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Post by Vale on Feb 12, 2020 11:53:54 GMT -5
Thanks, Vale, that is a great link - even if a few don’t work. A few are pretty good! 👍 Can't believe old tripod links still works in 2020
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 12, 2020 12:05:14 GMT -5
Thanks, Vale, that is a great link - even if a few don’t work. A few are pretty good! 👍 Can't believe old tripod links still works in 2020 Neither could I! Wow!
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Post by craigslowinski on Feb 19, 2020 12:48:19 GMT -5
I wanna say that bit of info came from Marilyn herself, but would have to check...
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Post by jiggy22 on Feb 19, 2020 14:37:30 GMT -5
Speaking of Marilyn, do we have a date for when she recorded her unused insert vocal for the April ‘67 version of Vega-Tables? Same day as the “Ballad Insert” session?
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Post by Mikie on Feb 19, 2020 23:50:52 GMT -5
I'm still trying to hear Marilyn's voice on Surf's Up! I know my hearing isn't what it once was, but.......
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Mar 17, 2020 14:00:31 GMT -5
Hi everyone!
I was wondering if someone could send me a track from the Heroes and Villains Sessions bootleg. The track I need is the "Sonny Down Snuff" overdubs. Thanks!
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Post by Cam Mott on Mar 17, 2020 15:18:38 GMT -5
Here's something that's been bothering me since approx the dawn of time: what's going on with the random marimba/upright bass note at the end of take 9 of the first version of Wind Chimes? Any progress on this?
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Apr 7, 2020 16:46:06 GMT -5
Hi everyone. I've got an interesting question for the Sandbox today, but first a little background. I've been spending a lot of time now on my upcoming thread, "The Different Versions of Heroes and Villains", and I've made great progress. It took me a long time to sequence the different versions that probably existed, and I've narrowed it down to 7. Those of you who have paid attention to my previous thread, "The Different Versions of Good Vibrations", have already heard 3 of the 7 versions (assuming you've heard the other 2 that were officially released). Besides the difficult tasks of reconstructing vocals for "Prelude to Fade" and "All Day", Side A has been pretty easy to figure out. Side B however, has been a different story, and I'd like to take the time now to ask you for a personal opinion/judgement. There are certainties on Side B. We know it opens up with Gee, and we know that it transitions to Animals. Now the end of the Animals section, the boys sing a Fm6 chord, which from listening to Brian instructing at the piano, was supposed to be proceeded by a lost vocal bridge for Part 2. From that vocal bridge, we can go into Part 4, which ends with Whistle Bridge as we hear Brian confirm during the session. After the Whistle Bridge, there's a fadeout. So the structure I just described is as follows: Gee-Animals-Part 2 Vocal Bridge-Part 4-Whistle Bridge-Fadeout. 3 chants strung together, just as Chuck Britz claimed back in the 80s. Ba-da-bing, ba-da-boom. Let's take a listen to it, so we can all be on the same page: Heroes and Villains: Side B (3 Chant Version)However, this is where the problem is: there's a 4th chant. The clip-clop section labeled as "Part 2 (Revised)" on the Smile Sessions. Keep in mind that this whole session where they recorded Gee, Animals, Clip-Clop and Part 4 was titled "Part 2 (Revised)", so the title on the Smile Sessions does not mean that the clip-clop section was a revised version of Animals. I compare it to Animals, because both sections end with the same Fm6 vocalization that would lead into the Part 2 Bridge. This can be confusing, because it begs the question, "Would Brian have used the same vocal bridge twice in one song?". I would argue "No, Brian would not do that". So now we have to wonder, which chant do we use? This question plagued me for the longest time, as I sat the mix from above on the shelf for several months. Recently, it occurred to me that maybe Brian would have used all 4 chants, but use the Part 2 Bridge only once. I looked back at the original mix of the Part 2 Chants, and I noticed that at the end of Animals, there's a sound fx of the boys crying out "Ahh!". Hmmm, could this be a sound fx transition in the same vain of "You're Under Arrest"? These thoughts gave me the idea to produce the following mix: Gee-Animals-Clip Clop-Part 2 Vocal Bridge-Part 4-Whistle Bridge-Fadeout. Now the song is made up of 4 chants, extending the song to 3:30. Here is the mix below: Heroes and Villains: Side B (4 Chant Version)
Now that you've made it this far, I'd like to ask my first question: Which of the two mixes do you think sounds better? Secondly, do you think the transition in the 4 Chant Mix works? Now that I have these 2 mixes, a new question is beginning to enter my mind: What if the Clip-Clop section was abandoned/not used? I ask this, because Brian recycles this section later during Vega-Tables, and then finally in the 4th Version of Wonderful on Smiley Smile. Did Brian ultimately decide not use this new section in Heroes and Villains Part 2? Think about the Rock With Me Henry Bridge. It first shows up in Good Vibrations, which he decides not to use in. Then he recycles it for the 2nd Version of Wonderful. He ends up not using the 2nd Version of Wonderful, so he uses it again in the 3rd Version of Wonderful, which he again scraps. Then he decides to use it as the Bridge in Love to Say Dada/Cool, Cool Water. This one Bridge ended up doing a lot of traveling because Brian didn't know where to put it. My thinking is this: the Clip-Clop section ended up doing some traveling of it's own too. Does that mean it was ultimately not used? This is my most important question I'd like to ask you. I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Thank you.
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Post by zebulan on Apr 7, 2020 22:11:53 GMT -5
As others have said, nice mixes, dumdangel! Interesting use of the BWPS-style compression effect on the first part of the Gee vocals; personally, I think the vocals already sound retro enough on their own, though the compression does add a bit more punch to the H&V chants coming in. I think the Animals -> Clip-Clop transition is alright, though I would put a bit more space between the two. I think it feels a bit too abrupt as-is.
I'm not sure which of the two mixes I prefer, but I'm leaning towards the first one without Clip-Clop. I guess I'm just not quite sold enough on the Animals -> Clip-Clop transition, though maybe I'll change my mind after a while.
I had assumed the purpose of the "ah!" at the end of Animals was to transition into Swedish Frog. And after Swedish Frog, I think you can transition to either Clip-Clop or Part 2 Version 4. Of course, depending on if/when Swedish Frog was scrapped during the development of the b-side, it could indeed have been repurposed to go to Clip-Clop or even just straight to Part 2 Version 4.
Also, is there any particular reason why you put the Fade Remake at the end of both of your mixes?
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Apr 8, 2020 9:23:46 GMT -5
I like this a lot! Still not 100% sure where I stand on all of these sections and what Brian might have been thinking at the time, but I'm holding onto my theory for the actual recording chronology being: Feb 20 - Part 2 (second chant/Animals) Feb 20 - Part 2 Revised (third chant/clip clop) Feb 21 - Part 2 Revised (first chant/Gee) Feb 26 - Part 2 Version 4 (fourth chant) The first mix sounds great! It always bothered me a bit that the clip clop/Bicycle Rider chant is so different to the rest, they've all got this unified "dit dit dit heroes and villains" motif going on and then that one's basically in its own style. It probably feels like a more focused piece of music without, the way you edited it. My go-to sequence of events theory right now (which doesn't conflict with your edits) is: 1. Records both the 'animals' and the 'clip clop' chants as alternate Part 2 ideas for the A-side 2. Realises they could both be strung together into their own thing, records Gee as a new intro piece so it's in three sections, makes a test mix 3. Records the final chant as either a replacement third section more unified with the others OR an extension so it's four sections Thanks! Btw, your theory of the recording chronology has me intrigued. If Part 4 was recorded on the 26th, then that would lump it in with the March Mix. Let me know how you've come to this conclusion! As others have said, nice mixes, dumdangel! Interesting use of the BWPS-style compression effect on the first part of the Gee vocals; personally, I think the vocals already sound retro enough on their own, though the compression does add a bit more punch to the H&V chants coming in. I think the Animals -> Clip-Clop transition is alright, though I would put a bit more space between the two. I think it feels a bit too abrupt as-is. I'm not sure which of the two mixes I prefer, but I'm leaning towards the first one without Clip-Clop. I guess I'm just not quite sold enough on the Animals -> Clip-Clop transition, though maybe I'll change my mind after a while. I had assumed the purpose of the "ah!" at the end of Animals was to transition into Swedish Frog. And after Swedish Frog, I think you can transition to either Clip-Clop or Part 2 Version 4. Of course, depending on if/when Swedish Frog was scrapped during the development of the b-side, it could indeed have been repurposed to go to Clip-Clop or even just straight to Part 2 Version 4. Also, is there any particular reason why you put the Fade Remake at the end of both of your mixes? Thanks zeb! I figured that compressing the vocals in the beginning is an easy effect that could have been done by Brian in those days, so why not do it. It makes that part sound like it's on the radio, representing the old timey rock and roll sound before the new one comes in full force. Thanks for the criticism on the transition between Animals and Clip-Clop! I agree it doesn't sound strong. However, I did try to give them more space in between, but it sounded like the song lost momentum. I put them closer together, because Brian usually edits things close like that. I put the Part 2 Fadeout on Side B because I believe it belongs there. The March mix has the Choruses on Side A, so Side A fades out with the Chorus, leaving the fade to fall on Side B. During the session for the new fade, you can hear Brian singing extra parts with Carl, and they sound like the Part 2 chants. For Everyone Else:I'm scrapping the 4 Chant Mix. I've come up with a new Version of Side B that fits with the February Mix. It goes: Gee-Animals-Piano Theme-Clip Clop-Part 2 Vocal Bridge-Prelude to Fade-Piano Theme (Fadeout). With this new mix, I can now scrap one of the 7 mixes I had, so now there's only 6. The Part 2 Version 4 Chant is for the March mix, when Brian decided to put the Prelude to Fade and Chorus on Side A, and move the Whistle Bridge to Side B, scrapping Clip-Clop in the process.
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Post by John Manning on Apr 9, 2020 3:48:41 GMT -5
Cripes I really like that four-chant mix. The only change I'd make (if I had the skill) would be to make the transition at approx 1:51 a tiny little bit later/less abrupt. Otherwise it changes the pace really nicely.
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Apr 14, 2020 12:50:21 GMT -5
UPDATE: So I'd like to amend what I have previously stated on the different versions of Heroes and Villains. I now have 8 different versions of the song, and I doubt it will change this time. Regarding the Part 2 Chants, it has become apparent to me that Brian probably never finished them. If saltymarshmallow is right, then that means Brian recorded the Part 3 (Animals) and Part 2 (Revised/Clip-Clop) chants on the same day. Part 2 (Gee) was recorded during the same session, only in the early AM hours of the next morning. But, here's what I'm trying to get at: if we have these 3 chants, then why don't we have the Part 2 Vocal Bridge? Brian and the Boys were rehearsing it during the same session, and yet the mix/edit we have doesn't include it. I beginning to doubt that it was even recorded at all, unfortunately. I'm also rejecting the mix I had proposed in my last post. I think those amendments are ridiculous. Those sections (Prelude to Fade, Piano Theme), were obviously for Side A. Here's what we know: Gee precedes Animals. According to rehearsal footage from Brian, the Part 2 Vocal Bridge proceeds Animals. Before February 26th, all we have left is the Clip-Clop section. So I am proposing this incomplete mix: Gee - Animals - Part 2 Vocal Bridge - Clip Clop
Let's take a listen to it: Heroes and Villains: Side B (Incomplete Mix)Quite frankly, I think this is all we can know for sure. Now the question is, what would have proceeded the Clip-Clop section? Another vocal bridge? If so, I think it would have transitioned into the Fadeout. What are your thoughts?
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Post by zebulan on Apr 14, 2020 17:37:41 GMT -5
Yeah, I think that latest mix works pretty well. I just got an idea for what could come after Clip-Clop if you want to avoid using the Wish Upon a Star bridge twice. There's no evidence that this was ever planned (let alone recorded), but if you sing Bridge to Indians backwards, I think it works pretty well as a vocal bridge from Clip-Clop to the Fade Remake.
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Post by zebulan on Apr 20, 2020 15:47:41 GMT -5
Does anyone have isolated Child Is Father of the Man chorus vocals (other than the SMiLE A.D. fanmixer toolkit extraction and the "walk child" version)?
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Post by zebulan on May 4, 2020 12:22:19 GMT -5
Having recently been convinced that Part 1 Tag was part of Wonderful, not H&V, it has occurred to me that the first version of Do a Lot would most likely not be for H&V either, but rather the cornucopia Vega-Tables. The end of that Vega-Tables is a perfect transition to that version of Do a Lot, which I guess could have acted as either a bridge to another set of verses and/or a fade. (The lyrics are repeated three times, which is perfect for a fade, and you could just cut at the end of the second if using as a bridge.) The Do a Lot section definitely sounds a lot more like the cornucopia Vega-Tables than any H&V section.
That early Vega-Tables is called a demo on TSS, but it seems to have quite a bit more effort put into it than I would expect for a demo. The usage of a basic piano track doesn't really point to this being a demo, since both the April Vega-Tables and the first Do a Lot section also use relatively simple piano tracks. Was the demo labeling just a guess by the people compiling TSS?
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Post by zebulan on May 4, 2020 16:28:36 GMT -5
I can absolutely buy Do a Lot being Vega-Tables all along rather than Heroes based on the key and lyrics, not sold on Part 1 Tag having anything to do with Wonderful though. For the record, it was mainly dumdangel's instrumental cover of Wonderful that sold me on the idea. It happens to be the perfect tempo to fit in as an insert between verses (and/or as a quick fade-out). This would fit with (seemingly) every other version of Wonderful having an insert section. Version 2 has the "mamamama" section, the "Walk child" CIFotM seems like an insert for v3 to me, and of course the Smiley Wonderful has an insert as well. As it turns out, the name "Part 1 Tag" (which is spoken on tape, though the song for which it is intended is not), still makes sense in the context of Wonderful, where you could consider the first 3 verses or else the whole thing as "part 1". I tried making a proper mix with Part 1 Tag included, and it worked really well. It sounded better than any of my attempts to incorporate the section into H&V, where I had been trying to use it as a fade. If "Part 1 Tag" is part of H&V, then I can only see it acting as a fade (treating "Part 1" to mean the entire a-side), and I was never really satisfied with using it that way. If verses 1&2 are considered Part 1, then I can't see Part 1 Tag coming after them; it just feels too jarring. If verses 1&2 + acapella verse/bridge is considered Part 1, Part 1 Tag works better there, but it slows down the pacing too much; there's no reason for the section to be used as a bridge to another section if the vocal bridge already does that. A wordless acapella section (that partially repeats the verses) followed by an instrumental section seems very unlikely to me. In general, Part 1 Tag feels anticlimactic in H&V compared to other sections like the vocal bridge or Sunshine fade that serve similar functions. Meanwhile, if used in Wonderful, it has the same (or slightly higher) energy level as the rest of the song, while also being the perfect tempo to seamlessly slide right back into the verses. On a personal note, the monotony of having 5 sequential verses always felt a bit boring to me. (And for that reason I would definitely have used Wonderful v2 or v3 in my mixes if either had a completed vocal.) After inserting Part 1 Tag into my mix, I've found myself listening to the song way more. Something about it just feels really fun to listen to. At the very least, I think it's an edit so good that even if it wasn't actually going to be used that way, it probably should have. Here's my Wonderful mix if you're curious: vocaroo.com/3PLOFj3TDQF
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Post by zebulan on May 4, 2020 16:41:52 GMT -5
Also, just to be clear, Brian himself calls it "Part 1 Tag" on tape (so the "part 1" bit isn't a mistake by the guy calling out the take numbers). It's cut out of TSS, but you can hear it on the Heroes and Villains Sessions Vol. 2 bootleg. It's too bad nobody bothered to say "Heroes and Villains" or "Wonderful" on tape (or if they did, it got cut out).
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Post by Cam Mott on May 5, 2020 13:20:55 GMT -5
I just want to jump in and point out "Tag to Part 1" for #57020 shows the two sided H&V single was already conceived and under construction with the very next session for PART 2/B side/SIDE 2 #57045 on January 5.
(thousand yard stare)
Please, continue.
(jumps out)
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Post by zebulan on May 5, 2020 16:58:34 GMT -5
Something that just occurred to me is that on Heroes and Villains Sessions Vol. 2, track 10 "Verse (acetate)", the backing track fades out. I had initially assumed this fade-out was added by the bootleg compilers, but I just noticed that the acetate noise remains the same as the instrumental fades out, so I think that fade is actually part of the acetate mix (and therefore at some point the verse was supposed to fade out like that in the song). What do you think?
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Post by Micha on May 11, 2020 14:53:27 GMT -5
As "Tag to part 1" is in the same key AND the same SPEED as Wonderful, I've been using it as a middle eight for Wonderful for a decade now and IMHO it works GREAT. I don't believe though "Tag to part 1" has ANYTHING to do with Wonderful...
"Sleep A Lot"... If I had to take a guess not based on any evidence, I'd say it was conceived as a section or even chorus of a stand-alone "I'm In Great Shape", tried out as a chorus for Vega-Tables in April after IIGS was scrapped, and then of course ended up as a piece of its own on Wild Honey.
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Post by zebulan on May 16, 2020 9:59:42 GMT -5
The comp reel dated Jan 3 1967 does label all of the above sections as Heroes parts on the side of the box. This is what's on the list (exact wording): 1) HEROES & VILLIANS INSERT "DO A LOT" 2) HEROES & VILLIANS "BAG OF TRICKS" 3) MISSION PAK BRIDGE TO INDIANS 4) HEROES & VILLIANS TAG TO PART 1 5) HEROES & VILLIANS P.U TO 3rd VERSE I can absolutely buy Do a Lot being Vega-Tables all along rather than Heroes based on the key and lyrics, not sold on Part 1 Tag having anything to do with Wonderful though. Worth noting that this is a comp reel assembled after the fact with the date likely inaccurate for some of the sections, as Bag of Tricks' recording can be stamped to the later session on Jan 20. I don't know what that says for the actual worked-on order. The early Vega-Tables was indeed a studio master - the 'demo' tag is something it got from the TSS compilers. Likewise Brian's piano/vocal version of Surf's Up. Not much to either but it wouldn't be accurate to call them demos. Would these dates change anything about your H&V version hypotheses, dumdangel? Also, I really wish there was an easy way to see the earliest and latest dates when any given H&V session happened. It feels like the info is all over the place.
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Post by zebulan on May 16, 2020 18:13:13 GMT -5
Very interesting! I'm starting to think that the Sunshine fade became the H&V fade as soon as Barnyard stopped being part of H&V. According to this, Barnyard was recorded on December 13. And it was recorded during a H&V session, right? So from October to mid December, guess the H&V structure remained relatively similar to the Humble Harv demo. The structure of that demo is Verse 1&2 -> IiGS -> Barnyard, with the pause between IiGS and Barnyard (along with Brian's "we're still working ... there's another section happening" implying that there's supposed to be more between the two. I assume Barnyard must be the fade, since the master tape fades out. There are only three other sections (that I know of) recorded around this time (the last of which might actually be from later): - The Durrie Parks I'm in Great Shape; likely recorded on December 19 according to jiggy22
- the original December harpsichord Children Were Raised described here; probably from a close date to the IiGS, since it appears on the same acetate
- Part 3 Chimes (maybe from the same date according to this post, but possibly not)
If we know that Part 3 Chimes had to have been recorded at Columbia, what's the full list of possible sessions it could have been recorded in? (I assume we have dates for every H&V session at Columbia.)
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Post by Cam Mott on May 16, 2020 21:36:19 GMT -5
So when are you suggesting "Tag to Part 1" was recorded?
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Post by zebulan on May 16, 2020 23:19:00 GMT -5
What if the Dec 27 work for Wonderful actually refers to Part 1 Tag? Is that even possible? I'm half-joking, but I keep switching back and forth on what I think this section was for; I actually have a conflicting hypothesis about it below.
If the Barnyard vocals (recorded as a H&V session) were from Dec 27/28, then that would mean there was a period of overlap where both Bicycle Rider and Barnyard were part of H&V, which is something I never thought possible before this whole session date discussion. This has certainly been fun to think about!
I can definitely buy Chimes being from Dec 27/28, especially if Bicycle Rider was already part of H&V by that time. It seems to work following Bicycle Rider. You can either hard cut to it or wait a bit longer and fade out on the fuzz bass. No idea if Chimes would work coming after the December IiGS since we don't really know how that section sounds at start and finish.
The ending of Chimes sounds a little bit like Pickup to 3rd Verse, so perhaps CWR would follow. On the other hand, since Pickup to 3rd Verse may be from Jan 3, just a few days later, that could be an indicator of any of the following: - Chimes being scrapped by Jan 3. - Chimes being moved to another part of the song by Jan 3. - Chimes never being intended to precede CWR, with Pickup to 3rd Verse already planned for that purpose by Dec 27/28, or else CWR simply followed Bicycle Rider directly.
If Chimes is from late Dec and part 1 Tag is from Jan 3, then Chimes was probably scrapped by Jan 3. I don't see how it can fit into the song alongside Bicycle Rider and Part 1 Tag without making the song too long (and too complicated).
Something else that has occurred to me is that Part 1 Tag might flow well into Bicycle Rider. You could insert Mission Pak (if it conceptually existed at that point) between the two to soften the transition if necessary. I wonder if the Jan 3 H&V structure was something like:
Verse 1&2 -> Part 1 Tag -> (maybe) Mission Pak -> Bicycle Rider -> Pickup to 3rd Verse -> CWR -> Three Score -> Vocal Bridge (or Whistling Bridge) -> Barnyard (or Sunshine fade)
I think the most questionable part is getting from Verse 1&2 to Part 1 Tag. Would a hard splice work? Letting the section fade out like on some of the acetate mixes seems to work.
I could buy that Brian created Part 1 Tag to transition from Verse 1&2 to Bicycle Rider. If that's the case, then here's a little hypothesis of what happened next:
Brian likely was unsatisfied with the pacing of the song, and tried to shorten the time between the verse and BR using Bridge to Indians and the Verse Edit Experiment. When that felt too abrupt, he temporarily dropped BR from the song, resulting in the Feb 10 Cantina mix. But still wanting to use the BR melody, he ended up restructuring the song again using Piano Ditty (a reworked BR), and later the section that would become the basis for the Smiley chorus.
I don't think the "Part 1" in Part 1 Tag refers to the a-side. I'm not convinced it has enough energy to act as a fade for H&V, and the more I think about it, I can't see Brian choosing it over Barnyard or the Sunshine fade. And if "Part 1" doesn't refer to the a-side, I think it has to refer to Verse 1&2.
On another note, do we have an idea of when the 12-track tracklist was written? It seems that I'm in Great Shape was its own track at the time it was written, with the status of The Old Master Painter somewhat in question with crossed-out parentheses.
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zaval80
Dude/Dudette
Posts: 83
Likes: 27
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Post by zaval80 on May 17, 2020 8:11:56 GMT -5
Or maybe 'Part 1' here just refers to the verse track I haven't looked into H&V yet, but for GV, the structure was set in stone: Part 1 (A) - V1C1V2C2 Part 2 (B) - bridge 1 Part 3 (C) - bridge 2 Part 4 (D) - fade (C3 and everything after) Are there any specific references like "from the top of A" (from the beginning of Part 1, that is) in the banter on the session tapes? anything like "four" which does not refer to any Take 4 (such "four" = Part 4 = D), "D", "tag", whatever? references to keys specific for certain parts? and of course, any specific versions (Cantina) may have a different structure.
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