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Post by zebulan on May 17, 2020 8:15:45 GMT -5
Something I had forgotten until just now is that the Bicycle Rider tapes with the overdubs start in the middle of the (instrumental) first round, so splicing Bicycle Rider into the song would likely mean including only the second half with vocals. That certainly makes the Verse -> Part 1 Tag -> BR sequence more plausible. Part 1 Tag effectively replaces the instrumental first half of BR.
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Post by Cam Mott on May 17, 2020 9:06:04 GMT -5
I don't know if Peter Reum is around but I believe Dec. 10 is the date Polley in Production received the 12 track list.
I dont remember anything specific, except maybe, according to Brad Elliot, Engemann was informed by December 16 that the single wouldn't be ready until January 13ish. Also he started the A SIDE master 57020 on the 19th.
Edit: on Nov. 24 H&V had a Christmas release date. By Dec. 16 it had already had a revised January 1 due date which moved to the 13th. New master on 19th. Comparing that to session dates for H&V might explain something.
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Post by zebulan on May 17, 2020 10:01:12 GMT -5
Or maybe 'Part 1' here just refers to the verse track I haven't looked into H&V yet, but for GV, the structure was set in stone: Part 1 (A) - V1C1V2C2 Part 2 (B) - bridge 1 Part 3 (C) - bridge 2 Part 4 (D) - fade (C3 and everything after) Are there any specific references like "from the top of A" (from the beginning of Part 1, that is) in the banter on the session tapes? anything like "four" which does not refer to any Take 4 (such "four" = Part 4 = D), "D", "tag", whatever? references to keys specific for certain parts? and of course, any specific versions (Cantina) may have a different structure. Chimes is called "Heroes and Villains Part 3 (take 1)" by the slate guy. (Heard on TSS.) Part 1 Tag is called "Part 1 Tag" by Brian on tape (repeated louder by the slate guy; heard on Heroes and Villains Sessions Vol. 2), and (later?) "Tag to Part 1" by the slate guy. (Heard on TSS.) The slate guy calls Cantina "Ending... or uh, give me a slate" and then Brian says "Heroes and Villains Part 2" during the initial backing track session. During the vocal overdubs, the slate guy calls it simply "Cantina". (Both heard on TSS.) The Dit Dit Dit Chant is called "Version 4 Part 2 (take 2)" by the slate guy. (Heard on Archaeology.) The piano rehearsal version of Animals (the chant, not the grunting that was tacked on later) with the Wish Upon a Star bridge is called "Heroes and Villains Part 2" by Brian. (Heard on TSS.) Gee is called "Heroes and Villains Part 2 Revised Version (take 1)" by the slate guy. (Heard on TSS.) The slate guy calls the Clip-Clop basic track "Part 2 Heroes and Villains (take 1) ... Revised Version". (Heard on TSS.)
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zaval80
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Post by zaval80 on May 17, 2020 10:45:25 GMT -5
Thank you! So at least some of the sections you've mentioned relate, as noted here per Cam Mott's H&V thread and confirmed on tape:
Feb 20 57020: Heroes & Villains
> “HEROES AND VILLIANS, PART 2” (GEE)
> “PART 2, HEROES AND VILLIANS, REVISED VERSION” (BICYCLE RIDER THEME)
> PART 3 (ANIMALS)
> PART 4 (“DIT, DIT, DIT, H&V” BICYCLE RIDER THEME)
they clearly fall together even from what we have on TSS. "Clip-clop", obviously. I wonder if all of these belong to "Part 2 revised version", probably whoever called out the slates did not mention "revised version" every time. But it could be that some did not make it to the revision.
Are there any on-tape clues along the lines I've supposed on SOT UM Vol 17? SOT Source Tape, H & V Sessions Vol 1 and 2, whatever? and of course, session tapes could be edited (like on TSS) and jumbled, so it's important to notice any clues in their proper context.
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Post by Cam Mott on May 17, 2020 11:37:32 GMT -5
You mentioned IIGS, the timeline is the thing?
Nov 4
H&V demo
until just past Nov 24
Christmas due date
Dec 10
12 track list received including titles H&V and IIGS (copies would have also gone to Art Director and Legal and Editorial I think)
Dec 13
H&V session
Sometime between just past Nov. 24 to Dec 16
Due date is January 1 (possibly after Dec 13)
Dec 16
due date delayed to January 13
Dec 19
H&V Session for new master
IIGS apparently became it's own title between Nov. 4 and before December 10th. Probably.
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Post by zebulan on May 17, 2020 12:13:30 GMT -5
Thanks Cam! Hmm, the Great Shape inclusion on the tracklist doesn't get any less confusing then. Weird hard splice on one of those H&V reels aside, it does seem likely that the way Brian cut Bicycle Rider out of Worms meant he was only gonna use the second half starting from the vocals, and some of the preceding part was left as an overdub count-in that'd be mixed out. The only problem with that coming after anything (including Tag to Part 1) is the key, which is a total mismatch. Obviously he later re-recorded it in Abm and then Ebm so it'd actually make musical sense but the baffling thing here is those Bridge to Indians early takes ending on an F7 hum, which WOULD make the change to Gm smoothly, but the idea didn't make it to the master for some reason?? Then those rough mix fragments make it sound like he was gonna blunt-force it to keep the momentum going regardless of musicality. Part 3 makes my brain hurt. It's intentionally discordant and not really in a 'key', but it starts and ends on E notes and frankly sounds awful coming before or after anything else. Maybe the plan was to speed it up to F like the March version, then it'd work after Bicycle Rider, but unless a test edit turns up proving that was the intention I don't think we'll ever know. It's at least compatible with Do a Lot, if that was actually meant for Heroes at some point. Yeah, starting to see why he kept re-recording this thing... If Mission Pak conceptually existed early enough, you could use that to smooth the transition from Part 1 Tag to BR. Here's my hypothesis about what's up with Bridge to Indians: in the early takes, the boys keep taking too long to do the F7 hum. "Why don't we overdub it?" So they decide to overdub it later. But after recording the master take, perhaps the session time is running short. Brian now has all he needs to find out if the transition will work as well as it does in his head. So before spending any more time on the section, he proceeds to create a rough mix: Verse Edit Experiment. Upon hearing it, Brian realizes the transition simply doesn't work as well as he had hoped it would. Now there's no reason to try overdubbing the final note. Bridge to Indians is scrapped, and Brian returns to the drawing board, eventually resulting in the Feb 10 Cantina mix. I don't know if Peter Reum is around but I believe Dec. 10 is the date Polley in Production received the 12 track list. If that date is correct, then that means I'm in Great Shape was already a separate track by December 10, despite the December IiGS and Barnyard vocals seemingly both being recorded as Heroes and Villains sections after this date. Alright, I'm about to go on a wild tangent of speculation. Watch out: I'm starting to think dumdangel is at least partially right about the H&V single initially being intended to serve as an album sampler. Do a Lot works really well with the cornucopia version of Vega-Tables, yet it's bundled with H&V sections. Bicycle Rider is obviously taken from DYLW. That Sunshine fade mix saltymarshmallow heard uses the Brian backing vocals with Mike's lead. I'm in Great Shape was already its own track. Even the first time we hear H&V performed (described as "our next record", meaning the next single), I'm in Great Shape and Barnyard are in there, despite being only tangentially related in terms of lyrics. A bit more questionable, but Part 1 Tag fits suspiciously well with Wonderful. And of course, the Chimes remake has been used as a Mrs. O'Leary's Cow intro by fans for decades. Coincidences? Maybe. Isn't Brian quoted as saying something along the lines of being afraid to spoil too much about the album? If H&V was self-contained, you would only really be spoiling one song out of 10-12. Perhaps this is why he seemed so intent on using the original BR recording, rather than using the seemingly obvious solution of remaking it in a different key. H&V was to serve as a preview of SMiLE as a whole, and so he wanted to use the same exact sections that would be used across the album. Of course, if the H&V single was an album sampler, then H&V would have to have been different on the album itself. My guess is that it would have served a similar function as The Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band on the album of the same name. Perhaps open the album with Verse 1&2 + Vocal Bridge or something, leading into another track (DYLW?), and later return to H&V (at the end of side A; or maybe even side B as a reprise before the grand finale: Surf's Up) with CWR through Sunny Down Snuff (which, if it sounded similar to Prelude to Fade, would make for a fitting penultimate moment before the ending track of the album). Alternatively, I guess you could just have a single-track verses-only H&V on the album, going something like Verse 1&2 -> Vocal Bridge -> CWR -> Three Score -> Sunny Down Snuff. Now, if this album sampler idea was real, then it was likely abandoned (at least temporarily) after Verse Edit Experiment. The Feb 10 Cantina mix is very self-contained with all but one of its sections being unique to H&V, and even the Sunshine fade had its lead vocal removed to get rid of the YAMS connection. After deciding to reject the Cantina mix, Brian then creates Piano Ditty, finally doing what one would have expected him to do: rerecord BR in a different key. This may also have been when the lyrics changed from "Bicycle Rider, just see" to "Heroes and Villains, just see". Brian was still treating H&V as its own song as with the Cantina mix, but he was now remaking sections from other songs. Perhaps he had now settled on using the same mix for both single and album (and DYLW had finally been scrapped), or perhaps he was taking a different approach to the album sampler idea by simply using Heroes-ified versions of sections from other songs to make the single. One complication is that the BR overdubs prevent you from using BR in DYLW unless you use it the same way as H&V: without the instrumental first half. Would that work? I mean, you could theoretically splice the overdubbed second half onto the end of the instrumental first half in the DYLW master takes, but it would be kind of tricky and perhaps needlessly complicated. Or maybe I'm in Great Shape just went from being a H&V section to a separate track to a H&V section again, and Brian really just wanted to use BR and Do a Lot as dedicated H&V sections at one point with no lyrical changes. H&V truly is a puzzle.
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Post by Cam Mott on May 17, 2020 14:23:19 GMT -5
Maybe TAG TO PART 1 we know was a fade not yet faded or intended as a tag without fade. In 2 days he started a second side of H&V maybe that unique circumstance warranted a fairly unique ending between sides.
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M.I.U. Fan
Kahuna
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Post by M.I.U. Fan on May 17, 2020 14:51:02 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I'm lost. What is:
"piano rehearsal version of Animals with the Wish Upon a Star bridge"
What track no. is this on the box? Thx.
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zaval80
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Post by zaval80 on May 17, 2020 15:18:46 GMT -5
I think "Tag to Part 1" means not the fade to "H&V Part 1" A-side or whatever, but just a section which follows "Part 1" in the song. Consider the alternate "Cantina" version. We have the following main sections:
1) doubled verse - let's call it V1V2 - (here, section's rough length is stated everywhere) 42" - that's "Part 1" 2) acapella verse - VAc, length 21" - if something else is in this place, that would be "tag to Part 1". Alternatively, any such tag like this could be a part of its own. But here we have, in effect, a verse, but without backing (version with backing exists). It looks it's called "verse 3" and not a "tag" on tapes described below. 3) "cantina" - 28" + "you're under arrest" bit, 3". Cantina is bridge, even though they avoided to call it as such on the tape boxes - it's "Part 2". It originated from piano noodlings at some early stage also called "H&V Part 2" on tape. Also, "Cantina" is called "ending" on tape, because in an earlier version it was placed closer to the end of the song. 4) "My children", 12" - that's obviously a bridge, so a separate part. It seems this is "bridge to 3rd verse". 5) "at 3 score...", 9" - V3 (but VAc could be named V3, too). I am not sure if it makes sense to number a verse as a separate part. 6) Dumb Whistle & explosion, 9" - it's recognized as a part - "bridge to fade", or "bridge to Part 2" as per the tapeboxes? And though the folks who left their notes on tapeboxes avoid the "tag" label, this could be "Tag to Part 1"; it's duration is short and quite a lot is taken by a sound effect. 7) Fade
This is a rough scheme which demonstrates that the alternate mix of H&V had no chorus. As the released single goes something like
V (46) > C (41) > V (21) > VAc (23) > B (11) > tag (12) > tag (21) > C (it could be that some "tags" here are really bridges, considering their length - this needs to be considered, length of a section)
, I think something like that must have been in the earlier version of H&V, and that's why we have all these test edit experiments of V > C and even of C > V, and the SOT 17 1-16 edit which is V1 > tag 2 > B2 > V2 > C. They just returned to a variation on some earlier design.
We have to carefully identify every possible section - what's its length, are there any clue marks, could it be a tag or whatever else, and to check out the order in which they were recorded, and how this information is in accord with the famous master numbers. I am sure more connections could be found out with this simple approach.
P.S. I've edited the structures of "Cantina" alternate and the 45 version a bit. P.P.S. I've made yet other edits in the "Cantina" version as per 2 posts of mine below concerning the possible content of 1/31 and 2/10 tapes.
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zaval80
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Post by zaval80 on May 17, 2020 16:33:01 GMT -5
A speculation on the 1/31 version - straight from the H&V thread by Cam Mott, with my comments after the names of sections. It could be this was something like good ole "Cantina" with two bits near the end swapped:
(D) “On the spine, the tape is labeled "Heroes & Villains." On either the front or the back, though, the label FOR THE ENTIRE TAPE read "Heroes & Villains - 1st Part."”
“1/31/67 - MISSING FROM REEL
Mixdown tape for alternate version of HEROES AND VILLAINS - but not certain which version (might have been the same as: p09189383)
From tape box:
HEROS AND VILLAINS - 1ST PART
1 - 1st version of PT-1 - must be V1
2 - 2nd version of PT-1 with more echo - a variation of V1 (or VAc?)
3 - 1st version of PT-2 - could be "Cantina" (if yes, it's not a bridge under this tape terminology)
4 Bridge to 3rd verses (or versions) (start with “My Children”) - yes "My Children" is a bridge and yes, it introduces the verse
after V1 and VAc which must be V3 and not V2 as I thought
5 Bridge To PT Two (whistle Part) - Dumb whistle? a bridge, after all? note how they avoid mentioning a "tag" anywhere. Switched order as per "Cantina" alternate?
(note - EDITED, indicating all above parts)
6 - 3rd verses - "At 3 score and 5", somehow after 2 bridges here and not after "Bridge to 3rd verses" - Switched order as per "Cantina" alternate?
7 BRIDGE (Last item crossed out) - crossed out, as we have some kind of "Fade" here?
NOTE: THIS REEL HAS HAD ALL OF THE ABOVE REMOVED TO AN UNKNOWN REEL 12/31/85 J. PETERS
BLANK TAPE ONLY”
Alan Boyd
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zaval80
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Post by zaval80 on May 17, 2020 16:43:39 GMT -5
Same thing for the "Cantina" tape as found in the H&V thread:
(G)
Tapebox notes:
“2/10/67 - “heros & Villains” as of 2/10/67 master
1st verse
2nd verse - 2 verses of 21" each are doubled
3rd verse (all edited together) - yes, 3rd verse here of 21" is VAc
1 - bridge to 3rd verse - "My Children"? note the name is still the same in this case
2 - bridge to fade - "Dumb Whistle"?
3 - cantina - huh? why it's here? because it's called "ending" on the tape? note it's not called a bridge. It's a "Part 2".
4 - 2nd verse - "At 3 score and 5" - verse 3 in effect; again, not after any "bridge to 3rd verse" here (this alone could indicate yet another earlier sequence)
5 - fade
(The above crossed out sort of...)”
Alan Boyd
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on May 17, 2020 16:44:26 GMT -5
Would these dates change anything about your H&V version hypotheses, dumdangel? Not really. I'm of the the persuasion that Do a Lot and Tag to Part 1 aren't H&V sections. Pickup to 3rd Verse is used in the 3rd Version of H&V as a bridge between All Day and Children Were Raised (the 3rd Verse). Bridge to Indians is used to transition from the H&V Verses to Do You Like Worms, and is later used in H&V Versions 5 - 7 as a transition between the H&V Verses and the Choruses. It's great to see everyone talking deeply about H&V, but I think there are some areas where you guys might be thinking too hard. Have you ever considered that the Version of Heroes and Villains on the Smile album may have been different than the Single Version Brian was trying to create? It's a theory I cling to because it makes things make a bit more sense for me. I'm In Great Shape and Barnyard are a part of the Barnyard Suite on Smile (the track titled I'm In Great Shape), but were used in the Heroes and Villains Single in December (H&V Version 2). Obviously Brian would not have used both sections twice on the album, so assuming Brian wasn't out of his mind and knew what he was doing, you must conclude that the Heroes and Villains Single is different from the order of things on the Smile Album. Maybe Brian transitioning from the H&V Verses to Do You Like Worms was for the album, not the Single. Try looking at things from this perspective, it makes things make a bit more sense. I've only found Mission Pak to work in one area, and that's between the long Piano Theme and the Verse Vocal Bridges. I'll give you guys another preview of my upcoming thread to demonstrate: Heroes and Villains: Part 1 - Version 5
The Prelude was saved for Part 2 in this mix, before it was moved over to Side A in the next mix.
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zaval80
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Post by zaval80 on May 17, 2020 17:09:43 GMT -5
It's great to see everyone talking deeply about H&V, but I think there are some areas where you guys might be thinking too hard. Have you ever considered that the Version of Heroes and Villains on the Smile album may have been different than the Single Version Brian was trying to create? I've suggested in the past in the GV thread that what Brian worked on during S7 and S8 (June 16th, 18th), in effect means the alternate version, only this is not supported by anything but the very strange quality of the music. But with GV, the basic structure was always the same except for those sessions. With H&V, obviously he had much more opportunities, as the structure was changed too often, not to mention the edit of "chant" sections (Side 2 of the single or something for incorporation into the album?) the only difference, he could have issued a-la Phil Spector any stupid little thing on Side 2, but an album version would've required something better, comparable with Side 1.
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Post by zebulan on May 17, 2020 20:50:05 GMT -5
Re zaval80:
I definitely think Cantina was never considered a "bridge". Dumb Whistle is often called Whistling Bridge, but I have no idea where that title comes from.
It's definitely a good point to remember that CWR was called "Bridge to 3rd Verse" (and indeed acts as one), even though melodically it's one half of the verse, with Three Score forming the second half.
Re sloopjohnb72:
Good point about Mission Pak. I now agree; it was likely meant to transition into, rather than from, the verse. And it looks like dumdangel agrees as well!
I think you're also probably right about Mission Pak replacing Pickup to 3rd Verse or vice-versa.
Re dumdangel:
The supposed date for the tracklist showing IiGS as a separate track before the final H&V sessions for IiGS and Barnyard definitely has me closer to your mindset than before.
As for Part 1 Tag and Do a Lot, I really can't make up my mind. If the H&V single was supposed to use parts from other songs as you suggest, then they could certainly have been intended for both the H&V single and the different album tracks. I'm inclined to think they were at least intended for the H&V single at some point since they're included in a compilation filled with other H&V sections. Also, if IiGS can fit into the H&V single, then lyrically so can Do a Lot. As for whether it's possible to make it fit musically... I have no idea.
I do think Do a Lot in particular must have initially been created for either Vega-Tables (most likely) or the I'm in Great Shape track, but that doesn't rule out it also being part of the H&V single.
Part 1 Tag is a bit more difficult to determine. Would Brian really call it "Part 1 Tag" if it was a Wonderful section? One might think he would call it "Part 1 Insert" or "Wonderful Insert" or even "Wonderful Tag". As stated before, I don't think it could be a H&V fade, so that means it must either be a tag to the first H&V verse section, or else a tag inserted into the middle (and/or the end) of Wonderful.
If it was indeed only ever a Wonderful section, that would certainly help a lot in figuring out the structure of the late December / early January H&V versions.
As my recent Wonderful mix shows, Part 1 Tag works great as part of Wonderful. So the question is: does Part 1 Tag work as a tag to H&V Part 1? If the answer is no, then I guess by process of elimination, Part 1 Tag almost has to be a Wonderful section.
Good reminder about Pickup to 3rd Verse most likely following All Day (considering the early takes on Heroes and Villains Sessions Vol. 2).
That H&V mix you posted definitely sounds plausible. The transition from Whistling Bridge to Piano Ditty feels a bit off, but that might just be because of the pitch-shifted vocals.
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Post by M.I.U. Fan on May 17, 2020 21:06:16 GMT -5
Was the H&V piano tag part a rewrite of the Wind Chimes tag? The lower piano note motifs especially are very similar. Is this a case of Brian swiping parts from other songs again in hope of finishing Heroes or more fuel to the "Smile sneak preview" bside theory?
Also - has this part ever been released with the handclaps intact? Somewhere I have a recording of them about to overdub the claps but then it doesn't happen. Wasnt included on the Sessions box, maybe because the claps were overdubbed during mix down.
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Post by zebulan on May 17, 2020 21:37:25 GMT -5
The hand clap overdub for Part 1 Tag has never been officially released, as far as I am aware. It's on track 22 of the Heroes and Villains Sessions Vol. 2 bootleg. I don't know if it appears on any other bootlegs. I made a test H&V mix of Verse 1&2 -> Part 1 Tag -> CWR to see how it sounds. Let me know what you think, and feel free to point out if there's a better way to cut the two sections together. vocaroo.com/m2e3VR0vMtVIn my opinion, it doesn't work nearly as well as it does in my Wonderful mix: vocaroo.com/3PLOFj3TDQFGoing by hearing alone, it certainly sounds like Part 1 Tag belongs in Wonderful more.
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Post by M.I.U. Fan on May 18, 2020 0:07:18 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't understand that part. Doesn't seem to fit H&V. I've never tried to integrate it anywhere in my custom roll as it doesn't really do anything for me as a piece of music. Maybe it needs those handclaps to really take off! But as Wind Chimes has a similar tag this seems redundant, unless that was the plan (or if Wind Chimes was already rejected in his mind).
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zaval80
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Post by zaval80 on May 18, 2020 5:40:23 GMT -5
Re zaval80: I definitely think Cantina was never considered a "bridge". Dumb Whistle is often called Whistling Bridge, but I have no idea where that title comes from. It's definitely a good point to remember that CWR was called "Bridge to 3rd Verse" (and indeed acts as one), even though melodically it's one half of the verse, with Three Score forming the second half. Cantina is a bridge only in a musical sense, but Brian considered it "Part 2" because it's part 2 of the H & V fabula (V describes heroes, C - villains, and then there is Part 2 as continuation of the story, but basically it's nothing but a bridge). The big problem with the "Cantina" alternate is the absence of a chorus, so despite it's proper length, it's no good for a single; also, the villains are not represented. CWR doesn't have the same beat as the verse, while Three Score is verse proper, just shortened - yet CWR is kinda long for a pick-up. I'll have to look more into this and everything else, though.
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bygone
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Post by bygone on May 18, 2020 11:38:56 GMT -5
It's an extended cantina version of H&V, with "Tag" coming right after "Prelude to fade" (in which the flutter horn ending part is omitted): Verse Acapella verse
Cantina
Children were raised ("often wise")
Verse ("at three-score five")
Bridge to Indians (cross-cutting into--)
Prelude to fade (flutter horn ending cut out)
Tag to part 1 (with moaning vocals from "Animals")
Dumb Whistle/Tape explosion
Fade I still think this sequence flows quite good, even though I don't actually use it on my own SMiLE-mixes. Especially regarding the Tag, this particular edit was one of the few "breakthroughs" I encountered during my own attempts to edit SMiLE.
Following this template, you could also go from "Dumb whistle/tape explosion" to verse once again ("stand or fall") and then proceed with the rest of the song as it is in Smiley Smile/Single version. That way every essential lyric gets used and you have a pretty solid alternate version of H&V. But still, it's no match for more official versions of this song imho...
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Post by Cam Mott on May 18, 2020 11:42:55 GMT -5
The older I get the easier I get lost.
I'm not arguing with anything (I'm not even sure anybody is arguing this) because I'm probably confused but it seems to me the documentation is pretty clear that H&V 57020 is the "FIRST PART" according to tape box and Brian's correction of the engineer on the track noted as "TAG TO PART 1" and corrected by Brian to just "TAG" and then "FIRST PART TAG".
I don't doubt the verses are also PART 1 as noted and implied by notations "PART 2" etc..
Again, I know this is nitpicky, but H&V 57020 master was the "FIRST PART" as noted and slated which was assembled from its own parts such as PART 1 and PART 2. So it seems to me when Brian says "TAG" and "FIRST PART TAG" he means the TAG to whole H&V "FIRST PART" master 57020 and not the section labeled "PT 1" of the "FIRST PART".
Who's on "first"?
I don't know.
Exactly!
Also doesn't it peter out as per other tags = fades?
Be kind.
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zaval80
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Post by zaval80 on May 18, 2020 12:01:10 GMT -5
I think that in the terminology of H & V sessions tag is an "outro", something attached to the end of a section - and "pick-up" is the opposite, something attached to the beginning. Both serve as transitions from one section to another. Why would finished versions of Part 1, 2 single need a tag? If I remember right, Brian thought in terms of "fade" for the endings of songs.
I've listened to takes of "Hold On", it is announced somewhere on TSS, I think, as "Part 2 of H&V, take 1, revised version". I think this slate (part 2 of) is a clear evidence in support for "Side B". But "Hold On" had an interesting evolution, from a piano "Bicycle Rider" theme which is a chorus, to something like a bridge if I am not mistaken.
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Post by Cam Mott on May 18, 2020 12:26:35 GMT -5
I haven't done a study of BW's use of "tag" vs. "fade", my impression is they were interchangable to him but maybe not.
Isn't a "tag" traditionally an ending of a song without a fade vs. an outro fade ending?
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Post by zebulan on May 18, 2020 12:38:32 GMT -5
I just listened to Heroes and Villains Sessions Vol. 2 track 21. Here is the exact dialogue:
Brian: "Part 1 Tag" (barely audible, you have to crank the volume up; headphones recommended)
Slate guy: "Part 1 Tag Take 1" (repeating what Brian said)
Note that both Brian and the slate guy say "part 1", not "first part".
What's notable is that take 1 (tracks 20 and 21) lasts 3 rounds and then ends part way through a round. The master take (track 22, the one the hand clap overdub was attempted on) lasts only 2 rounds... but ends exactly the same way.
On TSS, the dialogue goes:
Slate guy: "What would you like to call this?"
Brian: "Uh, Tag"
Slate guy: "Tag to Part 1?"
Brian: "Yeah" (barely audible)
There then appears to be a bit of a cut before the take (the same take 1 heard on the bootleg) begins. It seems quite clear that the dialogue heard on TSS occurred right before the dialogue on the bootleg. The full dialogue would be:
Slate guy: "What would you like to call this?"
Brian: "Uh, Tag"
Slate guy: "Tag to Part 1?"
Brian: "Yeah ... Part 1 Tag" (barely audible)
Slate guy: "Part 1 Tag Take 1"
Note that both Brian and the slate guy always use the term "part 1", not "first part".
Shortening the section on the later take definitely doesn't seem like something you'd do for a fade, and it's also quite suspicious that he ends in exactly the same spot.
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Post by zebulan on May 18, 2020 12:48:15 GMT -5
I've listened to takes of "Hold On", it is announced somewhere on TSS, I think, as "Part 2 of H&V, take 1, revised version". I think this slate (part 2 of) is a clear evidence in support for "Side B". But "Hold On" had an interesting evolution, from a piano "Bicycle Rider" theme which is a chorus, to something like a bridge if I am not mistaken. I just listened to the TSS track. The slate guy says "Uh, part 2, [uh/of], Heroes and Villains take 1... revised version". I can't tell if he's saying "uh" or "of". It sounds like it could be "of" with a slang so there's no "f" sound, but I'm not sure. I don't think I'd call it an "evolution". The basic track remains the same in the master take as in the early takes, doesn't it? I would assume that Brian was always planning to overdub the vocal parts he did.
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zaval80
Dude/Dudette
Posts: 83
Likes: 27
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Post by zaval80 on May 18, 2020 12:48:25 GMT -5
I think the meaning of attachment to something is what's important for a tag here.
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