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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2019 7:07:53 GMT -5
Like the Sheriff, I can (and do) dig Stamos's "Forever". As for "Remember (...)", I like it too. But it feels to me more like a commentary on The Shangri-Las' gorgeous original (linked here for c-man's benefit) than a cover version. My principal hot take (if that's what it is) concerns the inclusion of "Good Vibrations" in almost all SMiLE mixes, not to say BWPS. To me, it's a stand-alone 45 (like "TLGIOK") and has no place in either SMiLE or Pet Sounds. That's why I keep singing the praises of @iluvleniloud's Aquarian SMiLE mix.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2019 7:21:58 GMT -5
jk I always thought of it as its own thing too. Its otherworldly sounds sticks out like a sore thumb on Pet Sounds, yet its straightforward boy girl lyrics also isolate it from the SMiLE material for me. If youre gonna do a historical mix you pretty much have to include it tho since Brian made his intentions on that pretty clear
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Post by Cam Mott on Jan 1, 2019 9:07:09 GMT -5
Brian had more of a role in his bad behavior than many would feel comfortable admitting (i.e. it wasn't all big bad Murry's fault that Mike didn't get songwriting credits.) I agree. None of us want to believe it but I think the misguided young Brian portrayed in Murry's letter to Brian might be accurate. Brian apparently was misrepresenting his stake in SOT publishing to Mike starting in 1962 (he had given it up to Murry). I think Asher's story of Murry and copyright shows Murry may have had a hand in undercrediting co-authors (including Mike) but that is a long ways from leaving anyone off the credit all together. I think VDP's story about Brian giving him 50% credit shows Brian was involved and in control of crediting copyright. Brian signed copyright forms that did not credit or even mention his co-author. Songwriters would profit from under reporting co-authors, not publishers. Brian admits it happened and he is to blame (though he kind of blames Murry too.) A Brian interview from supposedly Summer of 1988, before even Brian's suit against Irving: areuonsomething.com/brianw.htmlOne kind of wonders why we give Brian such a pass (just kidding, we know why, but at least we should quit punishing Murry and Mike).
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Post by kds on Jan 1, 2019 10:00:17 GMT -5
Brian had more of a role in his bad behavior than many would feel comfortable admitting (i.e. it wasn't all big bad Murry's fault that Mike didn't get songwriting credits.) I agree. None of us want to believe it but I think the misguided young Brian portrayed in Murry's letter to Brian might be accurate. Brian apparently was misrepresenting his stake in SOT publishing to Mike starting in 1962 (he had given it up to Murry). I think Asher's story of Murry and copyright shows Murry may have had a hand in undercrediting co-authors (including Mike) but that is a long ways from leaving anyone off the credit all together. I think VDP's story about Brian giving him 50% credit shows Brian was involved and in control of crediting copyright. Brian signed copyright forms that did not credit or even mention his co-author. Songwriters would profit from under reporting co-authors, not publishers. Brian admits it happened and he is to blame (though he kind of blames Murry too.) A Brian interview from supposedly Summer of 1988, before even Brian's suit against Irving: areuonsomething.com/brianw.htmlOne kind of wonders why we give Brian such a pass (just kidding, we know why, but at least we should quit punishing Murry and Mike). Par for the course in BB land. Brian always gets a pass or somebody else plays the villain.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2019 10:57:04 GMT -5
While more complete and superior versions of the SMiLE tracks remained unreleased, a surprisingly large amount of the SMiLE material was released between 1967-1971, and you could compile a very representative version of SMiLE with just THOSE RELEASED TRACKS:
01 Our Prayer (20/20) 02 Heroes And Villains (Smiley Smile) 03 Good Vibrations (single/Smiley Smile) 04 Cabinessence (20/20) 05 Wonderful (Smiley Smile) 06 Vegetables (20/20) 07 Mama Says (Wild Honey) 08 Wind Chimes (Smiley Smile)
09 Fall Breaks And Back To Winter (Smiley Smile) 10 Cool, Cool Water (Sunflower) 11 Surf's Up (Surf's Up)
Total Time - 32:08
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Post by E on Jan 1, 2019 12:18:03 GMT -5
I like all Dennis Wilson-related songs. I think he is easily the second best composer in The Beach Boys. But, with the exception of a song or two, I find the Bambu material to be a step below all of Dennis' other work. Finally, one I agree with.
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Post by craigslowinski on Jan 1, 2019 13:53:32 GMT -5
Like the Sheriff, I can (and do) dig Stamos's "Forever". As for "Remember (...)", I like it too. But it feels to me more like a commentary on The Shangri-Las' gorgeous original (linked here for c-man's benefit) than a cover version. My principal hot take (if that's what it is) concerns the inclusion of "Good Vibrations" in almost all SMiLE mixes, not to say BWPS. To me, it's a stand-alone 45 (like "TLGIOK") and has no place in either SMiLE or Pet Sounds. That's why I keep singing the praises of @iluvleniloud 's Aquarian SMiLE mix. Wow, that's really something - pretty "arty" for it's day. Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2019 14:57:58 GMT -5
jk I always thought of it as its own thing too. Its otherworldly sounds sticks out like a sore thumb on Pet Sounds, yet its straightforward boy girl lyrics also isolate it from the SMiLE material for me. If youre gonna do a historical mix you pretty much have to include it tho since Brian made his intentions on that pretty clear @iluvleniloud: History was never my strong point. Aside from the absence of "Good Vibrations" I like the guilelessness and pioneering spirit of Aquarian SMiLE and really, I don't intend to look any further. Sorry! On the subject of "Look", I know "GV" uses the same "marching band" motif but that's nothing new in pop. I mean "Underture", the long track from Tommy, revisits a riff from "Rael" on The Who Sell Out and Pink Floyd's "Let There Be More Light" develops a riff that occurs briefly on "Interstellar Overdrive".
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 2, 2019 10:17:25 GMT -5
Brian had more of a role in his bad behavior than many would feel comfortable admitting (i.e. it wasn't all big bad Murry's fault that Mike didn't get songwriting credits.) I agree. None of us want to believe it but I think the misguided young Brian portrayed in Murry's letter to Brian might be accurate. Brian apparently was misrepresenting his stake in SOT publishing to Mike starting in 1962 (he had given it up to Murry). I think Asher's story of Murry and copyright shows Murry may have had a hand in undercrediting co-authors (including Mike) but that is a long ways from leaving anyone off the credit all together. I think VDP's story about Brian giving him 50% credit shows Brian was involved and in control of crediting copyright. Brian signed copyright forms that did not credit or even mention his co-author. Songwriters would profit from under reporting co-authors, not publishers. Brian admits it happened and he is to blame (though he kind of blames Murry too.) A Brian interview from supposedly Summer of 1988, before even Brian's suit against Irving: areuonsomething.com/brianw.htmlOne kind of wonders why we give Brian such a pass (just kidding, we know why, but at least we should quit punishing Murry and Mike). Thanks for that. It seems pretty candid.
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Post by Cam Mott on Jan 3, 2019 17:30:32 GMT -5
Back in the 60s, did a group's Producer bear responsibility for getting the group's songwriting credit right?
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Post by kds on Jan 7, 2019 8:21:43 GMT -5
While he's a very polarizing figure in BB World, I'm a fan of the music Joe Thomas has gotten out of Brian Wilson.
It may lack the genius of Brian's 1960s work, but I think there's a lot to like about the music on Imagination, TWGMTR, and NPP.
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Post by Custom Machine on Jan 8, 2019 2:15:48 GMT -5
... Brian apparently was misrepresenting his stake in SOT publishing to Mike starting in 1962 (he had given it up to Murry). ... I don't recall hearing that Brain had misrepresented this info to Mike as early as 1962. Where can I find this info (ie, both that Brain had given his interest in SOT to Murry in 1962 and that he had misrepresented it to Mike at that early date)? And ... OK ... I realize this is a Hot Take thread, but I just wanna know if there is corroborating evidence, or if this is simply a Hot Take.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 3:54:02 GMT -5
Brian had more of a role in his bad behavior than many would feel comfortable admitting (i.e. it wasn't all big bad Murry's fault that Mike didn't get songwriting credits.) I agree. None of us want to believe it but I think the misguided young Brian portrayed in Murry's letter to Brian might be accurate. [...]
One kind of wonders why we give Brian such a pass (just kidding, we know why, but at least we should quit punishing Murry and Mike). I agree with both of you as well. I still love his music (most of it) and greatly sympathize with everything he went thru. But the more I've delved into Brian's antics the less I believe the "charming guileless victim" characterization. The song credits is a big one. I also think the way he treated his friends during the SMiLE era is another. It's become the popular narrative to blame them if not Mike for killing SMiLE, mistreating Brian, not appreciating his vision... But if you listen to the Psychedelic Sounds bootleg carefully I think it paints a completely different picture. It's an impulsive guy who never thought anything out before acting on it. Who never bothered to communicate his vision effectively to anybody. Who'd call his friends and goad them into meeting at the studio or an airport at all hours of the night on his whims. Once there he'd force them to act like a pig (Al, who supposedly felt humiliated) or act out these seemingly random skit ideas. During the Nov 4 skits, you can see how Brian never clearly tells anyone what's in his head. He just starts a vague scenario like falling into an instrument and expects them to follow. When the other guys try to do their own improvised thing (Ice Cream Man) he doesn't join in or try to build on what they've brought to the session. So it's the worst of both worlds--no direction but not allowing improv either. When he tries to get them to do the Vegetable Fight they refuse, and as fans who want to hear what Brian had in his head, we get annoyed at them. "Oh those simple-minded fools, why couldn't they appreciate his vision?!" Well, from their perspective it's late at night, they hadn't planned to be doing this, they're annoyed at the lack of direction from the guy who asked them to come and they want to go home. Can you really blame them for that? The infamous Lifeboat Tape is even worse in this regard. In both sessions, if you listen closely you can hear people complain about being dragged around to fulfill these vague commands late at night. Their frustration is justifiable and any of us would have been just as fed up by these antics given enough time. Yet, they get demonized in history because Brian is the de facto hero of the story, since you'd have to be a fan of his to have even sought out these tapes in the first place. The way Brian treated VDP, Jules Siegal and his girlfriend as well as David Anderle when they were just trying to do their jobs and get this thing off the ground is abominable. I know Brian was unwell but I don't think that fully excuses some of his actions. To my knowledge he has never really apologized either. People use the Wrecking Crew's testimony that Brian was "always professional in the studio" as an excuse to shut out any of this kind of criticism. And you know what--Brian *is* a lot more professional in the studio with the musicians. His clear, respectful directions to Hal Blaine during the Fight tapes are evidence of this. However, that only makes his treatment of his supposed friends even worse. It's as though he felt entitled to use them as his unpaid guinea pigs--that they didn't deserve the same respect. Even VDP, who was his collaborator, was supposedly ordered around just because Brian felt it was his right to do so. I'm basing this on claims in the Vosse and Anderle articles. With the notable exception of Daro, I have yet to see any of this "oh the Vosse Posse were such shallow posers"/"they thought they were so deep and ahead of Brian but they weren't!" kind of attitude some other posters here allude to. If anything I'd say it was the other way around. Vosse himself comes off as nothing but sympathetic to Brian and reverent of the project even two years later, after getting tossed aside from what had promised to be a lucrative career opportunity. He had every reason in the world to throw Brian under the bus, or claim VDP was the true brains, or even credit himself with more than he did. Instead he provided what is by far the most accurate and respectful testimony for what the sessions were like. The way these people often get thrown under the bus by fans astounds me. I think the only reason it happens is because they're not members of the band, and therefore BB fans feel more safe in using them as convenient scapegoats for why Brian broke down and why the album fell apart. TL;DR: Brian could be manipulative and borderline cruel when he wanted to be. I think both Mike and the Vosse Posse were victimized by him. Instead of blaming one or the other, blame Brian himself for the project and band's collapse.
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Post by Cam Mott on Jan 8, 2019 7:14:15 GMT -5
... Brian apparently was misrepresenting his stake in SOT publishing to Mike starting in 1962 (he had given it up to Murry). ... I don't recall hearing that Brain had misrepresented this info to Mike as early as 1962. Where can I find this info (ie, both that Brain had given his interest in SOT to Murry in 1962 and that he had misrepresented it to Mike at that early date)? And ... OK ... I realize this is a Hot Take thread, but I just wanna know if there is corroborating evidence, or if this is simply a Hot Take. It is in Mike's autobio. I'm away from my copy of the book but as I remember it was revealed in a letter from 1965 written by Brian and is mentioned in the documentation discovered for Mike's suit against Brian.
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Post by John Manning on Jan 8, 2019 8:17:38 GMT -5
Unpopular opinions? Okay…
One of the very best tracks on the first Smile bootleg was “Holidays” – actually Here Comes Da Honey Man by Miles Davis and Gill Evans, and put on a tape by a serious collector to track, very successfully as it turned out, any subsequent miscreant sharing. We should really all be Miles Davis fans.
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Post by kds on Jan 8, 2019 8:24:20 GMT -5
I shared this opinion in the Unpopular BB opinions threads (the kids are calling them hot takes these days) on other forums, including Pet Sounds, so I might as well document it here:
Vegetables, and any version thereof, is a godawful song, and is one of the reasons I cannot consider Smile a masterpiece. I can't believe that a collection of works that includes the beautiful Our Prayer, the intricate Cabinessence, and the masterful Surf's Up includes something that sounds like sound be sung by Elmo, Big Bird, and Grover on Sesame Street instead of The Beach Boys.
Like much of Brian's "quirkier" (ie. weird) works, I will never understand why it's held in such high regard. Brian writes toddler tunes about veggies and feet and they're put on a pedestal, but heaven forbid Mike pen a post 1965 lyric about the beach.
That's the end of my mini rant on Vegetables, which I may copy and paste in the Survivor poll if it beats out Our Prayer.
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 8, 2019 8:27:12 GMT -5
I shared this opinion in the Unpopular BB opinions threads (the kids are calling them hot takes these days) on other forums, including Pet Sounds, so I might as well document it here: Vegetables, and any version thereof, is a godawful song, and is one of the reasons I cannot consider Smile a masterpiece. I can't believe that a collection of works that includes the beautiful Our Prayer, the intricate Cabinessence, and the masterful Surf's Up includes something that sounds like sound be sung by Elmo, Big Bird, and Grover on Sesame Street instead of The Beach Boys. Like much of Brian's "quirkier" (ie. weird) works, I will never understand why it's held in such high regard. Brian writes toddler tunes about veggies and feet and they're put on a pedestal, but heaven forbid Mike pen a post 1965 lyric about the beach. That's the end of my mini rant on Vegetables, which I may copy and paste in the Survivor poll if it beats out Our Prayer. It is not a rant - but I think it is part of comic relief as you see in plays, movies and literature in general. You are working with so much intensity that you have to find some way to lighten-up and maybe even not take yourself so seriously and have a laugh.
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Post by kds on Jan 8, 2019 8:31:28 GMT -5
I shared this opinion in the Unpopular BB opinions threads (the kids are calling them hot takes these days) on other forums, including Pet Sounds, so I might as well document it here: Vegetables, and any version thereof, is a godawful song, and is one of the reasons I cannot consider Smile a masterpiece. I can't believe that a collection of works that includes the beautiful Our Prayer, the intricate Cabinessence, and the masterful Surf's Up includes something that sounds like sound be sung by Elmo, Big Bird, and Grover on Sesame Street instead of The Beach Boys. Like much of Brian's "quirkier" (ie. weird) works, I will never understand why it's held in such high regard. Brian writes toddler tunes about veggies and feet and they're put on a pedestal, but heaven forbid Mike pen a post 1965 lyric about the beach. That's the end of my mini rant on Vegetables, which I may copy and paste in the Survivor poll if it beats out Our Prayer. It is not a rant - but I think it is part of comic relief as you see in plays, movies and literature in general. You are working with so much intensity that you have to find some way to lighten-up and maybe even not take yourself so seriously and have a laugh. I get that, but for heaven's sake, make it good. In general, I prefer the music Pink Floyd made after Syd Barrett, but he excelled at writing childlike songs like Matlida Mother and The Scarecrow that managed to sit alongside stuff like Astronomy Domine and Flaming without sounding way out of place. For my money, that wasn't Brian's strong point.
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 8, 2019 8:37:17 GMT -5
It is not a rant - but I think it is part of comic relief as you see in plays, movies and literature in general. You are working with so much intensity that you have to find some way to lighten-up and maybe even not take yourself so seriously and have a laugh. I get that, but for heaven's sake, make it good. In general, I prefer the music Pink Floyd made after Syd Barrett, but he excelled at writing childlike songs like Matlida Mother and The Scarecrow that managed to sit alongside stuff like Astronomy Domine and Flaming without sounding way out of place. For my money, that wasn't Brian's strong point. It is goofy - but IIRC the studio was lined with plastic and all these veggies were trucked in. That, IIRC was from one of Al's Storyteller shows. It did not seem to be slated for a single but just a fun track. Lord, knows they needed levity at that time.
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Post by kds on Jan 8, 2019 8:39:57 GMT -5
I get that, but for heaven's sake, make it good. In general, I prefer the music Pink Floyd made after Syd Barrett, but he excelled at writing childlike songs like Matlida Mother and The Scarecrow that managed to sit alongside stuff like Astronomy Domine and Flaming without sounding way out of place. For my money, that wasn't Brian's strong point. It is goofy - but IIRC the studio was lined with plastic and all these veggies were trucked in. That, IIRC was from one of Al's Storyteller shows. It did not seem to be slated for a single but just a fun track. Lord, knows they needed levity at that time. Funny story. Doesn't make the song any better. But, that's why this is a "hot take." I know very few will tend to agree.
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 8, 2019 8:41:53 GMT -5
It is goofy - but IIRC the studio was lined with plastic and all these veggies were trucked in. That, IIRC was from one of Al's Storyteller shows. It did not seem to be slated for a single but just a fun track. Lord, knows they needed levity at that time. Funny story. Doesn't make the song any better. But, that's why this is a "hot take." I know very few will tend to agree. The connotation of "hot" has changed over time - and I wish we had some more of those emoticons! Bring back the WOOT and the LOL! S'il vous plaît!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 11:00:57 GMT -5
No, kds. You're not allowed to dislike a single thing the group has ever done.
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Post by kds on Jan 8, 2019 11:50:56 GMT -5
No, kds. You're not allowed to dislike a single thing the group has ever done. Dang. So, I've been wrong about Summer of Love this whole time?
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Post by craigslowinski on Jan 8, 2019 12:31:05 GMT -5
I get that, but for heaven's sake, make it good. In general, I prefer the music Pink Floyd made after Syd Barrett, but he excelled at writing childlike songs like Matlida Mother and The Scarecrow that managed to sit alongside stuff like Astronomy Domine and Flaming without sounding way out of place. For my money, that wasn't Brian's strong point. It is goofy - but IIRC the studio was lined with plastic and all these veggies were trucked in. That, IIRC was from one of Al's Storyteller shows. It did not seem to be slated for a single but just a fun track. Lord, knows they needed levity at that time. Ah, but it WAS (slated for a single, announced in the spring of '67).
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Post by Cam Mott on Jan 8, 2019 12:37:30 GMT -5
... Brian apparently was misrepresenting his stake in SOT publishing to Mike starting in 1962 (he had given it up to Murry). ... I don't recall hearing that Brain had misrepresented this info to Mike as early as 1962. Where can I find this info (ie, both that Brain had given his interest in SOT to Murry in 1962 and that he had misrepresented it to Mike at that early date)? Starting at the bottom of page 355. "It started with Sea of tunes. When it was formed in 1961, it was a sole proprietorship, and Uncle Murry and Brian each had a 50 percent stake, though Brian gave his half away the following year. Throughout the 60s, Brian told me that he controlled the Sea of Tunes, which reassured me that I needn't worry about my song credits. But according to a 1965 letter from Brian, Uncle Murry controlled the catalog." Mike also claims he was first left off of SUSA which hit the radio around the first week of March '63 but didn't complain to Brian until he saw the Surfer Girl album, which hit radio the third week of Sept. '63, left off his credit from 2 songs. So all of it after 1962 FWIIW.
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