyone have access to Mexican/Mexico City newspaper archives? All Souls Day in 1961 was Thursday November 2nd.
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Post by AGD on Apr 18, 2022 12:35:17 GMT -5
If the story remembered by The Beach Boys and/or family about the rental of musical instruments was during a holiday weekend, keep in mind that Election Day in 1961 (Nov 7), is not a holiday, nor it is a weekend, so no one would be returning home on Nov. 8 after a holiday weekend had occurred. Also, for accuracy, Veterans Day (Nov.11) used to be called Armistice Day (celebrating veterans of World War I - which itself was called The Great War before World War II), but was officially changed from Armistice Day to Veterans Day by President Eisenhower in 1954. Election Day 1961 was a Tuesday.
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