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Post by filledeplage on Oct 14, 2020 7:23:32 GMT -5
Pretty sure it was debunked years ago now that Mike said don’t F with the formula. Totally made up quote based on people’s interpretation that he wanted to stick to beach’s and surf when in reality he just wanted hit songs and didn’t think SOME of the lyrics by Parks, Asher and such would yield hits. Maybe Mike was put out that Brian was hanging around and collaborating with people Mike was not thrilled with.... that much is plausible. But that stupid fake quote and the reasoning for it never was. The only song that fit the bill of ‘formula’ was Do It Again (one of Carl’s favorite summer songs! how can it be) up until 15 big ones.... so its pretty stupid to have people still believing that was his actual stance. He wrote lyrics to a lot of great songs during the late 60’s and early 70’s without regard to surfing and such. Post 15 big ones is when Mike started to bring up the nostalgia stuff and the pattern of getting hung up on it to this day, but back then that was not the case. If this thing ever is released I’m sure I’ll buy it but I have never considered losing one nights sleep over it. The fact that heads sound like they are exploding elsewhere from what I’m reading here (what else is new) over this should not concern any of us here. As I’m here defending Mike there is likely more smoke coming out of people’s ears but I’m on Mikes payroll too now and you gotta do what the boss tells you to do. He keeps a lot of us employed and that costs a lot so he HAS to keep touring....it’s so simple but so hard for so many to grasp. My 4 cents worth. Up a penny or two for those keeping score. Yes - it came from the record company. Thank you for posting that. Wonder if there is some list of those who, either through P.R. jobs, or other affiliations, who created false narratives about the band, which have been propagandized as fact? That might make for a good thread. Debunking false narratives. It has a nice ring to it.
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Post by AGD on Oct 14, 2020 8:15:10 GMT -5
Actually it originated with David Anderle in a 1971 interview. Brian has stated under oath in court that Mike never said any such thing to him.
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Post by Vale on Oct 14, 2020 8:30:14 GMT -5
Actually it originated with David Anderle in a 1971 interview. Brian has stated under oath in court that Mike never said any such thing to him. IIRC Mike wrote in his book that it was just a myth which became "too strong" as years passes. Edit: On the "Heroes and Vibrations" bootleg from Vigotone (VT163), track 21 is "Mike F**ks With The Formula(s)"
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Post by Cam Mott on Oct 14, 2020 8:31:18 GMT -5
I seem to remember that Anderle explained it was taken out of context, as a comment on the musical direction but was really about BRI business. Does nobody else remember that? Did I dream it?
Anyways, grateful for the well meaning attempts to keep us informed but those taking it and turning it into conspiracy isn't gratitude. Why don't we all agree we very much want it. That and a candy bar and we will have World Peace.
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Post by filledeplage on Oct 14, 2020 9:02:11 GMT -5
I seem to remember that Anderle explained it was taken out of context, as a comment on the musical direction but was really about BRI business. Does nobody else remember that? Did I dream it? Anyways, grateful for the well meaning attempts to keep us informed but those taking it and turning it into conspiracy isn't gratitude. Why don't we all agree we very much want it. That and a candy bar and we will have World Peace. Didn't that nonsense go back to the Pet Sounds era?
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Post by filledeplage on Oct 14, 2020 9:04:15 GMT -5
So, you are saying that the “Don’t fu** with the formula” clue didn’t nail it down to the band member in particular? I think that it was intended or it wouldn’t have been used. Jon (and Howie for that matter) can do whatever they want, and have over these past couple of months. I just don’t think that is a productive way to get the release accomplished.
That was an odd phrase to choose: the guy alleged to have said "don't feck with the formula", Mike Love, seems to be being accused of fecking with the Feel Flows formula, if all the interpretations of Stebbins's post are accurate. Yet the guy Mike Love was accusing back in the sixties of fecking with the formula was Brian Wilson. So is Stebbins saying – accidentally or deliberately – that it's Brian Wilson (or rather his camp) fecking with the formula now?
Wake me up when there's some news.
Wisest words yet.
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Post by andrewhickey on Oct 14, 2020 9:37:31 GMT -5
To be fair to Jon, I think literally anything at all said about anything to do with the band will lead to people "trash talking" Mike Love. I do agree that people doing that is unlikely to endear the fanbase to him and make him more likely to release the set (if, as Jon has strongly hinted, he's the reason for the holdup). But I don't think that anything Jon (or Howie or whoever) has said was intended to cause that as such. So, you are saying that the “Don’t fu** with the formula” clue didn’t nail it down to the band member in particular? I think that it was intended or it wouldn’t have been used. Jon (and Howie for that matter) can do whatever they want, and have over these past couple of months. I just don’t think that is a productive way to get the release accomplished. No, I said precisely the opposite of that, that Jon has strongly hinted that Mike in particular is the reason for the holdup -- and I have no reason to doubt him. I just think that it wouldn't matter whether Jon had said that or not, the "fan" reaction would be to attack Mike. I also think that pointing out when Mike is doing something fans would dislike is something that people can do without being responsible for other people's abusive reactions. If Mike is the reason for the holdup, telling people, or strongly implying, that that is the case, is fair enough. People responding "this is because Mike is evil and jealous of his cousin and just wants to hurt Brian and Al and Carl and Dennis' kids, who are all desperate for this material to come out and will be devastated that Evil Mike Love is stopping it, because he is the greatest monster of all time" is not so fair.
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Post by Sam_BFC on Oct 14, 2020 9:44:14 GMT -5
It seems most if not all people on this particular forum agree that the specific "formula" quote is dubious. But, without overly simplifying "the narrative", I don't think we should ignore accounts from those involved that there was at least a degree of apprehension and even resistance towards the Pet Sounds material. Tony Asher for example claims in the Beautiful Dreamer documentary that Mike was "very aware of what he referred to as the formula"...yes the specifics of this recollection could have been influenced by the repeated claims made after the fact, but there was clearly something going on, and I think history has shown that any resistance was misjudged - at least on a purely musical level. It is a shame that it apparently had to be like that for a time, but that's life isn't it? The point for me is not to make unproven claims about the accuracy of the "formula" quote, nor deny that there must have been some resistance and conflict, but to recognize that we as fans have a choice based on the accounts of those involved and the claims of the different camps: 1. Accept that things can get ugly between people when the stakes are high, "forgive" those involved and be happy that they ultimately worked hard to produce something so special that we are still able to enjoy all these years later; or 2. Vilify, judge and hold negative feelings about people and situations about which we can not really grasp the full complexity. And yes, if "camp Mike" does compromise what sounds like a wonderful set, it will be lame and a real shame, but I will still enjoy his concerts if I get another chance to, as long as they are ethical
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Oct 14, 2020 9:48:48 GMT -5
So, you are saying that the “Don’t fu** with the formula” clue didn’t nail it down to the band member in particular? I think that it was intended or it wouldn’t have been used. Jon (and Howie for that matter) can do whatever they want, and have over these past couple of months. I just don’t think that is a productive way to get the release accomplished. No, I said precisely the opposite of that, that Jon has strongly hinted that Mike in particular is the reason for the holdup -- and I have no reason to doubt him. I just think that it wouldn't matter whether Jon had said that or not, the "fan" reaction would be to attack Mike. I also think that pointing out when Mike is doing something fans would dislike is something that people can do without being responsible for other people's abusive reactions. If Mike is the reason for the holdup, telling people, or strongly implying, that that is the case, is fair enough. People responding "this is because Mike is evil and jealous of his cousin and just wants to hurt Brian and Al and Carl and Dennis' kids, who are all desperate for this material to come out and will be devastated that Evil Mike Love is stopping it, because he is the greatest monster of all time" is not so fair. Sorry that I misunderstood what you said, Andrew.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Oct 14, 2020 9:56:28 GMT -5
As far as the quote goes, I will take Brian’s sworn court testimony that Mike never said it.
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B.E.
Kahuna
Posts: 180
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Post by B.E. on Oct 14, 2020 9:58:46 GMT -5
I'd rather he said it - it's a damn memorable line!
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Post by filledeplage on Oct 14, 2020 10:11:05 GMT -5
It seems most if not all people on this particular forum agree that the specific "formula" quote is dubious. But, without overly simplifying "the narrative", I don't think we should ignore accounts from those involved that there was at least a degree of apprehension and even resistance towards the Pet Sounds material. Tony Asher for example claims in the Beautiful Dreamer documentary that Mike was "very aware of what he referred to as the formula"...yes the specifics of this recollection could have been influenced by the repeated claims made after the fact, but there was clearly something going on, and I think history has shown that any resistance was misjudged - at least on a purely musical level. It is a shame that it apparently had to be like that for a time, but that's life isn't it? The point for me is not to make unproven claims about the accuracy of the "formula" quote, nor deny that there must have been some resistance and conflict, but to recognize that we as fans have a choice based on the accounts of those involved and the claims of the different camps: 1. Accept that things can get ugly between people when the stakes are high, "forgive" those involved and be happy that they ultimately worked hard to produce something so special that we are still able to enjoy all these years later; or 2. Vilify, judge and hold negative feelings about people and situations about which we can not really grasp the full complexity. And yes, if "camp Mike" does compromise what sounds like a wonderful set, it will be lame and a real shame, but I will still enjoy his concerts if I get another chance to, as long as they are ethical So - even George Faulkner - in writing on Murry, has unearthed people who said that Murry was badmouthed by Venet and had witnesses attest to that. The record company found ways of working around Murry. That is just one instance. There is unflattering stuff from Jack. No one has mentioned that one of Dennis' workmates turned out to be a mass murderer - exactly during that era. Do we know why? I don't - so I can look at that era and wonder and think/wonder out loud, but it is of no consequence. No one has mentioned whether one of the estates has objected or some random collaborator either composer or lyricist might have a problem. We can guess all day - and it is pointless - but what we know and agree upon is that Boyd and Linnett do fine work. We don't know when we don't know. But might do well to compile a list of established debunked narratives. No one is served well by a rumor mill. And this says that, "Dennis' solo material is not the source of the holdup." MIC had a bunch of Dennis stuff-IIRC that was advocated for by Mike.
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Post by Autotune on Oct 14, 2020 10:58:56 GMT -5
No musical or artistic formula was fixated during the 1961-1965 period. There’s no artistic formula that could be held. And there is no hint that Mike’s awareness and vision of the BB brand of the last 3 decades was already present in 1965-6. They were a young group, recent-ish, and competing for the top of the charts during a time when such competition mattered.
If there is a “formula” that Mike would have stood for, it must have been a collaborative one. The Wilson-Love songwriting partnership reached a peak of success (both artistic and sales-wise) by 1965, and Mike had every reason not only to feel personally hurt but also bewildered by his cousin seeking collaboration elsewhere. The GV collaboration gave Mike the clue that the partnership kept their mojo intact... only to be further disappointed. Of course, Brian had every right to seek his collaborators or pursue success and artistic respect that his family dressed in striped shirts and singing about things from 1963 that sounded dated by 1966 could not grant him.
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Post by Cam Mott on Oct 14, 2020 12:17:32 GMT -5
Agreed, there was no formula and it is something all the Boys frequently pointed out to press in real time it seems to me. Always crediting and praising Brian for their growth and innovation.
Feel Flows is a great opportunity to get the rest of the Boys their due for not being formula. There, got back OT. (panting, sweating)
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Post by E on Oct 14, 2020 12:19:36 GMT -5
They were an ever-changing broad church, sometimes way ahead of the game
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Post by lonelysummer on Oct 15, 2020 19:51:29 GMT -5
A bit of bloody blasphemy here: the loss of Dennis material from the box would not bother me. I accept that he is generally regarded now as the second best composer in the group, after Brian, but I don't find myself all that impressed by a lot of it. Little Bird and Be Still are nice moments on Friends; Slip On Through, Forever, Cuddle Up, Only With You and Baby Blue are all songs I love; other songs I have read high praise for, such as Celebrate the News, or Be With Me, have never turned me on all that much. I have Pacific Ocean Blue in my vinyl collection, and I do put it on once in a while, but I don't rate it nearly as high as Sunflower, Holland, Wild Honey, or <gasp> Smiley Smile, although I do like it a lot more than the albums the group was putting out in that era. As I've suggested elsewhere, if an overabundance of Dennis material on FF is the problem, then it would be better for that material to recieve a standalone release. I would think all the fans who bought the deluxe POB reissue would buy it. Where I think Dennis is always underrated is as a drummer. I read all the time that he wasn't even good enough on the skins to play on their records; and I can't tell you how many of their records actually feature his drumming, but I've seen and heard enough live Beach Boys tapes/videos to know what he brought to their live shows.
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Post by andrewhickey on Oct 15, 2020 19:56:59 GMT -5
A little Dennis goes a long way for me, too, but I'd certainly rather have more of his material than not even so. More importantly, though, the Dennis material was only mentioned as an example of *the kind of thing* that might be removed, which suggests that if that plan goes ahead then other material on the box might also not be released.
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Post by Autotune on Oct 18, 2020 19:43:49 GMT -5
I propose this thread be closed during the fifteen days the Love-Trump controversy takes place.
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Post by dauber on Oct 18, 2020 19:58:13 GMT -5
I propose we delete that last response.
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Departed
Former Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2020 8:42:10 GMT -5
Was lurking Smiley Smile and apparently people are getting copyright claim on Youtube for a bunch of Sunflower/Surf's Up era outtakes, including "My Solution [Track and Backing Vocals] ", "Seasons In The Sun", "H.E.L.P. Is On The Way (2019 Mix)" among others... linkI feel like things are looking up now
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Post by kds on Oct 23, 2020 8:59:54 GMT -5
Was lurking Smiley Smile and apparently people are getting copyright claim on Youtube for a bunch of Sunflower/Surf's Up era outtakes, including "My Solution [Track and Backing Vocals] ", "Seasons In The Sun", "H.E.L.P. Is On The Way (2019 Mix)" among others... linkI feel like things are looking up now Nice to see you, Wata.
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Post by John Manning on Oct 23, 2020 9:01:45 GMT -5
"Surf’s Up (Brian Wilson Lead Vocal 2019 Mix)" – would that be the faux 1966/71 SMiLE mix or a previously unknown 1971 gem? … or maybe the '67 run-through with the '71 backing track? Intriguing!
Fingers crossed folks!
There is still – just – time for this to appear physically before Christmas. Ain't counting chickens, but they're very pleasant to watch running about, regardless.
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Post by John Manning on Oct 23, 2020 9:14:59 GMT -5
Two Dennis tracks on that list too.
Sound Of Free (1970 Single Mix, 2019 Master) Medley: All Of My Love/Ecology
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Post by bryand on Oct 23, 2020 9:25:51 GMT -5
Is it possible that this is going to be another situation like the Beatles 1969 recordings on Spotify? I really hope not...
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Post by John Manning on Oct 23, 2020 10:26:15 GMT -5
Am I right in thinking the following don't need a copyright extension right now?:
Forever (2019 A Cappella Mix) Add Some Music To Your Day (A Capella) Cotton Fields (The Cotton Song) (A Capella) ‘Til I Die (Piano Demo) Our Sweet Love (Track & Backing Vocals Mix) This Whole World (Long Version & Backing Vocals Mix) Tears In The Morning (Track & Backing Vocals) Susie Cincinnati (2019 Mix) Good Time (2019 Mix) Take A Load Off Your Feet (Alternate Vocals Mix) Cool, Cool Water (Alternate 2019 Mix) H.E.L.P. Is On The Way (2019 Mix) Student Demonstration Time (Track & Backing Vocals) Sound Of Free (1970 Single Mix, 2019 Master) Surf’s Up (Brian Wilson Lead Vocal 2019 Mix)
Which makes one wonder why they'd be affected if a release wasn't imminent?
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