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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2019 7:49:58 GMT -5
I have a question. Did they ever find that 7 minute version of H&V? What was so distinct about it?
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Post by catbirdman on Oct 11, 2019 8:38:20 GMT -5
I have a question. Did they ever find that 7 minute version of H&V? What was so distinct about it? I don't know but supposedly Bruce buried a version (tantalizingly potentially the one Mike referred to in a contemporary interview?) in a time capsule in Hawaii. It's doing the world a lot of good there of course. Anyone remember that?
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Post by Cam Mott on Oct 11, 2019 9:47:50 GMT -5
I wonder what building in Hawaii? (tests night vision goggles)
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Post by zebulan on Oct 11, 2019 9:50:59 GMT -5
I have a question. Did they ever find that 7 minute version of H&V? What was so distinct about it? I don't know but supposedly Bruce buried a version (tantalizingly potentially the one Mike referred to in a contemporary interview?) in a time capsule in Hawaii. It's doing the world a lot of good there of course. Anyone remember that? When will that time capsule be opened?
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Post by John Manning on Oct 11, 2019 16:11:20 GMT -5
I have a question. Did they ever find that 7 minute version of H&V? What was so distinct about it? I don't know but supposedly Bruce buried a version (tantalizingly potentially the one Mike referred to in a contemporary interview?) in a time capsule in Hawaii. It's doing the world a lot of good there of course. Anyone remember that? Always assumed that time capsule tale was a Brucie wind-up. Is there any evidence that it’s a true story?
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Post by AGD on Oct 15, 2019 14:38:53 GMT -5
He told me it was true. Mind, I'd hate to play poker with him...
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Post by Al S on Oct 16, 2019 1:42:09 GMT -5
He told me it was true. Mind, I'd hate to play poker with him... Well, if true, it’s probably getting pretty juicy in that capsule. Hope AB & ML + oven will be on hand at the opening to bake that cookie.
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Post by zebulan on Oct 17, 2019 18:59:28 GMT -5
Was reading a thread on another forum regarding H&V and saw this post, which contains some interesting speculation: smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,26748.msg654652.html#msg654652 I think that the idea of Do a Lot being tested as the H&V chorus/part 2/whatever is fairly plausible. Perhaps Brian was testing out both Do a Lot and Bicycle Rider at the same time to see which would work better as a H&V part 2? Actually, do we know for sure that Do a Lot and Part 1 Tag were recorded at the same session as Bridge to Indians and not just put on the same tape or something? I kind of doubt that Part 1 Tag, Do a Lot, Bridge to Indians, and Bicycle Rider were both in the same version of the song, since Verse Edit Experiment strongly implies a structure of Verse 1&2->Bridge to Indians->Bicycle Rider, which doesn't leave any room for Part 1 Tag to come after part 1. Part 1 Tag flows pretty well into Do a Lot, and it's the best place I can think of for Part 1 Tag to fit, considering Brian called it "PART 1 Tag" rather than "SIDE 1 Tag" or "Part 1 FADE". Lyrically, it shares the same fitness themes as the I'm in Great Shape section that it would be replacing. So that hypothetical structure would go Verse 1&2->Part 1 Tag->Do a Lot... and then what? Mission Pak seems like the best choice to connect to Children Were Raised, though Pickup to 3rd Verse could also work. Side note: the tape box note "Bridge to 3rd verses (or versions) (start with “My Children”)" along with the evidence in the previously linked forum post suggests that Children Were Raised was (at least at some point) considered a bridge to the 3rd verse, rather than a verse itself... or at least it was to the person making the notes. Three and Score and Five isn't really a full verse on its own (and neither is Children Were Raised). Another side note: was "stand or fall" originally written to replace the "three score and five" lyrics? Anyway, Children Were Raised would as usual connect to Three Score and Five, and that could then go to either: - Whistling Bridge->Sunshine fade - Acapella verse/bridge (with or without backing track e.g. UM17 track 14 from 1:27 onward, which if you listen closely picks up from the "heroes and villains" vocal of Three Score and Five, in contrast with the "Cantina" edit where it comes after Verse 2). After this could come Whistling Bridge->Barnshine fade. I don't think using Part 1 Tag a second time anywhere would make sense, and therefore Do a Lot couldn't be used a second time either. So to summarize, a theoretical early January H&V using Do a Lot might use the structure: Verse 1&2 Part 1 Tag Do a Lot Mission Pak (or Pickup to 3rd Verse) Children Were Raised Three Score and Five Whistling Bridge Sunshine fade or Verse 1&2 Part 1 Tag Do a Lot Mission Pak (or Pickup to 3rd Verse) Children Were Raised Three Score and Five acapella verse/bridge (probably with backing track since that works better in this context IMO) Whistling Bridge Sunshine fade I think both could fit within 3 minutes, especially if you have the Sunshine fade vocals come in sooner like they do in My Only Sunshine compared to the H&V "Cantina" edit. Actually, you could swap out Part 1 Tag->Do a Lot and use Bridge to Indians-Bicycle Rider instead and it would still work and be about the same length. Of course, this leaves out Bag of Tricks. If it wasn't just an experimental session and was actually intended as part of the song at this point, I would guess it probably would come after Do a Lot or Bicycle Rider, since the later "chimes" version is called "Part 3" on tape. Either could use Mission Pak to segue into Bag of Tricks or just cut directly to it, and then after Bag of Tricks could come Mission Pak (or Pickup to 3rd Verse if Mission Pak was already used earlier) to transition into Children Were Raised and so on (the acapella verse/bridge would probably not be included in this kind of cut due to the ~3 minute time limit).
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Post by WillJC on Oct 19, 2019 5:25:10 GMT -5
What's the lowest level of Smile depravity you can imagine? No, think deeper
Through some very close listening and process of elimination (with MATHS) I managed to work out what everyone's doing in Bag of Tricks. Yeah, really. Double and triple checked the results. I'm not proud.
In early takes, and the master first overdub:
Recorder - Bruce Train whistle - Dennis Siren whistle - Mike Duck call - Carl Handbell - Brian Rattle - Al Cabasa - Nick Pelico Güiro - unsure, but unless someone pulled double duty then likely one of the French horn players
Then a second overdub, which is harder to work out, but there are still some clues via talking during the take (Al and Brian can be ruled out of all of these, Carl from most too):
Whistling - probably Carl Glass bottle blowing - probably Mike Recorder - probably Bruce again Train whistle - probably Dennis again Kick drum - probably either Pelico or Dennis French horns - Alan Robinson and Claude Sherry (low drone similar to the one tried in early takes, it's very quiet)
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Post by zebulan on Oct 19, 2019 10:10:27 GMT -5
Well that's really cool, saltymarshmallow... I can't think of how it could be useful in anyway, but I guess it's a good thing that someone went ahead and figured it out so the rest of us never have to. Anyway, I'm double guessing my self again... Brian seemed to only use the term "tag" to refer to fades for other songs (e.g. the Wind Chimes tag). Part 1 Tag does work as a fade, and it could come after Do a Lot rather than before it in that case. Then the question becomes how do you get to Do a Lot from the rest of the song. If the Sunshine fade was not part of H&V at this point, then what else could work as a fade? Here's everything I can think of: - Part 1 Tag - DYLW Part 4 - Acapella bridge/verse with backing track When were the Sunshine vocals recorded? I've seen this saying they were recorded on Feb 10, but that date can't be accurate, can it? One of the mono mixes includes YAMS vocals that were mixed out of the "Cantina" version of H&V, so I wouldn't think that the mixed out vocals would have been recorded if Brian was already planning to include the section in H&V. Speaking of which, what's the best reference for session documentation concerning what was recorded and when? It has also occurred to me that Whistling Bridge may not have existed conceptually until the "Cantina" version of the song was being developed. Does anyone know when the "sunny down snuff" and/or "stand or fall" lyrics were written? The "Cantina" version lacks them, so if they were written prior to that then they must have been scrapped at the time.
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Post by zebulan on Oct 19, 2019 15:28:13 GMT -5
The original Sunshine vocals weren't partially mixed out, they were re-done from scratch. The original is a group vocal stack (apparently with Marilyn and Diane) while the vocals added for H&V were Brian alone, singing both harmony parts himself while the others were on tour. Oh, thanks for pointing that out. I guess now the question is what were the dates for both versions of the vocals. Also, I decided to play around and see what H&V might sound like using Bicycle Rider as a sort of chorus and also as a fade, and I came up with this: www.bitchute.com/video/ivDWttuEz5RS/I think the transition from Mission Pak to DYLW Part 4 is probably the most questionable part of the whole mix, but I thought it was still worth showing everyone else to see what they think. (More details in the video description.)
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Post by Cam Mott on Oct 19, 2019 15:33:32 GMT -5
Either way it blows down the myth that VDP being not available for new lyrics was a problem: either he was available for later lyrics or all the lyrics he was needed for were done when he was available.
Salty were the cantina and the alt. verse lyrics specifically included in the question or answer? Just curious.
Brian did say all 12 songs were finished by October ?? (can't look up the date right now). Also VDP has told me that all of his work was finished before he signed with WB.
Which brings up another point, I don't know if DAL was meant for H&V but we know it was actually part of post SMiLE Vt, which is long after VDP signed with WB, and Mike gets the credit, when actually released, for the Mama Says version on WH.
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Post by Cam Mott on Oct 19, 2019 15:52:51 GMT -5
I wonder why Brian credited it to Mike then? Also who wrote the alt Vt lyrics for April I wonder?
Someone should ask VDP what he remembers about this.
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Post by Cam Mott on Oct 19, 2019 16:00:24 GMT -5
I wonder why Brian credited it to Mike then? Also who wrote the alt Vt lyrics for April I wonder? Someone should ask VDP what he remembers about this. Same reason he didn't credit Van Dyke for Wonderful or Wind Chimes but slapped his name on She's Goin' Bald? Beach Boys album writing credits circa 1967 aren't the most reliable things to go off of. I'd be extremely surprised if they weren't Van Dyke, given that kartoffel pun. Good point but sometimes things are surprising. Edit: there is also a statement by VDP regarding V-T something like he did write lyrics for it but what might have happened to them later he didn't know. Something like that, I'll see how close I am when I get near my laptop.
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Post by Cam Mott on Oct 19, 2019 19:55:35 GMT -5
A phone search of the interwebs did find this on the subject posted by some clown who owned a laptop back in 2014:
"For what it is worth, from a long time ago according to Brad Elliott "Mama Says" songwriting credit was Brian 60% and Mike 40% which he claimed translated to Music 100% Brian and Mike 0% and Lyrics 20% Brian and 80% Mike. That seems to show that the "mama says/do a lot/poof" lyrics were a collaboration but written predominately by Mike. Either that or Brian [and Murry] suddenly turned extremely generous for one song.
For “Cabinessence” and “H&V” Brad claimed the credits read 50% each to Brian and Van which translates to Music Brian 100% and Lyrics VDP 100%. However “Vegetables” is credited to Brian 60% and Van 40%, which supports that Brian contributed to Van's lyrics on the released version. Mike doesn't seem to have been involved at all in the released version or was un-credited."
So the assigning of credit, if you got credit, was not some rote thing apparently.
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Post by Cam Mott on Oct 20, 2019 5:54:48 GMT -5
Found it.
Q: Were your lyrics to "Vegetables" (as heard on Smiley Smile) re-written by "others", they don't sound very you.
“Those lyrics don't sound very like me to me either. But I do remember providing them----in some form or another. In this case, like in others, I did contribute lyrics, but the outcome was beyond my control." VDP 1/9/99
The Smiley version doesn't include DAL/MS, so I don't know...
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Post by Cam Mott on Oct 20, 2019 8:14:21 GMT -5
All good points but Van Dyke and Mike ought to be asked specifically about it with all this confusion.
It is still odd that if Brian is right in his autobio he is blaming Mike for something that was Brian's responsibility as both the Producer and supposed co-Publisher.
January 67 isn't necessarily in the zone when only VDP would exclusively write or revise lyrics, he was already with Warners by then.
Mike has had the copyright for Mamma Says says since 1967. I believe the copyright iss was still in court during the GVBS but not sure why he didn't press his supposedly gifted authorship of MS on it, BWPS, or TSS.
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Post by Cam Mott on Oct 20, 2019 17:54:59 GMT -5
Emailed Van Dyke about the lyrics to Mama Says and the song being credited Wilson/Love, this is what he said: "There were many intentional omissions in writer credits. I have done my best to right them....with mixed results!" Settles it, lads. Settled. Well done.
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Post by craigslowinski on Oct 20, 2019 19:42:50 GMT -5
Although Van Dyke indicates the omission of his name from several songwriting credits was intentional, I kinda think that "Wonderful" (and "Wind Chimes"?) being credited solely to BW and "Mama Says" being credited to BW-ML was not so much intentional as it was a case of them being "default credited", if that makes sense...in other words, for whatever reason (and he believes it was intentional, so maybe it was), Van's name was left off, and the songs ended up being credited, by default, as the other "new" songs on the respective albums were ("Brian Wilson" for the Smiley songs, "Brian Wilson-Mike Love" for the Wild Honey songs). That might explain how Mike's name ended up on "Mama Says". And whether it was indeed intentional or merely an oversight, I tend to blame Murry, who had control of the credits through the publishing company. Sure, as producers, the BBs should have caught it and corrected, but... And yes, this doesn't explain the three-way credit on "She's Goin' Bald", but life ain't perfect, folks.
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Post by zebulan on Oct 20, 2019 20:32:48 GMT -5
Do a Lot and Vega-Tables are both in E and it was later used as a chorus for the April version, and the lyrics fit a lot better with Vega-Tables than they do with Heroes. I doubt this was just a coincidence that Brian noticed later. The backing tracks of both are also just piano and they have the same tempo and sound. Imo there's no world where Do a Lot was ever considered for Heroes. I just checked to see how well Do a Lot works with the "cornucopia" Vega-Tables and... yeah, I think you're right! So then the question becomes... how do you use Part 1 Tag in H&V? If "Part 1" refers to side 1, then obviously it would be the last section, but otherwise, it has to come after Verse 1&2. But it can't follow Verse 1&2 if Bridge to Indians follows Verse 1&2. Notably, the Verse Edit Experiment apparently comes from Jan 27, which is also when Cantina was recorded. But Cantina is called part 2 and it can't be part 2 if Bicycle Rider is already part 2 unless Bicycle Rider has been replaced by Cantina. So does this mean the Verse Edit Experiment had to have been made earlier than Jan 27? If it was made earlier, then perhaps hearing Verse Edit Experiment was what convinced Brian to come up with Cantina in the first place. Alternatively, what if Bridge to Indians was originally going to be used somewhere else in the song, e.g. after Three Score and Five or the acapella bridge/verse? If so, then you could have Part 1 Tag follow right after Verse 1&2, but still have Bridge to Indians in the song somewhere. Here's a structure I just came up with that might work: Verse 1&2 Part 1 Tag Mission Pak (you might be able to omit this and just go straight to Bicycle Rider) Bicycle Rider Pickup to 3rd Verse Children Were Raised Three Score and Five acapella bridge/verse Bridge to Indians Bicycle Rider (repeat the 2nd half that has the vocals to fade) Alternatively, if Part 1 Tag is the tag to the whole side, then here's a structure that uses it that way: Verse 1&2 Bridge to Indians Bicycle Rider Pickup to 3rd Verse Children Were Raised Three Score and Five acapella bridge/verse Mission Pak Part 1 Tag Notably, neither of these structures include the "so long to the city" or "stand or fall" lyrics. This brings me to another question... Were "so long to the city" and "stand or fall" originally part of the same verse, but split apart for Smiley Smile? I doubt the "la la la" part of the "stand or fall" verse was originally intended. If I'm right about that, then "stand or fall" would have to be either: - a replacement for Three Score and Five - the last words of the final verse If it's the latter, then I would assume that "so long to the city" is the first part of the verse. Just chop off the "by the Heroes and-" at the end and it fits; you've got a full 5th verse. Actually, something I haven't considered before is that the acapella bridge/verse was actually a replacement for the 5th verse. In the vintage mix where the acapella bridge/verse has a backing track, it comes right after the end of Three Score and Five. You could just sing the missing lyrics there and it should work just fine. Perhaps that's why those lyrics are absent from the safety copy "Cantina" mix: they had been replaced by the acapella verse.
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Post by Cam Mott on Oct 20, 2019 20:40:23 GMT -5
Craig, maybe so. Maybe I'm too easy on Murry but it seems to me Brian probably should shoulder considerable blame being the only co-author who was supposedly the publisher and the Producer.
Is "Mama says" unique to the MS version on WH?
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Oct 21, 2019 9:28:41 GMT -5
I've long suspected "so long to the city" and "stand or fall" could've been two halves of the same verse broken up in the final version. If you ignore the musical variations and lay them all out straight, those lyrics combined form a pretty cohesive ending to the ballad Van Dyke originally wanted to tell: When Bridge to Indians was recorded it seems like the plan was to end it on an F7 hum (making the weird key change into Bicycle Rider work) that they set aside on the master to maybe overdub later. The Jan 27 test edit doesn't have that though, so it's a natural transition to Cantina or any other H&V-key Part 2 section. 100% agree on that. The full story is that Van was pulled over by a cop on his Motor Bike for a reason I can't recall. He told the cop he was on the way to Brian's house (wasn't, but hoped Brian could pay for the ticket). The cop and Van went to Brian's house and Brian paid for the ticket and also told Van Dyke he'd buy him a new car. Then Brian showed Van Dyke Heroes and Villains on the piano, and that's when Van immediately improvised the first stanza. They wrote the rest of the Verses that day. That's not correct unfortunately. The hum they end Bridge to Indians with is not a chord but a single note, C in this instance. The note of C is not in the Gm7 chord of Bicycle Rider so you cannot transition from H&V to Bicycle Rider with Bridge to Indians. True they were going to just overdub the Hum onto the next section, and they did. If you listen to the background vocals for the DYLW verses, you'll hear them humming C, then Bb.
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Oct 21, 2019 9:39:54 GMT -5
That's not correct unfortunately. The hum they end Bridge to Indians with is not a chord but a single note, C in this instance. The note of C is not in the Gm7 chord of Bicycle Rider so you cannot transition from H&V to Bicycle Rider with Bridge to Indians. True they were going to just overdub the Hum onto the next section, and they did. If you listen to the background vocals for the DYLW verses, you'll hear them humming C, then Bb. Um, I dunno what you're listening to here but that's not a C. It's a four-part F7 harmony. You're absolutely right. It is a F7 chord. So you definitely cannot transition to Bicycle Rider with that.
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Oct 21, 2019 9:56:22 GMT -5
F7 into Gm totally works. The DYLW chorus is already F/C to Gm7/C. There seems to be a discrepancy here. This is what I think you're implying. vocaroo.com/i/s1czZIwTn4e8Is that correct?
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Post by zebulan on Oct 21, 2019 10:01:30 GMT -5
I literally just made an edit showing what Bridge to Indians to Bicycle Rider sounds like a few days ago, and it works well enough to my ears: www.bitchute.com/video/ivDWttuEz5RS/(I don't use an overlay either.)
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