|
Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Oct 21, 2019 10:04:26 GMT -5
Are you implying it was this? vocaroo.com/i/s0ntdIV6kQFqEither way guys, Bridge to Indians works like this: vocaroo.com/i/s1YQEsbx772DIt doesn't go into Bicycle Rider, it goes into the Verse in Do You Like Worms. Plus, Bicycle Rider is about the White Man so naming it Bridge to Indians wouldn't make much sense. I literally just made an edit showing what Bridge to Indians to Bicycle Rider sounds like a few days ago, and it works well enough to my ears: www.bitchute.com/video/ivDWttuEz5RS/(I don't use an overlay either.) It's a nice edit sir, and it has the best intentions. But it's wrong.
|
|
|
Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Oct 21, 2019 10:26:42 GMT -5
Either way guys, Bridge to Indians works like this: vocaroo.com/i/s1YQEsbx772DIt doesn't go into Bicycle Rider, it goes into the Verse in Do You Like Worms. Plus, Bicycle Rider is about the White Man so naming it Bridge to Indians wouldn't make much sense. It can work like that, it can also work going into Bicycle Rider. I mean... unless you got that from a 1967 Brian test edit that we don't know about? Connecting Bicycle Rider, which has faux Native American chanting for backing vocals and lyrics addressing "the church of the American Indian", to a throwaway Bridge to Indians title is a stretch? It can, but it's not meant to. They say on the tape that F7 was to be an overdub. Which explains why it's missing from the master take. Also, I do not need evidence to figure out that 1+2 = 3. I get where you're coming from, but who is the chorus addressing? Why is it played on a European Harpsichord? The section's about the White Man for the White Man. I also don't understand this desire to remove Bicycle Rider from Do You Like Worms. The Verse and Plymouth Rock sections take just 30 extra seconds to listen to.
|
|
|
Post by craigslowinski on Oct 21, 2019 10:41:00 GMT -5
Is "Mama says" unique to the MS version on WH? Huh?
|
|
|
Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Oct 21, 2019 10:41:53 GMT -5
Also, I do not need evidence to figure out that 1+2 = 3. bruh Lol maybe I should've said Answers instead of Evidence. I think guys, you should stop waiting around for answers/evidence and start taking leaps of faith. You need to ask yourselves, "What makes the best possible mix without breaking the rules?" instead of throwing up road blocks because you don't have answers/evidence. Be brave, explore the unknown. Make mistakes but learn from them. I may come off as foolish sometimes, but that doesn't make me wrong. At the end of that, my H&V mix with Bike Rider sounds better, because I'm following the rules that were left behind, but I'm also improvising where we have gaps of knowledge. Remember what Hal Blaine used to say: If it feels good, it is good.
|
|
|
Post by zebulan on Oct 21, 2019 10:42:31 GMT -5
For the record, I'm pretty sure Mission Pak isn't actually supposed to transition to DYLW Part 4. I just got that idea while making my mix and decided to run with it to see how it sounded. Are you implying it was this? vocaroo.com/i/s0ntdIV6kQFqEither way guys, Bridge to Indians works like this: vocaroo.com/i/s1YQEsbx772DIt doesn't go into Bicycle Rider, it goes into the Verse in Do You Like Worms. Plus, Bicycle Rider is about the White Man so naming it Bridge to Indians wouldn't make much sense. It's a nice edit sir, and it has the best intentions. But it's wrong. Do you have any definitive proof that that edit is wrong? Or that yours is right? To me it's plausible that this version of H&V would've been the normal song with Bicycle Rider used as the chorus and vocal transitions to smooth the key changes. At least much more plausible than Brian just using the first two verses of Heroes and Villains and throwing away the rest to release all of Do You Like Worms as a single? Anyway, I don't see any evidence to definitively say that zebulan's edit is wrong. I think there's some confusion here. I don't think dumdangel is implying that the entire rest of the song would be DYLW, just that the DYLW verse would come between Bridge to Indians and Bicycle Rider in the H&V structure. You can still get back to the H&V verses via Pickup to 3rd Verse -> Children Were Raised after Bicycle Rider. If the F7 is supposed to be overdubbed as an overlay onto the next section, then I agree it doesn't work transitioning to Bicycle Rider, but works extremely well with the DYLW verse. I get where you're coming from, but who is the chorus addressing? This is actually a pretty good point. The Bicycle Rider chorus feels somewhat out of place lyrically. Including the DYLW verse does make it work better. I also don't understand this desire to remove Bicycle Rider from Do You Like Worms. The Verse and Plymouth Rock sections take just 30 extra seconds to listen to. To be fair, there are no vintage H&V edits known to exist that include the DYLW verse... right? The final version of the song also goes straight from the verses into a very modified Bicycle Rider. On the other hand, the lyrics of the Smiley chorus are changed such that the "to the church of the American Indian" lyric is gone, and "Bicycle rider" is changed to "Heroes and Villains", so the lyrics now don't seem so random.
|
|
|
Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Oct 21, 2019 11:14:47 GMT -5
Lol maybe I should've said Answers instead of Evidence. I think guys, you should stop waiting around for answers/evidence and start taking leaps of faith. You need to ask yourselves, "What makes the best possible mix without breaking the rules?" instead of throwing up road blocks because you don't have answers/evidence. Be brave, explore the unknown. Make mistakes but learn from them. I may come off as foolish sometimes, but that doesn't make me wrong. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to accomplish here or think others are trying to accomplish. The evidence is the discussion, we're not brainstorming fanmix ideas. That's... fine? But again, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You do know what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm trying to make the best mix possible. The evidence is not the discussion because you said that going from H&V to Bicycle Rider is possible with Bridge to Indians. There's not evidence for this. The F7 chord was not attempted in the master take because it was going to be overdubbed onto the "Indians" section. They say this on tape, that's evidence. So we know now we cannot use a mix that you were suggesting. I'm proposing that the only section that could be related to Bicycle Rider and have a hummed F7 chords over it is the Verse to DYLW. Yes, I have no evidence to prove that this is the case, but it's the best I've got. And quite frankly, I think it's the best we've got. We are now brainstorming ideas, and there's nothing wrong with that. This is the Sandbox, and the first rule to the Sandbox is: "there's not rules to this". This does have everything to do with the topic at hand, because you were proposing a fanmix idea yourself. All I'm doing is trying to share with you my idea for the same sequence. I think it's better and we could all profit by it.
|
|
|
Post by zebulan on Oct 21, 2019 11:34:47 GMT -5
Also, what they're actually discussing on the session tape is overdubbing the final chord onto the 8-track for the a capella section itself, eliminating the need to take another breath at the end which is throwing everyone off their notes. This evidently never occurred and we don't have any more information beyond that. Context is important. That's what I thought they were doing as well... but if that's what they were going to do... why didn't they do it? It can't be that hard to overdub a single chord at the end of a tape you're already working on, can it? To me it suggests a possibility that they wanted to overdub it on something else that wasn't at the ready. If using DYLW verse after Bridge to Indians works so well, then that might be a sign that it was actually intended to work that way. I mean, we don't have any mixes of Bridge to Indians going into the DYLW verse... but we also don't have any mixes of it going into Bicycle Rider either. So, considering: - lyrically Bridge to Indians -> DYLW verse -> Bicycle Rider makes more lyrical sense - the point when we know the H&V verse does go straight to BR is also at the point where the lyrics have been changed - the F7 was left off for an overdub, was oddly never overdubbed during the Bridge to Indians session, and doesn't work as a BR overdub but definitely works as a DYLW verse overdub I think there's actually some considerable evidence that Bridge to Indians really was intended to go into the DYLW verse. It's definitely not a smoking gun, but it's definitely plausible in my opinion, and if Brian was already taking the chorus from DYLW, it's not that far of a stretch to say he initially took the verse as well. Side note: have any of you ever been jumpscared by Bicycle Rider? I was working on a new H&V mix just now and I forgot to mute the second half of the Bicycle Rider chorus, so while I'm listening to the DYLW verse, all of the sudden at full blast I hear "BIIIIICYCLE RIIIIIDER!!!!1!!" and it freaked me out.
|
|
|
Post by Cam Mott on Oct 21, 2019 11:59:23 GMT -5
Is "Mama says" unique to the MS version on WH? Huh? I'll have to send you a Camlish to English dictionary to decipher my old man ramblings. Take 2: Isn't Wild Honey's "Mama Says" the only version of DAL/MS that includes the words "mama says"? Or am I also forgetting something?
|
|
|
Post by zebulan on Oct 21, 2019 11:59:53 GMT -5
Also, why call the section "Bridge to Indians" when Bicycle Rider already has a much more obvious name that everyone seemed to be using: Bicycle Rider. Why not call it "Bridge to Bike Rider", "Bridge to Rider", or "Bridge to Bicycle"? The DYLW verse, on the other hand, has no obvious name of its own. But it does have the "beaded cheering indians" lyric, though, doesn't it? (Or was that verse written for BWPS? I know the "sandwich isles" lyric is vintage, but I'm not sure about the other one.)
|
|
|
Post by zebulan on Oct 21, 2019 12:01:55 GMT -5
I'll have to send you a Camlish to English dictionary to decipher my old man ramblings. Take 2: Isn't Wild Honey's "Mama Says" the only version of DAL/MS that includes the words "mama says"? Or am I also forgetting something? I'm pretty sure I hear someone saying "mom and daddy says" right before the Do a Lot chorus kicks in during the April Vega-Tables.
|
|
|
Post by zebulan on Oct 21, 2019 12:59:30 GMT -5
I agree that it's plausible! Just not necessarily the answer, so we're on the same page there. Musically it's compatible but IMO the direct evidence on tape stacks against it - there are those mix fragments from late January / early February where the H&V verse is spliced directly into Bicycle Rider, so it's the same immediate 'Part 2' placement idea but just skipping a transition piece. Brian also had a perfectly good 8-track edit where the DYLW verse is spliced into Bicycle Rider that he didn't touch. Instead he created a copy of the BR fragment individually, added more vocals, mixed it down to mono with an awkward splice mid-way through the theme, and then used that as a foundation to triple his vocals and overdub the fuzz bass part. It pretty much sabotages any path to a smooth edit from the Worms verse in the original format. Are you referring to Unsurpassed Masters Vol. 17 disc 1 tracks 14, 15, and 16? I had assumed the sudden blips of BR were some kind of mistake. But now that you point out the BR overdubs starting the Bicycle Rider backing track at the exact same point... woah. So... how are you supposed to transition into Bicycle Rider when it starts like that? Was Brian going to cut the section even shorter later after the overdubs, and have it start where the vocals come in? Inserting the DYLW verse before it might still work in that case, but I haven't tested that. Also, are those 3 tracks the Jan 27 test mixes that Soniclovenoize is referring to in his Behind the SMiLE essay? That last one seems to be the one used at the start of TSS disc 4 track 24 "Heroes and Villains: Early Version Outtake Sessions". I guess that confirms that particular test mix didn't originally have the acapella verse with backing track at the end. It looks like the end of the UM17 disc 1 track 14 mix was edited into the end of the disc 16 mix for TSS track.
|
|
|
Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Oct 21, 2019 13:42:40 GMT -5
Lol my Heroes and Villains thread is going to be so bad... 😬
|
|
|
Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Oct 21, 2019 15:27:53 GMT -5
It is. But I'm 100% on board that he had just edited them together hastily to get the vocals done, then would properly edit them all together later, as he had begun to do with the Verse edit experiment. This might have been for the album... Might not have been for a single release. This mix is too complex for a single; a song within a song
|
|
|
Post by Cam Mott on Oct 21, 2019 21:52:31 GMT -5
I'll have to send you a Camlish to English dictionary to decipher my old man ramblings. Take 2: Isn't Wild Honey's "Mama Says" the only version of DAL/MS that includes the words "mama says"? Or am I also forgetting something? 'Mama says' isn't a lyric within Mama Says, just the title. The only new things there are "poof" and swapping the order of "sleep a lot" and "eat a lot". I gotta quit posting from memory.
|
|
|
Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Oct 22, 2019 14:24:03 GMT -5
It is. But I'm 100% on board that he had just edited them together hastily to get the vocals done, then would properly edit them all together later, as he had begun to do with the Verse edit experiment. This might have been for the album... Might not have been for a single release. This mix is too complex for a single; a song within a song Isn't that exactly what he did in the single though? Just with Bicycle Rider rerecorded in the correct key and with slightly different lyrics. No sir, I don't think they're the same. The Piano Theme is just another section (a chorus pulled from another song). The Bridge to Indians mix contains a verse of H&V, then a Verse of another song.
|
|
|
Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Oct 22, 2019 19:10:43 GMT -5
No sir, I don't think they're the same. The Piano Theme is just another section (a chorus pulled from another song). The Bridge to Indians mix contains a verse of H&V, then a Verse of another song. I was saying that the mix Salty posted isn't that different from the single mix besides the bicycle rider chorus being re-recorded in the same key as the rest of the song and a cleaner edit/transition. What is this Bridge to Indians mix? What? I was using that to refer to a mix that goes "Verse-Bridge to Indians-Do You Like Worms".
|
|
|
Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Oct 23, 2019 14:51:16 GMT -5
I was using that to refer to a mix that goes "Verse-Bridge to Indians-Do You Like Worms". Well then, that’s not quite what I was talking about, but I agree that Brian wouldnt ever do that. I was referring to how Verse-Bicycle Rider is exactly the same as what happened in the final single, just with bicycle rider re-recorded in a different key with different lyrics. Absolutely, just musically a mess. The "Bridge to Indians" mix most likely proceeded the sequence you're referring to. Btw everyone, I've come up with a great idea for Smile! I was working on the section for H&V known as All Day, and it occurred to me how the section most likely worked. On the tape we hear Brian working on a Verse section, and then the familiar "All Day" chant from Smiley Smile (only in the key of C#). Here's how I believe these two sections work together: Verse-All Day Chant-Verse-Pickup to 3rd Verse. I think the reason why we don't have a take of Brian playing the All Day chant on the piano is because it would've been a vocal section only, maybe with a bass piano overdubbed later. I will reveal how this sounds in Version 3 of Heroes and Villains of my H&V thread coming soon. I think this section is a version of Love to Say Dada that was shrunken down to play as a section in Heroes and Villains. Was this because Love to Say Dada was decided not to be used on the album? So in the early versions of Dada, I propose that a vocals only chant of All Day would serve as the bridge between Part 2+2nd Day. Then in May of '67, the Rock With Me Henry section replaced it as the bridge?
|
|
|
Post by zebulan on Oct 23, 2019 18:49:17 GMT -5
Are you referring to Unsurpassed Masters Vol. 17 disc 1 tracks 14, 15, and 16? I had assumed the sudden blips of BR were some kind of mistake. But now that you point out the BR overdubs starting the Bicycle Rider backing track at the exact same point... woah. *snip* Also, are those 3 tracks the Jan 27 test mixes that Soniclovenoize is referring to in his Behind the SMiLE essay? Yeah, those tracks are the ones talked about in the essay. I haven't seen anything definitively dating them though, the edit experiment with Bridge to Indians was explicitly dated Jan 27 but the different lead vocal takes in the others (edit experiment, UM mix attempt 1, and UM mix attempts 2 & 3 each have a different Brian and Mike pass) suggest they come from more than one session. Verse Edit Experiment was dated Jan 27? Is that just the latest possible date or could it have been made earlier? Jan 27 is the date when Cantina was recorded... was Verse Edit Experiment actually made for the Cantina version of the song? I guess in that case Bridge to Indians must have been repurposed as a transition to Cantina. Also, it should be noted that UM17 disc 1 track 14 seems to have the same vocal takes for Verse 1&2 as Verse Edit Experiment. Tracks 15 and 16 share a different vocal take. I infer that means that one pair of mixes predates the other pair, though I'm not sure which. Btw everyone, I've come up with a great idea for Smile! I was working on the section for H&V known as All Day, and it occurred to me how the section most likely worked. On the tape we hear Brian working on a Verse section, and then the familiar "All Day" chant from Smiley Smile (only in the key of C#). Here's how I believe these two sections work together: Verse-All Day Chant-Verse-Pickup to 3rd Verse. I think the reason why we don't have a take of Brian playing the All Day chant on the piano is because it would've been a vocal section only, maybe with a bass piano overdubbed later. I will reveal how this sounds in Version 3 of Heroes and Villains of my H&V thread coming soon. I think this section is a version of Love to Say Dada that was shrunken down to play as a section in Heroes and Villains. Was this because Love to Say Dada was decided not to be used on the album? So in the early versions of Dada, I propose that a vocals only chant of All Day would serve as the bridge between Part 2+2nd Day. Then in May of '67, the Rock With Me Henry section replaced it as the bridge? That sounds interesting; I'm looking forward to it! I wondered whether "All Day" was related to "Whistle In", considering the latter prominently uses the phrase "all day" in its lyrics. Also, the Sunshine Tomorrow copyright extension release includes an earlier version of "Whistle In", where Brian refers to it on tape as "All Day and All Through the Night" and the track title is "All Day All Night (Whistle In) (Alternate Version 1)".
|
|
|
Post by zebulan on Oct 24, 2019 9:47:50 GMT -5
I checked again and it seems you're right! Wow, there are a surprising number of lead vocal takes that have survived for the first two verses of H&V:
- the version heard on Vigotone 110 track 23 (seems to be the same as the one on Heroes and Villains Sessions Vol. 2 track 10 "Verse (acetate)"; seems to be just Brian on lead, but I'm not completely sure) - Jan 27 Verse Edit Experiment (Brian/Mike) - UM17 disc 1 track 14 (Brian/Mike) - UM17 disc 1 tracks 15 & 16 (Brian/Mike) - Feb 10 mix (Brian) - Smiley Smile (Brian)
Are there any other takes I'm forgetting?
|
|
|
Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Oct 24, 2019 11:18:18 GMT -5
I think what Brian was trying to accomplish with his lead vocal with Mike was similar to what he ended up doing with Cantina. Both of them share the vocals on that section, and they blend very seamlessly together. Brian always emphasized how low the melody got in Heroes and Villains, so he probably wanted to begin with himself and end with Mike hitting the low notes. Plus it helps because in the Prelude section they most likely would've had vocal overlap like they in Cantina when they sing "Dance" at the same time.
So which came first: the Verse Edit experiment, or the other Brian/Mike lead mixes?
|
|
|
Post by zebulan on Oct 24, 2019 13:07:10 GMT -5
I checked again and it seems you're right! Wow, there are a surprising number of lead vocal takes that have survived for the first two verses of H&V: - the version heard on Vigotone 110 track 23 (seems to be the same as the one on Heroes and Villains Sessions Vol. 2 track 10 "Verse (acetate)"; seems to be just Brian on lead, but I'm not completely sure) - Jan 27 Verse Edit Experiment (Brian/Mike) - UM17 disc 1 track 14 (Brian/Mike) - UM17 disc 1 tracks 15 & 16 (Brian/Mike) - Feb 10 mix (Brian) - Smiley Smile (Brian) Are there any other takes I'm forgetting? That's it! I cut together a montage with all 6 recently, lol. It's what my brain sounds like reading this thread. drive.google.com/file/d/1SxWqYOsmzQv8ewKe9RlS8Uwm8YmYsgRv/view?usp=sharingWow, that's actually really fun to listen to. If it's not asking too much, could you make a version that doesn't end in the Smiley vocal transition, but instead allows you to play the track on repeat with a seamless loop back to the start?
|
|
|
Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Oct 24, 2019 15:31:04 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Nov 1, 2019 14:32:00 GMT -5
This is my fan-mix of the Smile track/song "I'm In Great Shape", aka the Barnyard Suite. This will be included in my "Condensed Smile Sessions" album. Two versions included below: Just the backing track: I'm In Great Shape - InstrumentalAnd with a melody line over it (improvised on Friday Night): I'm In Great Shape - with MelodyI think I'm going to add one more stanza to Friday Night. It sounds too short.
|
|
|
Post by zebulan on Nov 4, 2019 15:33:48 GMT -5
Nice! What's that melody line at the end of Barnyard? Is that improvisation or is it based on something vintage? I like it either way. I agree that Friday Night should last a little longer. Here's my attempt at the track that I made after seeing your I'm in Great Shape thread from a little while back: www.bitchute.com/video/rdIE1MR1N86e/
|
|
|
Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Nov 4, 2019 19:05:28 GMT -5
Nice! What's that melody line at the end of Barnyard? Is that improvisation or is it based on something vintage? I like it either way. I agree that Friday Night should last a little longer. Here's my attempt at the track that I made after seeing your I'm in Great Shape thread from a little while back: www.bitchute.com/video/rdIE1MR1N86e/Thanks! That melody line is the "Barnyard Billy loves his chickens" line Brian sang in the documentary, "I Just Wasn't Made for these Times". Nice mix btw! Definitely right on with what you were going for. I think this structure is the best structure one can come up with for this song.
|
|