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Post by Vale on Sept 12, 2019 4:25:37 GMT -5
Question about Heroes and Villains. I was wondering since the first two attempts or sessions to the song are missing...
MAY 11, 1966 - Heroes And Villains @ Gold Star [missing tape] OCT 17, 1966 - I'm In Great Shape (= Heroes And Villains) @ Columbia [missing tape]
...how different were these version respect to the october 20 session (or later versions)? OCT 20, 1966 - Heroes And Villains [verse & 'Barnyard'] @ Western
Anyone knows something about it? Maybe some historical memory has been told how it should have been (since the tapes are gone).
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Post by Cam Mott on Sept 12, 2019 6:46:49 GMT -5
Al Kooper heard a tape of H&V in May 1966 at Brian's house and described it as variations of You Are My Sunshine.
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ash
Grommet
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Post by ash on Sept 12, 2019 10:21:27 GMT -5
Cam (and everyone else busy smiling) , I've never been convinced that You Are My Sunshine was part of that original May 66 Heroes and Villains. The story of him coming up with YAMS as a piece for Smile seems to preclude that - the story where he says it doesn't have to be happy, presumably occurring around mid November ?? For my money (not very much I hasten to add), there are two musical connections - the so-called Barnshine which found it's way minus the YAMS vocal as a tag for the Cantina version in February 67. Secondly, the Bicycle Rider riff (G G Fsharp G D) / Heroes 45 chorus is sort of similar to the line My Only Sunshine which in the same key as Bicycle Rider would be G Fsharp G E E. Not the same but not dis-similar. In terms of what Al Cooper heard, this is the quote - "Then he blew me out completely by playing a track he was working on and singing along to it live. The song was “Good Vibrations,” ‘nuff said. He also played me a rough tape of “Heroes and Villains,” which had evolved, I believe, from a Wilson revamping of “You Are My Sunshine.” " No suggestion that YAMS was part of Heroes, simply that Al "believed" that's what it evolved from. Could it be that he did hear that first version of Heroes but this recollection is based on the eventually released 45 with it's Bicycle Rider / Heroes and Villains see what you done chorus which he believed evolved from a revamp of the tune YAMS hence the confusion ? I would argue that that theory is stronger than the theory that the May 66 Heroes had YAMS in it, especially in view of Al Kooper's actual quote. I would postulate that as far as the May 66 Heroes goes, we don't know what it consisted of at all other than (likely) the verse. It could have been anything. Didn't Brian record over the tape ? By end of October it consisted of something like - verse 1, verse 2 (once at night) ending somehow on a flutter tone, I'm In Great Shape, My children were raised, (then an accapella verse? my speculation), Barnyard as fade out. My reasoning for including the accapella verse is that it crops up in both finished versions but we know from the Humble Harv demo that in October, the second verse ended on a flutter tone and went into I'm In Great Shape IF Brian is playing it accurately. The IIGS acetate apparently features IIGS edited with My Children following it. The Barnshine / False Barnyard has the same chords as "real" Barnyard give or take a minor 7th. A flat to C sharp. I believe it was therefore almost certainly the fade. At the end of December 66, things start to get problematic but I'll stop at October 66 for now !
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Post by Mikie on Sept 12, 2019 10:49:13 GMT -5
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Post by Cam Mott on Sept 12, 2019 11:17:19 GMT -5
There is no suggestion that the May 1966 H&V was anything but "a revamping" of YAMS the way I read it.
There is also this:
CM: Was the version of Brian Wilson's "Heroes and Villains" you heard at
Brian's house in May '66 much different than the version that was released as
a 45 and on Smiley Smile or the Beach Boys' "Good Vibrations" boxset?
"yes-it was interpolated with "you are my sunshine." go figure.....
dont miss brians pet sounds summer show this year"
Al Kooper email 6/10/00
"JUST A BIZARRE ARRANGEMENT OF SUNSHINE" IT WAS ACTUALLY THE TRACK - THATS MY GUESS. ASK HIM - HE'S STILL ALIVE
HE MUST HAVE DECIDED LATER TO MAKE HIS OWN SONG OVER IT "
Al Kooper email 9/21/00
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ash
Grommet
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Post by ash on Sept 12, 2019 11:20:41 GMT -5
Fair points ! Those additional quotes are pretty definitive. Is it correct BW wiped that May 66 tape rather than it being missing ?
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Post by Cam Mott on Sept 12, 2019 11:44:16 GMT -5
The Three Musketeers (Slowinski, Boyd, Linett) will have to answer that. My memory is it was recorded over with skitty chat.
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Post by jiggy22 on Sept 12, 2019 15:49:40 GMT -5
The Three Musketeers (Slowinski, Boyd, Linett) will have to answer that. My memory is it was recorded over with skitty chat. You may be thinking of some of the master tapes to "The Little Girl I Once Knew", which were taped over by "Row Row Row Your Boat".
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Post by Cam Mott on Sept 12, 2019 18:41:41 GMT -5
The Three Musketeers (Slowinski, Boyd, Linett) will have to answer that. My memory is it was recorded over with skitty chat. You may be thinking of some of the master tapes to "The Little Girl I Once Knew", which were taped over by "Row Row Row Your Boat". Maybe, but my memory is the May 1966 H&V tape was said to have been recorded over with some sort of dialogue or skit. I contacted someone back in the day, maybe someone involved with the Watergate tapes, about the likelihood of recovering the original recording. I think they said it depended on a lot of things but maybe possible. Edit: we were informed by two sources that the tape now is just talking, an in-studio recorded conversation of some sort.
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Sept 16, 2019 11:18:33 GMT -5
Question about Heroes and Villains. I was wondering since the first two attempts or sessions to the song are missing... MAY 11, 1966 - Heroes And Villains @ Gold Star [missing tape]OCT 17, 1966 - I'm In Great Shape (= Heroes And Villains) @ Columbia [missing tape]...how different were these version respect to the october 20 session (or later versions)? OCT 20, 1966 - Heroes And Villains [verse & 'Barnyard'] @ Western
Anyone knows something about it? Maybe some historical memory has been told how it should have been (since the tapes are gone). The May 11th version was instrumentally very different. Like the Verse from Oct 20th, there were guitars, pianos, basses and drums. But unlike the Oct 20th verse, there were like 5 or 6 saxophones. I've made a home-made recreation of the May 11th session, and ultimately it's not too different really. The May 11th version is 2:45 in length, and that's about the same amount of time I got if I just added in The Old Master Painter after the H&V verses ended. Regarding the I'm In Great Shape session, that was most likely for Vega-Tables. Those tapes were heard back in the 80s, and they reported it just had 2 versions of the Sleep A Lot choruses. Either mislabeled or was an earlier title for an unknown suite at the time. Al Kooper heard a tape of H&V in May 1966 at Brian's house and described it as variations of You Are My Sunshine. Is he still alive? And if so, do you know a way I contact him? I'd like for him to hear my recreation of that tape. The IIGS acetate apparently features IIGS edited with My Children following it. I'm not sure about that still. The other acetates would "edit/cut" into another section, but obviously just as a collection of sections Brian put together at the time to listen to, not a sequence demo. That's what I inferred when I heard that guy talk about it. If there's a way to contact him or Mark Linett, or anyone who has heard the acetates, it would be great to know.
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Post by Cam Mott on Sept 16, 2019 11:38:56 GMT -5
I believe he is still alive and has a website with his email address on it, or at least he did have at some point between then and now.
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Sept 16, 2019 13:09:09 GMT -5
It's just as likely that Jay Migliori, Steve Douglas, Jim Horn and Bill Green could have been playing flutes, clarinets or other instruments at the May '66 H&V session. Steve Douglas often played piano too. Ohhhhh so that's not saying they played both, but could have played either or. Thanks!
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Post by craigslowinski on Sept 16, 2019 15:27:15 GMT -5
It's just as likely that Jay Migliori, Steve Douglas, Jim Horn and Bill Green could have been playing flutes, clarinets or other instruments at the May '66 H&V session. Steve Douglas often played piano too. Ohhhhh so that's not saying they played both, but could have played either or. Thanks! The AFM documentation lists Steve Douglas as session leader, but doesn't indicate instruments played by him. However, it DOES indicate instruments played by Jay Migliori (tenor sax, bass sax), Bill Green (tenor sax, clarinet), and Jim Horn (sax, flute - it doesn't say what kind of sax Mr. Horn played).
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Post by zebulan on Sept 16, 2019 16:22:57 GMT -5
Do you think Prelude to Fade was intended to be inserted after the whistling bridge? Or would it have replaced the whistling bridge and come after the three-score-and-five verse? Also, do you think it would have had more verse vocals, e.g. Lee Wall's piano demo (https://vimeo.com/302505343) where the following would be sung over the section? I've been in this town so long(so long) to the city(The number of syllables in the above section is the same as the first verse, so you could say both "so long"s, but alternatively you can just say it once and say it slower, which is what the piano performance in Lee's video implies.) I'm fit with the stuffto ride in the roughand sunny down snuff I'm alrightStand or fall I know there shall be peace in the valleyand it's all an affair of my lifewith the heroes and villainsIf it had verse vocals, maybe it would have even replaced everything between "you're under arrest" and the Sunshine fade? EDIT: Also, from endlessharmony.boards.net/post/14195/thread:Regarding Bike Rider going into Bag of Tricks, it's interesting to note that when DYLW was assembled, it's order was listed as such: Part 1,2, 4,5,6, etc. Part 3 was missing. There was supposed to be some sort of interlude between the 2 parts evidently. I highly doubt it would've played the way it does on the Smile Sessions (it's too long). Same with Cabin Essence, but that's another topic. Interesting, I'd never heard about the missing part 3. Do you have any ideas as to what each of the part numbers refer to? Also, why do you think TSS versions of DYLW and CE are too long, especially considering that apparently one of them is missing a section?
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Sept 17, 2019 8:20:15 GMT -5
Do you think Prelude to Fade was intended to be inserted after the whistling bridge? Or would it have replaced the whistling bridge and come after the three-score-and-five verse? No, because the whistle Bridge has the same flutter tone the French Horn in the Prelude has. Both play the H&V motif, and you can't play that twice on one side of the Single, that's just not proper songwriting. In the alternate Cantina mix, I doubt Prelude could come after CWR, because you'd need a transition piece to go from a Verse to... another Verse. Which will sound bad. If the Prelude is to be on side 1, it cannot come after a Verse. Regarding Bike Rider going into Bag of Tricks, it's interesting to note that when DYLW was assembled, it's order was listed as such: Part 1,2, 4,5,6, etc. Part 3 was missing. There was supposed to be some sort of interlude between the 2 parts evidently. I highly doubt it would've played the way it does on the Smile Sessions (it's too long). Same with Cabin Essence, but that's another topic. Interesting, I'd never heard about the missing part 3. Do you have any ideas as to what each of the part numbers refer to? Also, why do you think TSS versions of DYLW and CE are too long, especially considering that apparently one of them is missing a section? Part 1 is the Verse and Roll Plymouth Rock. Part 2 is Bicycle Rider. Part 4 is the 2nd Verse and Roll Plymouth Rock. Part 5 is the 2nd Bicycle Rider. Part 6 is the Hawaiian tag. And I forget the rest of it. I don't know also, if Cabin Essence is too long, but I saw Van Dyke say in an interview back in '69, that the way Cabin Essence is on 20/20 is not the way Brian and him envisioned it. And according to what Brian played for people at the dinner party that night, Van's right. The songs were mixed together.
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Post by zebulan on Sept 17, 2019 11:44:02 GMT -5
Do you think Prelude to Fade was intended to be inserted after the whistling bridge? Or would it have replaced the whistling bridge and come after the three-score-and-five verse? No, because the whistle Bridge has the same flutter tone the French Horn in the Prelude has. Both play the H&V motif, and you can't play that twice on one side of the Single, that's just not proper songwriting. In the alternate Cantina mix, I doubt Prelude could come after CWR, because you'd need a transition piece to go from a Verse to... another Verse. Which will sound bad. If the Prelude is to be on side 1, it cannot come after a Verse. You're definitely right about the repeated motif not being right. I've been using Prelude to Fade after the whistling bridge in my personal mix, but was never completely satisfied with it. I quickly tested what Prelude to Fade would sound like after Children Were Raised or three-score-and-five, but neither worked at all. Assuming Prelude to Fade was intended for the a-side (or assuming there was no H&V b-side), the most logical position for the section would be after "you're under arrest". I did a test mix and the structure verses->acapella verse/bridge->cantina->prelude to fade->sunshine fade has a running time of less than 3:15, or shorter if you use the short cantina and/or fade out quicker. Interesting, I'd never heard about the missing part 3. Do you have any ideas as to what each of the part numbers refer to? Also, why do you think TSS versions of DYLW and CE are too long, especially considering that apparently one of them is missing a section? Part 1 is the Verse and Roll Plymouth Rock. Part 2 is Bicycle Rider. Part 4 is the 2nd Verse and Roll Plymouth Rock. Part 5 is the 2nd Bicycle Rider. Part 6 is the Hawaiian tag. And I forget the rest of it. I don't know also, if Cabin Essence is too long, but I saw Van Dyke say in an interview back in '69, that the way Cabin Essence is on 20/20 is not the way Brian and him envisioned it. And according to what Brian played for people at the dinner party that night, Van's right. The songs were mixed together. I'm guessing the parts aren't necessarily labeled in the order that they would occur? So Part 5 is the one that TSS calls "Part 4"? So I just found and read the old intervew with Vosse from 1969: smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,17157.msg430386.html#msg430386 At the dinner party mentioned there, Cabin Essence only consisted of what acts as the verse in the 20/20 verse, AKA Home on the Range. At this time Brian was considering combining Who Ran the Iron Horse with Bicycle Rider. Also, Who Ran the Iron Horse already contained Grand Coulee Dam in its structure. But by December 1966 when the compilation reel was made, it seems like Bicycle Rider was part of Do You Like Worms. The structure DYLW has on the compilation reel is essentially the standard one, but ending with the ring-out of the first part of the 2nd Bicycle Rider, and no fade. The structure of Cabin Essence on that tape is Home on the Range->Who Ran the Iron Horse->Grand Coulee Dam (which fades out, but perhaps the final mix would have cut to the next section before it starts fading)->Who Ran the Iron Horse->Grand Coulee Dam (again fading out). So it has the same components as the 20/20 version, but in a different structure. Also, responding to endlessharmony.boards.net/post/14226/thread ... It definitely does work better than going straight to the chorus, but I had previously assumed that including the DYLW verse in H&V would make it too long... but thinking about it again, I guess it could actually work. And I must admit that the DYLW verse makes more sense in H&V than Do a Lot. So then I guess the question is what would come after the chorus? Children Were Raised? And then what? It depends on what kind of H&V this was meant for. If this was a single, than Part 2 of DYLW most likely would be on Side 2, and Part 1 of DYLW would be an interlude into H&V on Side 1. Personally I believe this was for the album. But as to what is meant to follow, I don't think anyone of us here will ever know. We can only guess. I'd if we had the session from December we would know, but we don't. If this was for just a single, then you're confined to what you can try. But if this was for Smile, than you have a lot more possibilities of what could follow. But in order to get back into H&V, you would start off with CWR. The 2nd Version of Love to Say Dada ends with the Pickup to 3rd verse, so I'd look into the Elements. Love to Say Dada isn't actually part of The Elements... is it? It started out as part of H&V, and then by the time it turned into a separate track, SMiLE was basically already dead, right? Good point about the 2nd version of Love to Say Dada ending with the same melody as Pickup to 3rd Verse. So what is the section (that breaks down) at the end of the first version of Love to Say Dada? It sounds very similar to this part of the 2nd version of Cool Cool Water: And it also sounds rather similar to the April version of Child Is Father of the Man. I made a test edit and was able to put all 3 together, and it actually worked surprisingly well. Wasn't Dada about a baby or something at some point? Perhaps at some point Love to Say Dada would have contained a reworked version of the CIFotM melody?
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Sept 17, 2019 17:04:56 GMT -5
Love to Say Dada isn't actually part of The Elements... is it? It started out as part of H&V, and then by the time it turned into a separate track, SMiLE was basically already dead, right? So what is the section (that breaks down) at the end of the first version of Love to Say Dada? And it also sounds rather similar to the April version of Child Is Father of the Man. I made a test edit and was able to put all 3 together, and it actually worked surprisingly well. Wasn't Dada about a baby or something at some point? Perhaps at some point Love to Say Dada would have contained a reworked version of the CIFotM melody? Love to Say Dada existed as far back as December '66. Then it was parodied in All Day for H&V. Then remade in May '67. I'm sure it's the final part of the Elements. I refer to that section as Rock With me Henry. It was first used in the early versions of Good Vibrations, then it became a Part of Wonderful. Then it landed on Love to Say Dada. That CFM for April was most likely just the bridge for the 3rd version of Wonderful. It's not a remake of CFM. Dada was about a Baby. I think it was about a Baby calling for his Dada in the middle of the night when a thunder storm awakens him (sound fx in the pauses). His Dada rushes to his side and Rocks him back to sleep (Rock With Me Henry), until the storm passes and the birds singing in the new morning air awaken him (2nd Day). That's why he loves to say Dada.
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Post by zebulan on Sept 17, 2019 19:00:18 GMT -5
Love to Say Dada isn't actually part of The Elements... is it? It started out as part of H&V, and then by the time it turned into a separate track, SMiLE was basically already dead, right? So what is the section (that breaks down) at the end of the first version of Love to Say Dada? And it also sounds rather similar to the April version of Child Is Father of the Man. I made a test edit and was able to put all 3 together, and it actually worked surprisingly well. Wasn't Dada about a baby or something at some point? Perhaps at some point Love to Say Dada would have contained a reworked version of the CIFotM melody? Love to Say Dada existed as far back as December '66. Then it was parodied in All Day for H&V. Then remade in May '67. I'm sure it's the final part of the Elements. I refer to that section as Rock With me Henry. It was first used in the early versions of Good Vibrations, then it became a Part of Wonderful. Then it landed on Love to Say Dada. That CFM for April was most likely just the bridge for the 3rd version of Wonderful. It's not a remake of CFM. Dada was about a Baby. I think it was about a Baby calling for his Dada in the middle of the night when a thunder storm awakens him (sound fx in the pauses). His Dada rushes to his side and Rocks him back to sleep (Rock With Me Henry), until the storm passes and the birds singing in the new morning air awaken him (2nd Day). That's why he loves to say Dada. Wait, is December when the taped strings and fender rhodes versions of Dada happened? I actually have no idea when those happened; I had assumed they took place after H&V All Day for some reason. You're probably right about the April CIFotM actually being part of Wonderful v3. I can't think of any other reason for that section to have been recorded. Also, interesting hypothesis about the subject matter of Love to Say Dada. I had assumed that 2nd Day was just a remake of the prior day's section, but I guess it's kind of unlikely that Brian would do a whole master take of Part 2, even having Dennis add a vocal overdub, only to somehow completely rework the whole thing the next day, and it's kind of weird to think that the person announcing the title on the tape (who is it?) would say "second day" instead of "revised version" or something like that. I guess 2nd Day is a separate section after all. So do you think Dada would have served as water, air, or both? Obviously the track turned into Cool Cool Water later on, but 2nd Day seems rather "airy". Also, what do you think of the idea that Vega-Tables starting out as part of The Elements but turning into its own track at some point?
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Sept 22, 2019 17:27:10 GMT -5
So do you think Dada would have served as water, air, or both? Obviously the track turned into Cool Cool Water later on, but 2nd Day seems rather "airy". Also, what do you think of the idea that Vega-Tables starting out as part of The Elements but turning into its own track at some point? I don't know. Love to Say Dada is one of the three songs left off of the tracklist in '66. The other 2 being I Ran and Holidays. I'm suspicious of any Smile mix that includes both Holidays and Love to Say Dada. They're essentially the same chords progression. I want to suspect that Love to Say Dada was a recreation of Holidays. For my take on the Elements, it starts with Fire, goes into I"m In Great Shape (I Wanna Be Around, Friday Night, IIGS, Barnyard) and fades out. That's the end of Side 1 of Smile. Side 2 starts with Vega-Tables. The end of Vega-tables fades away into the water chant, which would go into the water song. Which means Air must be the last piece. Love to Say Dada's song structure follows that pattern so I suspect it is indeed for the Elements. The problem being that LSD is long enough to be it's own song, so why was it not written down on the track list? And if Love to Say Dada fills out both the water and air sections, where does Wind Chimes go?
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Post by zebulan on Sept 22, 2019 20:19:02 GMT -5
Interesting, I never considered that Holidays and Dada might be related.
"The Elements: Fire" wasn't written on the handwritten tracklist, but "The Elements" was. Was that an error? Who's handwriting is it?
If "The Elements" on the tracklist was actually referring only to Fire, then that certainly opens the possibility for I'm in Great Shape and/or Love to Say Dada to be considered as part of The Elements.
But if "The Elements" on the tracklist means exactly what it says, then that would imply that I'm in Great Shape is not part of The Elements, but it leaves open the door for Love to Say Dada to be part of it.
In either case, I'm not sure if Vega-Tables was still part of The Elements at this point (actually, I'm not sure if it was ever part of The Elements), though if it was (presumably as the earth element), it would mean that I'm in Great Shape wasn't.
Personally, I don't think Wind Chimes is in any way related to The Elements.
There's also the point that SMiLE was supposed to have 12 tracks, and The Elements was considered one track. The tracklist has 12 tracks, so that would seem to imply that the only tracks that could part of The Elements are the ones not listed. So Love to Say Dada seems like the best candidate, assuming it existed prior to All Day. (Is there anything that confirms or implies that?)
In my SMiLE fan mix, I've been using Fire (short version)->LtSD Part 1->LtSD Part 2, with Love to Say Dada acting as water. At the end of Part 2 I keep the start of the breakdown section, then (almost) seamlessly fade into the Cool Cool Water version (which I've altered the pitch and tempo of). Up until recently, I had the track continue into what I think is a reprise of the main CCW section all the way to the closing chords of that piano performance, which seemed to work pretty well as the end of the track with Surf's Up following as the final track.
Following your idea, I recently cut right where the main CCW section would come in, and instead put LtSD 2nd Day, which worked quite well, actually. And the Pickup to 3rd Verse ending also seems to work pretty well coming right before Surf's Up.
I can't consider Vega-Tables or I'm in Great Shape as part of The Elements in my fan mix without reordering the tracks; they're both on side A while The Elements is on side B right before Surf's Up.
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Post by craigslowinski on Sept 23, 2019 11:34:09 GMT -5
The Elements is a single song on the tracklist. Nothing else on the tracklist is "part of" the Elements. A typo wouldn't have been printed on the back cover of the album. Except that the back cover image as we all know it was merely a "mock up", and therefore subject to change. The handwritten track list upon which that back cover track list is based - long assumed to be in Brian's handwriting - is now generally understood to be in Carl's hand writing, apparently thrown together and given to Capitol at their request (or demand), and very likely subject to change. Could "Vega-Tables" and "Wind Chimes" been considered part of an "Elements" suite, yet still be listed as separate titles on the back cover? I think the answer is "yes", if they were also being considered for potential single release (the intent being to ensure that the prospective consumer would know those singles were on the album if they were looking at the back cover, regardless of their being part of a larger suite). Do I necessarily believe, emphatically, that this was the case? No - as with everything SMiLE related, anyone's guess is as good as mine, and again - things were constantly changing.
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Post by filledeplage on Sept 23, 2019 12:28:51 GMT -5
The Elements is a single song on the tracklist. Nothing else on the tracklist is "part of" the Elements. A typo wouldn't have been printed on the back cover of the album. Except that the back cover image as we all know it was merely a "mock up", and therefore subject to change. The handwritten track list upon which that back cover track list is based - long assumed to be in Brian's handwriting - is now generally understood to be in Carl's hand writing, apparently thrown together and given to Capitol at their request (or demand), and very likely subject to change. Could "Vega-Tables" and "Wind Chimes" been considered part of an "Elements" suite, yet still be listed as separate titles on the back cover? I think the answer is "yes", if they were also being considered for potential single release (the intent being to ensure that the prospective consumer would know those singles were on the album if they were looking at the back cover, regardless of their being part of a larger suite). Do I necessarily believe, emphatically, that this was the case? No - as with everything SMiLE related, anyone's guess is as good as mine, and again - things were constantly changing.Ain't it the truth. When it first came out - I was a kid who believed just about everything in print. Now, I know better to question sources, biases, etc. and know a lot was propaganda or outright falsehood. Even Carl knew the tapes were not burned, and called it out.
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Post by zebulan on Sept 23, 2019 17:29:59 GMT -5
Yeah, the Vega-Tables demo is only about 1:28, which is pretty close to the length of the short version of Mrs. O'Leary's Cow (about 1:33). And speaking of which, Love to Say Dada Part 1 + Part 2 is also approximately a minute and a half long. The LtSD bridge + 2nd Day is also close to that length.
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Post by zebulan on Oct 10, 2019 13:10:13 GMT -5
Regarding Pickup to 3rd Verse, what exactly is considered a single verse? Would "I've been in this town so long that back..." and "Once at night..." be considered separate verses or a single verse?
It seems possible that Pickup to 3rd Verse could have been intended to lead into Prelude to Fade, which seems to have been intended as the backing track for the final verse(s) of the song before the Sunshine fade.
If you use Bicycle Rider as a chorus between verses, you can squeeze both Children Were Raised/Three-Score-and-Five and Prelude to Fade into a mix that lasts about as long as the Smiley Smile version, or shorter depending on how quickly you fade out and whether or not you keep the first part of the fade without any vocals. (In the original version of the Sunshine fade, the vocals start in sooner than in the modified H&V version used in the February safety copy mix.)
Were the "so long to the city" and "stand or fall" lyrics written before Smiley Smile? I've heard that all the H&V lyrics were written around the same time, so presumably at some point there was a version of the song that included both Children Were Raised/Three-Score-and-Five and "so long to the city"/"stand or fall", right?
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Post by Cam Mott on Oct 10, 2019 22:53:35 GMT -5
It seems to me TE was described late in the game as a suite of four parts that Brian was wrestling with, not a suite of four songs. Fire is slated as a part, Vosse said he understood his water recordings were going to be edited into a musique concrete melody of some sort, Brian said Air was an unfinished piano track, and a My Vega-Tables lyric or skit was involved sometime some how.
Just does not add up to a four song suite to my mind especially songs that are listed separately and in addition to the separate title The Elements. Probably the only reasonably certain thing is TE was never finished or fully conceptualized.
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