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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Sept 5, 2019 10:11:28 GMT -5
So many times as I'm studying the Smile Sessions, I find myself pondering many questions as I try to understand the material more. I thought it would be constructive to form this thread as a place for everyone to submit their own questions about their understanding of the Smile material, and hear what the other members of the forum think. Let's try to keep theory's/beliefs out of this thread. This is not a place for mixes. I'll start us off with a question that's been on my mind for some time now: - Why were there 2 different versions of Our Prayer? One in C#m and the other in D#m. What songs were they to open for? And which one did Brian end up using? I've included 2 remakes of Our Prayer below. This first one is the lost version that's in C#m: Our Prayer ver1 - DemoThis 2nd Version is the version we all know and love in D#m: Our Prayer ver2 - Demo
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Post by catbirdman on Sept 5, 2019 10:20:58 GMT -5
So many times as I'm studying the Smile Sessions, I find myself pondering many questions as I try to understand the material more. I thought it would be constructive to form this thread as a place for everyone to submit their own questions about their understanding of the Smile material, and hear what the other members of the forum think. Let's try to keep theory's/beliefs out of this thread. This is not a place for mixes. I'll start us off with a question that's been on my mind for some time now: - Why were their 2 versions of Our Prayer? One in C#m and the other in D#m. What songs were they to open for? And which one did Brian end up using? There is no definitive answer to this, but it is possible that Prayer was at one point in time intended to precede Heroes and Villains, which is in the key of C#. We do know that when Brian recorded the first version of Prayer, he talked about it being an intro to the album. Heroes would be a natural candidate for the first "proper" track to follow the intro. Maybe...maybe Brian then changed his mind and envisioned a different track to follow Prayer - Good Vibrations maybe? Thus he changed the key. Nobody knows.
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Sept 5, 2019 10:29:36 GMT -5
Occam's razor: Brian just changed the key of Prayer because it sounded better and some of the group (noticeably Carl) were struggling with it that low. The first version was also left unfinished. Do we have evidence for the latter? There is no definitive answer to this, but it is possible that Prayer was at one point in time intended to precede Heroes and Villains, which is in the key of C#. We do know that when Brian recorded the first version of Prayer, he talked about it being an intro to the album. Heroes would be a natural candidate for the first "proper" track to follow the intro. Maybe...maybe Brian then changed his mind and envisioned a different track to follow Prayer - Good Vibrations maybe? Thus he changed the key. Nobody knows. I agree, these are the most plausible explanations. Good thinking! Originally, Brian would open Smile with Heroes and Villains, but he decided to use Good Vibrations instead. I have two follow up questions: 1) What are the odds that Brian would have decided to go back to his original plan of opening with Heroes and Villains and the original version of Our Prayer? 2) If not, how would the album take us from Good Vibrations into Heroes and Villains?
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Sept 5, 2019 11:02:05 GMT -5
Do we have evidence for the latter? Yes, because they didn't manage to get through every section and there's no edited master or double-tracking. If it was finished then that would mean an unexplained missing second tape. I highly doubt that raising the key had anything to do with matching another track though, regardless of that. Brian liked to rewrite things a lot and there's not a precedent for it anywhere else in his work. Wasn't that the only thing they were working on that night? Wouldn't the process of creating an edited master involve going back and chopping out inordinate amounts of tape? Maybe we don't hear them going thru every section because the tape that did contain them going thru the other sections was cut out while the master was being edited together. We don't have the session tape for every section in the 2nd version too. I also don't think a missing 2nd tape is too far fetched of an idea. They went up to take 60 on the Bridge to Indians(?), and that's just one section. With any other album, I wouldn't blink twice at a key shift in a remake of a song, but since this is Smile, I throw the brakes. The majority or remakes in Smile changed keys from their predecessors. Why?? Not just the keys too, but the rhythm and feel of the tracks. Why? I can only assume because the section/song was moved amongst other songs and it would fit better that way. In Our Prayer's case, this is a vocal introduction for a song, it has to be in the same key, otherwise the album is already off to a terrible start. A key change is important, because it means there's a structure change too. I doubt looking for precedence in his early or later works would help us much. This music is his pinnacle. Nothing like it before or since.
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Sept 5, 2019 12:34:37 GMT -5
It is possible that takes could've been cut out and moved to a separate missing reel (that did happen a few times), just for this particular case I've never seen any mention of it. There'd be physical evidence left on the tape if parts were removed, E.G. Wonderful and My Only Sunshine, where the master takes on the 4-track are just...gone. Both sessions were obviously edited down dramatically for release but the second version did cover every section because we have direct evidence for it, while there's no evidence bootlegged or otherwise for the first version of Prayer going beyond a few trial takes. For me, I just assume they got it done, especially since it was the only thing they were working on. What's interesting about the masters for Wonderful and The Old Master Painter missing, is that both of those tracks had edited masters. Wonderful was sped down a full step, while The Old Master Painter master contains footage from the master take (14 I believe) and take 11. I find that interesting that both were missing. What does it mean about the other missing masters... My bad about saying the 2nd version's sections didn't contain outtakes for all sections. I don't have that track quite memorized. We can't rely on only evidence for Smile, especially since the majority of it was destroyed. We have to approach this differently, like a criminal in a crime who covered his tracks. We need to focus on purpose and intent. This 1st version of Our Prayer also mirrors the situation of the 3rd version of the Heroes and Villains verse. We have the footage of them rehearsing it, but that's it. The master take of it is gone. Why? Because it was edited. It was slowed down 3 semitones. tl;dr If they went in the studio, I believe it got done. There doesn't have to be a logical reason behind rewriting songs or coming up with new arrangements beyond wanting to try out new ideas. Brian's done it constantly throughout the whole of his career, not just while Smile was happening, you could start asking the same thing about the key changes in the late '67 Surf's Up or turning Our New Home into Our Sweet Love and get nowhere. Agreed, and I have asked the same about those key changes, especially for the former. But just because there doesn't have to, doesn't mean that there wasn't. What makes these re-arrangements puzzling is how quickly they were recorded. Our New Home and Our Sweet Love are years apart. Wind Chimes version 2 was recorded less than a month after it's 1st version, and quite quickly after Holidays was recorded. Why? I don't think the 'wanting to try new ideas' theory works considering how quickly Smile was recorded.
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Sept 5, 2019 16:56:04 GMT -5
The master takes for Wonderful and Sunshine are missing from the 4-track session tapes but both still survive in other ways. The Wonderful backing track exists as a mono dub onto an 8-track comp reel copy with the backing vocals (but no Brian lead), but Sunshine Part 1 is gone, the master take is only preserved via the mono mix with Dennis's lead vocal. I'm pretty sure we only have the track for Sunshine Part 2 because it was copied (thankfully not as a mono dub) onto an 8-track tape for Brian to overdub his H&V vocals in February. H&V verse remake wasn't completed, we're not just missing some takes. Brian called for a break after the rehearsals and that's as far as it went. After that he turned his attention to the 'intro'. Agree to disagree then, but I think you're vastly underestimating how quickly the guy could change his mind and operate on whims. Just look at Child is Father of the Man. I've heard that copy of the wonderful backing track. It's the one where Bruce goes: "-out; one, two, three". Sunshine 1 isn't gone, it's on the Unsurpassed Masters vol 16. The tricky thing about identifying that master is just because it has Dennis' overdubs, doesn't mean it's the final master. Dennis' lead vox were recorded over take 11, then later that recording was edited after The Old Master Painter section of take 14. That's the real master. I once attempted to restore it, but that file's lost. Thanks for clearing up that matter on the Verse remake of H&V. Can I know how you came to that conclusion? I want to be 100% sure. I totally understand and respect Brian's ability to work as fast as he did. I think I'm just being misunderstood here.
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Sept 5, 2019 17:58:38 GMT -5
Sunshine 1 isn't gone, it's on the Unsurpassed Masters vol 16. The tricky thing about identifying that master is just because it has Dennis' overdubs, doesn't mean it's the final master. Dennis' lead vox were recorded over take 11, then later that recording was edited after The Old Master Painter section of take 14. That's the real master. I once attempted to restore it, but that file's lost. Uhh... No. The master take is take 11. That was the final take of the session and the one Dennis's vocals were overdubbed to, later snipped off and added to a separate 4-track reel from which the mono mix was derived but is now missing. I don't know where you're getting 14 from. There's are a couple of earlier, quite similar complete takes on the session tape, but not the final one. There ain't a conclusion to come to RE: H&V verse remake, that's just all we have. Unless there were further takes that were erased or taped over but there's no evidence for that. Yeah I got myself straightened out now. When I talk about take 14 I'm meaning take 11. What confuses me is why the Smile Sessions uses an earlier take for the Old Master Painter part. The Old Master Painter - Take 11 or somethingI think assuming the remake Verse didn't happen is wrong. He called the break for a reason: to speed up the tape 3 semitones so he could establish the rhythm they needed to play at. Then he'd record the Verse in E and slow that recording down to C#. We're missing an entire different session. Unless there is clear evidence that he changed his mind and abandoned the idea, I think the only logical course is to assume he would have gone thru with what he had intended to do. I'm not convinced.
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zaval80
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Post by zaval80 on Sept 5, 2019 18:18:06 GMT -5
That's a weird idea that GV could be considered an opener. It's a perfect closer (to a vinyl LP side).
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Sept 5, 2019 18:39:12 GMT -5
That's a weird idea that GV could be considered an opener. It's a perfect closer (to a vinyl LP side). On the contrary, I think it's the only way it works. It's too distracting in any other position.
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Sept 5, 2019 18:44:47 GMT -5
There's no evidence on the session sheet or on the tape itself to indicate any more takes were attempted beyond what we've heard. Counterpoint, I think assuming something did happen when there's no material to support it makes... no sense. Wouldn't be the first idea he abandoned very quickly. I don't know how affecting tape speed worked in those days, but I'd imagine that in order to change the playback speed, you'd have to transfer it to another tape... one that would be missing in this case. The rehearsal is material evidence that it did happen, or at least was attempted. Btw, I'd rather it had been abandoned. It would make H&V slightly easier to understand.
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Sept 5, 2019 22:05:42 GMT -5
Occam's razor: Brian just changed the key of Prayer because it sounded better and some of the group (noticeably Carl) were struggling with it that low. The first version was also left unfinished. Musically that just doesn't make sense tho. And that's not Occam's Razor because those are more assumptions than I'm making. I simply think the key was changed because the song proceeding it changed. It wouldn't need to be transferred in order to speed it up to the key of E. I think there's some confirmation bias here on your part. If there is no evidence to suggest something exists, there's no reason to assume it exists. They recorded a rehearsal take in Db, he said they'd speed it up, and called for a break, then there was nothing else. Seeing as Brian repeatedly abandoned/cancelled sessions and reworked songs in 1967, I don't think there was anything else done for the verse remake (especially since he obviously had to change his mind at some point before recording the verse vocals). Yes, but how do you know that???
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Sept 6, 2019 8:33:09 GMT -5
Guessing Brian rewrote something to make it sound better is a bigger assumption than guessing he rewrote something to match the key of another song in an album sequence when he's never done that once throughout the entirety of his 5 decade career as a songwriter...? I don't get what you're going for here. Brian planned to do something with the new H&V verse, he didn't follow through with it. The recording doesn't exist. By that logic I could also assume that the knife and fork symphony was recorded just because Brian planned to do it at one time, or the Smile album was actually completed in 1967 but we're missing all of the master tapes. Salty, as a friend you need to listen to me on the 1st part here. To anyone who understands music, you will appear very dumb to suggest that an album intro’s key change doesn’t mean anything. You have to trust me on that. C#m to D#m is a big deal. The song proceeding it would have changed. Also, I don’t buy any stock in that stupid BS theory of “well he never did that before so why would he do that now?” I mean jesus christ, are we even aware of the concept of innovation and what it means? Bring that silly argument up with someone else. I get too many bruises from hitting my forehead. I’m focused on the music, not the philosophy of things. Our Prayer’s not a song, it’s an intro to a song, that doesn’t even appear on the track list. Which means it would’ve been included on that song’s track. The key’s have to match. This is so basic. I’m done debating this point. The silverware symphony kinda did happen. There were those dish washing sounds on the 2nd chorus of Vega-Tables. Smile btw was close to being completed. Brian and his friends have said this. The tapes were destroyed by Brian and others. I saw an interview with Marilyn recently where she said Brian told her to destroy them. That’s why we have no vocal tracks at all. So I’m just trying to figure out why just because there’s not tape, you assume it didn’t happen. I mean this is the mantra of smile for some people. It’s silly and unintelligent, considering what we know about the tapes.
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Post by Paul JB on Sept 6, 2019 8:49:33 GMT -5
That's a weird idea that GV could be considered an opener. It's a perfect closer (to a vinyl LP side). On the contrary, I think it's the only way it works. It's too distracting in any other position. Not only is it NOT a weird idea, the hit singles as an album opener and a side two opener were the norm. Even though Dumdangel said to try and keep the theories out of this thread....all I'm reading here are theories. It's impossible not to go there when discussing Smile. So with that said, Our Prayer leading into Good Vibrations as the album opener works like a charm, so much better than leading into Heroes as was done on BWPS and TSS. IMO Good Vibrations ending the thing is what was weird...almost as if the fact that GV was always saved for the encore in live shows through the ages, that it somehow meant it should be plopped at the end of Smile. We have Brian on tape stating Our Prayer is a little intro to the album...I would go with that and right into Good Vibrations.
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Post by filledeplage on Sept 6, 2019 9:56:02 GMT -5
Occam's razor: Brian just changed the key of Prayer because it sounded better and some of the group (noticeably Carl) were struggling with it that low. The first version was also left unfinished. Without getting into theories, transposing a key is just nuts and bolts to make things work for a particular population of voices. And I've always thought the I-I-I first three notes of GV were sort of operatic, and not inconsistent with Our Prayer or any other a cappella that they did, even up to Think About The Days.
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zaval80
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Post by zaval80 on Sept 6, 2019 16:48:56 GMT -5
On the contrary, I think it's the only way it works. It's too distracting in any other position. Not only is it NOT a weird idea, the hit singles as an album opener and a side two opener were the norm. Even though Dumdangel said to try and keep the theories out of this thread....all I'm reading here are theories. It's impossible not to go there when discussing Smile. So with that said, Our Prayer leading into Good Vibrations as the album opener works like a charm, so much better than leading into Heroes as was done on BWPS and TSS. IMO Good Vibrations ending the thing is what was weird...almost as if the fact that GV was always saved for the encore in live shows through the ages, that it somehow meant it should be plopped at the end of Smile. We have Brian on tape stating Our Prayer is a little intro to the album...I would go with that and right into Good Vibrations. You are right, GV can be a perfect opener for Side Two. What I've wanted to say, there is no need for Our Prayer to serve as the opener before GV, in the case we insist that OP must be an opener. Our Prayer works so much better in conjunction with H&V, bringing in contrast.
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zaval80
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Post by zaval80 on Sept 6, 2019 16:55:59 GMT -5
If Brian wanted Prayer to be an intro to Heroes and Villains when it was first attempted, why did he say "this is a little intro to the album" rather than "this is a little intro to Heroes and Villains" during the session? Important distinction. And if it were then intended to be part of Good Vibrations when it was re-recorded, why did he give it its own title - 'Prayer'? Why wasn't it 'Intro to Good Vibrations'? He wanted OP to be the first track on the album at that moment, just that - not an intro to any other song as such. And obviously he did not want any fixed situation, as the album track order is a demanding job in itself.
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Sept 6, 2019 19:47:18 GMT -5
You’re right guys. I’m just being crazy. I give up
At the end of the day, it will only be my smile mix. It will never be what I wish more than anything in the world it would be: Smile.
We’ll just never be able to hear it. I need to accept that.
Btw, I’m sorry I got so nasty with you guys. These conversations go over my head and end up just confusing me. You guys are a lot smarter than me.
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Post by jiggy22 on Sept 7, 2019 0:19:58 GMT -5
A big part in life is coming to accept the fact that some questions will never have answers.
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Post by Cam Mott on Sept 7, 2019 8:01:56 GMT -5
It takes a village. I look forward to you all's take on H&V.
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Post by filledeplage on Sept 7, 2019 8:15:18 GMT -5
A big part in life is coming to accept the fact that some questions will never have answers. 100%
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Sept 7, 2019 10:19:56 GMT -5
It takes a village. I look forward to you all's take on H&V. I agree, I just wish they'd listen to you. So far, it's unfortunately only going to be MY take on H&V. No one has messaged me and offered their help like I'd asked. They'd rather wait until I've done all the work and then critique it. A big part in life is coming to accept the fact that some questions will never have answers. I suppose, but don't you think that sounds like 'quitter talk'?
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Post by Cam Mott on Sept 7, 2019 10:47:30 GMT -5
I don't think that is the case here. I personally have had to learn to be more patient than I am usually.
Please don't quit. You are in good company here, most of us are holding some long held conviction. 90% percent of my posts over the years have ended in "we will just agree to disagree".
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2019 11:23:31 GMT -5
Well here we are, a little over 6 weeks away from the 8th anniversary of TSS, and there are still so many mysteries surrounding this masterpiece! I find that very intriguing. TSS raised as many questions as it answered.
After all these years (and decades) of fans speculating on how the thing would have gone together, you would think we would have run out of things to discuss a long time ago. NOT!
I, for one would like to see this thread continue and I'll entertain any theory no matter how farfetched it may seem. I might even get motivated and throw out a few of my own!
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Post by Mikie on Sept 7, 2019 11:30:32 GMT -5
A big part in life is coming to accept the fact that some questions will never have answers. Exactly.
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Post by filledeplage on Sept 7, 2019 12:12:36 GMT -5
It takes a village. I look forward to you all's take on H&V. I agree, I just wish they'd listen to you. So far, it's unfortunately only going to be MY take on H&V. No one has messaged me and offered their help like I'd asked. They'd rather wait until I've done all the work and then critique it. A big part in life is coming to accept the fact that some questions will never have answers. I suppose, but don't you think that sounds like 'quitter talk'? For me - that era is a very confusing one. And I think it was confusing for the band as well as fans. When I opened both tour books, and looked at them side by side, at whatever sessions were going on - the setting up of BRI, the arrest of Carl, the comings and goings of various creative players, the press narrative during the time when the band was in the UK, and the outright lies about tapes being "in a fire" or the project "shelved," it is a miracle that the band did not collapse entirely. These guys were in their 20's with everything that goes along with that age and in real-time back then. They still had demands from Capitol. The wonderful sessions show they were vocally "all in." As with any artist - you can't (as my contract professor used to say) "take a walk through someone's cranium." As consumers of the art we can interpret and it is conjecture as to what the artist intended. It reminds me of looking up at the millions of stars in the sky on a clear night. It will always be a mystery, how it came to be. But I think the key to understanding SMiLE - is to not try to dissect it to understand it - and not take someone else's impressions to adopt for your own. It just is what it is. Is it finished? Is it not finished because of perfectionism? I don't know and we might not ever know. My time is best spent with some really great headphones to hear as much of the nuanced instrumentation as I can process. I won't ever "quit" enjoying it. I liken it to those mysterious stars - some nights we can see them and some nights they are hiding behind the clouds...
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