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Post by filledeplage on Feb 22, 2019 10:13:38 GMT -5
I think when you're discussing The Beach Boys' legacy, you have to be somewhat specific. Using a sports analogy, there are on-court issues and off-court issues, or on-field issues and off-field issues.
The on-court issues with The Beach Boys would relate to their musical legacy. I agree that it's pretty hard if not impossible to tarnish that legacy. The music from the 1960's and 1970's has cemented that musical legacy, and any subpar or cheesy recordings from subsequent decades isn't going to affect it. Those...maybe embarrassing releases...will be dismissed and mostly forgotten.
The off-court issues with The Beach Boys would have to do with their conduct, relationships, and things that are outside the musical scope. Parental abuse, drug and alcohol abuse, mental illness, lawsuits, separations, firings, financial disputes, and just overall inter-group turmoil would fall into that legacy. Now, that legacy is somewhat more ongoing than the musical legacy and is still subject to change or to be added to. Things like the C50 ending controversy, Brian blaming Mike for the collapse of SMiLE in documentaries, autobiographies/books that continue to be written, negative comments from Mike in interviews, and just the fact that Mike and Brian have separate careers add to that part of The Beach Boys' legacy. And that's the sad part of the story. While the musical legacy of The Beach Boys will be overwhelming positive and full of good feelings and joy, the other legacy, the personal side if you will, will unfortunately be dominated with sad, tragic, and negative stories. And I'm not sure there won't be more.
If only the crap if focused on - you miss the beauty of the work. The rest is just drama. If Brian leaves some heavy lifting to other members, who cares? He is still subtly micromanaging - if one looks closely enough. He is sharp as a tack and if physical passivity is taken for mental acuity, then it is a big mistake. Only a fool and poor observer looks just at physicality. He misses nothing. Brian is like that kid staring out the window in class - and when you call on them - they have the answer because they are operating on more than one circuit. Mentally multi-tasking. "Smart" has many faces. There is no time machine to put the band into, to make them all 20 again and remove all their challenges. I'd have it no other way.
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Post by catbirdman on Feb 22, 2019 10:29:26 GMT -5
I don't have any info one way or another, thus I'm not making any such statements that I can't then back up. Surely you aren't saying I am making a statement that I can't back up? I think the point is that the way you stated it in your post, it read like it was verifiable. It very well could be true, but it is not a proven fact that this is how Mike feels. You wrote: "The only problem with that is that Mike doesn't want to do a reunion, and Brian probably doesn't either. " All you had to do was add two little words: "The only problem with that is that Mike doesn't seem to want to do a reunion, and Brian probably doesn't either. " You say it's just semantics, and in most cases like this I'd agree. But not on this topic; as we know, there is so much loaded animosity, us vs. them, and confirmation bias insanity baked into the Brian vs. Mike nonsense. It's a small point, but it does matter. When you're dealing with impassioned sides who are just looking for further reasons to hate and bait, it is worth it to use caution and measured language. IMO.
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Post by ian on Feb 22, 2019 14:40:35 GMT -5
Talking about the legacy issue-I agree that the BBs did such good work in the 60s and 70s that no amount of pratfalls since then can take that away. I do, however, think that perception of them by non-rabid fans took a big hit. The BBs I think are perceived by most of the public as primarily an oldies act and of no significance to anything important in music post 1980 or so. For whatever reason I don’t think Bob Dylan, Neil Young or Paul McCartney (at least till recently) were perceived the same way-even though they often perform many old songs in their sets. In essence-I am arguing that for whatever reason Neil Young-as one example-has continued to be taken seriously as an artist in a way that the BBs no longer are and haven’t been in many years. In that sense their missteps in the 1980s and 90s hurt their credibility. But there is no doubt that when all is said and done-they will be remembered as one of the most important rock/pop bands ever
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Post by The Cap'n on Feb 22, 2019 14:50:45 GMT -5
I actually think the band is taken more seriously artistically than they've been in my lifetime (b. 1976), and without question more than ever in my conscious, music-listening lifetime. The boxes, Brian's return and BWPS, and the various boxes and deluxe releases have really shone a light on their quality and I think put the embarrassing points into perspective.
Part of that might be that the younger generation just doesn't know about or remember the '80s and early '90s stuff.
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Post by Paul JB on Feb 22, 2019 15:23:21 GMT -5
If Brian remains in his current state as far as live performances go, and I don't see anything possibly changing for the better as the trajectory has been downhill for a number of years, then I hope a reunion tour is off the table. Fast forward the Linda Ronstadt clip below to 3:55.....When you can no longer perform, the right thing to do is to stop performing. We had the C50 not too long ago and many of us have great memories of that. It sucks to get old and it sucks that all things eventually come to an end but it is the way of the world we live in. Brian being literally carted/helped/lifted onto the stage and sitting there as a bystander at his own shows of late is wrong on so many levels. I get why people still wish and hope but come on already....if the Christmas shows did not make things clear that Brian should no longer be touring then I don't know what would.
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B.E.
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Post by B.E. on Feb 22, 2019 15:29:55 GMT -5
Talking about the legacy issue-I agree that the BBs did such good work in the 60s and 70s that no amount of pratfalls since then can take that away. I do, however, think that perception of them by non-rabid fans took a big hit. The BBs I think are perceived by most of the public as primarily an oldies act and of no significance to anything important in music post 1980 or so. For whatever reason I don’t think Bob Dylan, Neil Young or Paul McCartney (at least till recently) were perceived the same way-even though they often perform many old songs in their sets. In essence-I am arguing that for whatever reason Neil Young-as one example-has continued to be taken seriously as an artist in a way that the BBs no longer are and haven’t been in many years. In that sense their missteps in the 1980s and 90s hurt their credibility. But there is no doubt that when all is said and done-they will be remembered as one of the most important rock/pop bands ever There are other factors, but I think a lot of it simply has to do with productivity. How many albums has Neil Young released since 1980? 30-something? It's kind of hard to call an artist like that an oldies act. Perhaps if Paul McCartney and Bob Dylan had only released a few albums in the past 40 years, there'd be a similar perception.
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Post by The Cap'n on Feb 22, 2019 15:38:52 GMT -5
Who are these people who don't consider ALL of those artists to be oldies or legacy acts? Is there anyone under, say, 40 or 50 who considers Paul McCartney, Bob Dylan, or even Neil Young a contemporary artist but the Beach Boys a legacy act?
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B.E.
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Post by B.E. on Feb 22, 2019 16:20:51 GMT -5
Who are these people who don't consider ALL of those artists to be oldies or legacy acts? Is there anyone under, say, 40 or 50 who considers Paul McCartney, Bob Dylan, or even Neil Young a contemporary artist but the Beach Boys a legacy act? The Beach Boys, as a group, aren't active recording artists. I think that's a legitimate distinction. How can the Beach Boys, as ian said, continue to be taken as seriously as artists, if they are no longer creating? I may be wrong/misguided, but I never thought "oldies" and "legacy" acts were exactly the same thing. "Oldies" has a more inactive, late 50s-mid 60s confined vibe. If I'm wrong about that, fine, at least you'll understand better where I'm coming from.
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Post by ian on Feb 22, 2019 16:45:42 GMT -5
That is what I am saying legacy artist is not the same as oldies-yes people who listen to Taylor Swift or Kanye or Kendrick Lamar may consider them all dinosaurs-but let's be real-Bob Dylan put out a series of records in the 90s and 2000s that got tons of critical plaudits and sold some decent copies-he restored his artistic cred-after a downturn in the late 80s-early 90s. During that same time period-BBs put out many releases of older material-that showed how great they were in the 60s and 70s but nothing that really demonstrated they were still relevant (I am leaving Brian solo-out of this discussion-certainly BW presents Smile and Lucky Old Sun were important in giving him some late career credibility)
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 22, 2019 16:45:46 GMT -5
Who are these people who don't consider ALL of those artists to be oldies or legacy acts? Is there anyone under, say, 40 or 50 who considers Paul McCartney, Bob Dylan, or even Neil Young a contemporary artist but the Beach Boys a legacy act? The Beach Boys, as a group, aren't active recording artists. I think that's a legitimate distinction. How can the Beach Boys, as ian said, continue to be taken as seriously as artists, if they are no longer creating? I may be wrong/misguided, but I never thought "oldies" and "legacy" acts were exactly the same thing. "Oldies" has a more inactive, late 50s-mid 60s confined vibe. If I'm wrong about that, fine, at least you'll understand better where I'm coming from. Almost all of them have been recording solo work. And they continue to perform. Their followers reach back to the beginning, so not contemporary if that is the context but I’d call them career musicians and performers. Many bands were one hit wonders or who had short careers and gave up easily as music shifted. If you are not a career musician, such as Paul McCartney, or CSNY, I would classsify them as legacy. Sort of fixed in time, and only performing rarely and billed as oldies. They may have music classified as “oldies” but the distinction for me is having the last recording out of the 60’s or 70’s and that is not the BB’s. So I’d think of The Grass Roots who often go out on tour with other bands from the same years. Like a 60’s Rock Revival tour. They have successfully recorded - as a band if you look at TWGMTR, and charting up until 2012. They are career musicians. And a lot of solo stuff - much more recently. Legacy to me means you revive your old work to showcase occasionally and it is only those particular decades and your work is limited to a short time. Maybe others look at it differently...
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Post by The Cap'n on Feb 22, 2019 19:52:30 GMT -5
I get the distinction, and that's a fair point: consistently (at least semi-)active versus mostly inactive as a creative, recording entity.
I would say, however, that TWGMTR, for example, was received with similar reverence. And I'd also say that things like Dylan's multi-album foray into oldies didn't do him any favors despite the few albums in his wonderful late 90s-to-mid-00s renaissance in this department.
Still, I would argue that the distinction between very rarely active groups versus semi-consistently active groups whose heydays are all decades ago is probably mostly made by people who are irrelevant to modern popular music and whose value to the industry is almost exclusively in buying legacy artists' various projects.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 8:16:03 GMT -5
The Beach Boys' legacy is a fascinating subject that probably deserves its own thread. As a longtime fan, I think The Beach Boys' legacy is one of the (what words am I looking for) - most widespread, scattered, not very well known, varied, inconsistent - of almost any artist/group I can think of. It's all over the place! A certain percentage think of them as strictly a surf & turf band. Some people think of them as an oldies act. A certain number are aware of the early hits and then Pet Sounds. Few actually know that the 1967-1973 period existed. Some know about the "Brian Wilson story" but not all of the other controversy in the group. Some are aware of the "split" in 1976 with 15 Big Ones. And then some are like us who see the whole picture.
Over the years, it seems like whoever I talk to about The Beach Boys views them in a different way. It would be interesting to see some kind of study or breakdown of how The Beach Boys are viewed. Can anybody think of a band with a legacy as...varied?
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Post by monolithic on Feb 23, 2019 8:35:39 GMT -5
The Beach Boys' legacy is a fascinating subject that probably deserves its own thread. As a longtime fan, I think The Beach Boys' legacy is one of the (what words am I looking for) - most widespread, scattered, not very well known, varied, inconsistent - of almost any artist/group I can think of. It's all over the place! A certain percentage think of them as strictly a surf & turf band. Some people think of them as an oldies act. A certain number are aware of the early hits and then Pet Sounds. Few actually know that the 1967-1973 period existed. Some know about the "Brian Wilson story" but not all of the other controversy in the group. Some are aware of the "split" in 1976 with 15 Big Ones. And then some are like us who see the whole picture.
Over the years, it seems like whoever I talk to about The Beach Boys views them in a different way. It would be interesting to see some kind of study or breakdown of how The Beach Boys are viewed. Can anybody think of a band with a legacy as...varied?
I think another variation comes with location as well. Those late 60s and early 70s albums sometimes being much more highly thought of in Europe, for example, than they can be on occasion in the group's homeland.
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 23, 2019 9:12:58 GMT -5
I get the distinction, and that's a fair point: consistently (at least semi-)active versus mostly inactive as a creative, recording entity.
I would say, however, that TWGMTR, for example, was received with similar reverence. And I'd also say that things like Dylan's multi-album foray into oldies didn't do him any favors despite the few albums in his wonderful late 90s-to-mid-00s renaissance in this department.
Still, I would argue that the distinction between very rarely active groups versus semi-consistently active groups whose heydays are all decades ago is probably mostly made by people who are irrelevant to modern popular music and whose value to the industry is almost exclusively in buying legacy artists' various projects.
Active or semi-active, all the time, versus inactive, except to drag the music out and put it on parade, seasonally or less often than that. Well put.
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Post by lonesurf on Feb 26, 2019 21:50:00 GMT -5
Reading a review of a recent Jardine Storytellers show (http://facethemusicjr.wixsite.com/facethemusic/single-post/2019/02/20/Al-Jardine-E280A2-Original-Founding-Member-of-The-Beach-Boys) and saw this:
"Before wrapping up, Jardine hinted at plans for a Beach Boys reunion in celebration of their 60th anniversary. Whether that will be a tour or televised special remains to be seen."
PS - Interesting that Al calls The Beach Boys a quartet, with Dennis being primarily a drummer.
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Post by monolithic on Feb 27, 2019 1:51:05 GMT -5
I will believe any 60th anniversary exploits when I see them... Al, Matt and Jeff Ross have done a great job with their touring though. Considering there is only 3 of them, they do a very good job of covering as many vocal and instrumental parts as possible. More songs and less talking would probably make it a better concert (yes, I know that defeats the purpose of a storytelling show ), but it's cool that Al is taking so many chances.
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Post by kds on Feb 27, 2019 8:17:22 GMT -5
Reading a review of a recent Jardine Storytellers show (http://facethemusicjr.wixsite.com/facethemusic/single-post/2019/02/20/Al-Jardine-E280A2-Original-Founding-Member-of-The-Beach-Boys) and saw this: "Before wrapping up, Jardine hinted at plans for a Beach Boys reunion in celebration of their 60th anniversary. Whether that will be a tour or televised special remains to be seen." PS - Interesting that Al calls The Beach Boys a quartet, with Dennis being primarily a drummer. That's an interesting prospect, but considering none of the guys are getting younger, I don't know why they'd wait three years just for the sake of a nice even number.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2019 9:31:43 GMT -5
The Beach Boys first recording session (and please correct if I'm wrong) was "Surfin'" on September 15, 1961 and first (paying) live performance was December 31, 1961. So, in effect, they could call 2021 their 60th anniversary. They could release an album or perform a concert in mid/late 2020 and introduce it/themselves as "SOON to be celebrating their 60th anniversary..." Hey, that's only a little more than a year away!
Of course SOMETHING is going to happen for the 60th anniversary. They now have a lot of experience with anniversaries , a new old manager who is twiddling his thumbs, and more $$$$$$$$$$ to be made. Thanks for the vague comment, Al.
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Post by kds on Feb 27, 2019 9:35:08 GMT -5
The Beach Boys first recording session (and please correct if I'm wrong) was "Surfin'" on September 15, 1961 and first (paying) live performance was December 31, 1961. So, in effect, they could call 2021 their 60th anniversary. They could release an album or perform a concert in mid/late 2020 and introduce it/themselves as "SOON to be celebrating their 60th anniversary..." Hey, that's only a little more than a year away!
Of course SOMETHING is going to happen for the 60th anniversary. They now have a lot of experience with anniversaries , a new old manager who is twiddling his thumbs, and more $$$$$$$$$$ to be made. Thanks for the vague comment, Al. I've no doubt the 60th Anniversary will see......wait for it.......a brand new greatest hits compilation.
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 27, 2019 9:38:03 GMT -5
The Beach Boys first recording session (and please correct if I'm wrong) was "Surfin'" on September 15, 1961 and first (paying) live performance was December 31, 1961. So, in effect, they could call 2021 their 60th anniversary. They could release an album or perform a concert in mid/late 2020 and introduce it/themselves as "SOON to be celebrating their 60th anniversary..." Hey, that's only a little more than a year away!
Of course SOMETHING is going to happen for the 60th anniversary. They now have a lot of experience with anniversaries , a new old manager who is twiddling his thumbs, and more $$$$$$$$$$ to be made. Thanks for the vague comment, Al. I've no doubt the 60th Anniversary will see......wait for it.......a brand new greatest hits compilation. Why not 57? It is sooner - rather than later.
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Departed
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2019 9:42:01 GMT -5
The Beach Boys first recording session (and please correct if I'm wrong) was "Surfin'" on September 15, 1961 and first (paying) live performance was December 31, 1961. So, in effect, they could call 2021 their 60th anniversary. They could release an album or perform a concert in mid/late 2020 and introduce it/themselves as "SOON to be celebrating their 60th anniversary..." Hey, that's only a little more than a year away!
Of course SOMETHING is going to happen for the 60th anniversary. They now have a lot of experience with anniversaries , a new old manager who is twiddling his thumbs, and more $$$$$$$$$$ to be made. Thanks for the vague comment, Al. I've no doubt the 60th Anniversary will see......wait for it.......a brand new greatest hits compilation. Yeah, and probably a Beach Boys/Royal Philharmonic Orchestra - Vol. 2.
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Post by The Cap'n on Feb 27, 2019 9:43:56 GMT -5
IF something were going to happen--which I don't necessarily think or hope--time is of the essence. As KDS hinted at, people in their mid and late 70s probably ought not be thinking years in advance: they may not have the opportunity to realize those plans.
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Post by kds on Feb 27, 2019 10:11:21 GMT -5
I've no doubt the 60th Anniversary will see......wait for it.......a brand new greatest hits compilation. Yeah, and probably a Beach Boys/Royal Philharmonic Orchestra - Vol. 2. Yippie. Oh, and probably a Pet Sounds reissue just to be different. Maybe Pet Sounds with the RPO.
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Post by The Cap'n on Feb 27, 2019 10:13:48 GMT -5
I'll buy that greatest hits comp just as long as it features the long-sought collectors item of Stamos, Sugar Ray, and Sebu singing Surfer Girl (over Sebu's remix with the sick, sick beats!).
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Post by monolithic on Feb 27, 2019 15:43:38 GMT -5
I've no doubt the 60th Anniversary will see......wait for it.......a brand new greatest hits compilation. Indeed. 60 Big Ones is probably being planned as we speak...
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