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Post by Al S on Feb 4, 2019 1:40:56 GMT -5
My old turntable was broke and I finally got a new one last Fall. I never purchased the albums MIU through BB 85 on CD so since it had been a long time since I listened to them two things jumped out. First, those albums are not at all as bad as many of us think. In fact, there is at least one if not two excellent albums in there but that's another thread. Second, I think those vinyl lovers might be onto something and I always thought they were kind of nuts. Maybe it's the fact that you spend a lot of time setting up the record, dusting it and such that you end up paying more attention when you drop the needle but these albums sounded really fresh and alive to me from a fidelity standpoint. More natural perhaps? I know people claim they have a warmer sound but it was not really that...it was things like Carl's voice for instance sounded more lifelike to me on certain tracks. So now I'm regretting have given away dozens of albums about 10 years ago. Thankfully I kept all of my BB's stuff that mattered, but a lot of 70's & 80's bands I let go....really stupid. I know we've discussed this with Steve Desper who takes it a step further as he said you need to hear the actual tapes to really be blown away but I'm curious what others think. Brand new vinyl by current artists if it is recorded digitally doesn't seem to make much sense to me but I'm rethinking the original vinyl from master analog tapes. In any case playing those old BB's records is just plain fun so if you can...do it. Hopefully you’ve been a good lad and have bought the recent Analogue Productions BB vinyl reissue series. If not, go forth!
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Post by Custom Machine on Feb 4, 2019 3:07:03 GMT -5
Concerning vinyl, just for the record (no pun intended!), back in the day 78 rpm records were pressed on shellac, and large percentage of 45 rpm singles (and in rare cases some Long Play albums) were injection molded (rather than pressed) using polystyrene.
(One way to tell the diff is that polystyrene records have glued on labels, whereas vinyl labels were pressed directly into the hot vinyl. While polystyrene records were typically free of clicks and pops when brand new, they tended to wear out much faster than vinyl, especially if a heavy tracking and/or worn stylus was used.)
In the case of stock copies of the Beach Boys US 45 rpm singles, all of their Capitol releases were pressed on vinyl, mostly vinyl but some polystyrene was used on the Brother/Reprise releases, and to the best of my knowledge polystyrene was used exclusively on stock copies of the Caribou singles as well Kokomo on Elektra. (Vinyl was used for radio station promo singles due to its better wear qualities and resistance to cue burn.)
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Post by Vale on Feb 4, 2019 3:12:13 GMT -5
My old turntable was broke and I finally got a new one last Fall. I never purchased the albums MIU through BB 85 on CD so since it had been a long time since I listened to them two things jumped out. First, those albums are not at all as bad as many of us think. In fact, there is at least one if not two excellent albums in there but that's another thread. Second, I think those vinyl lovers might be onto something and I always thought they were kind of nuts. Maybe it's the fact that you spend a lot of time setting up the record, dusting it and such that you end up paying more attention when you drop the needle but these albums sounded really fresh and alive to me from a fidelity standpoint. More natural perhaps? I know people claim they have a warmer sound but it was not really that...it was things like Carl's voice for instance sounded more lifelike to me on certain tracks. So now I'm regretting have given away dozens of albums about 10 years ago. Thankfully I kept all of my BB's stuff that mattered, but a lot of 70's & 80's bands I let go....really stupid. I know we've discussed this with Steve Desper who takes it a step further as he said you need to hear the actual tapes to really be blown away but I'm curious what others think. Brand new vinyl by current artists if it is recorded digitally doesn't seem to make much sense to me but I'm rethinking the original vinyl from master analog tapes. In any case playing those old BB's records is just plain fun so if you can...do it. Hopefully you’ve been a good lad and have bought the recent Analogue Productions BB vinyl reissue series. If not, go forth! I have not yet had the chance to buy one, is it really worth it? They are somewhat expensive... about 50 $ each... (and increasing as time passes)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 7:10:54 GMT -5
Does no one else call them records? I mean I know technically a record is anything that has been recorded, but I generally refer to my vinyl as records. In Japan, people pretty much always refer to vinyl as records.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 7:31:58 GMT -5
I never referred to records as vinyl. My entire life, 78 RPM recordings were called 78s, 45 RPM recordings were called 45s, and 33 RPM recordings were called albums. Overall, they were called "records"...my record collection. And I ain't changing now.
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 4, 2019 8:50:53 GMT -5
I never referred to records as vinyl. My entire life, 78 RPM recordings were called 78s, 45 RPM recordings were called 45s, and 33 RPM recordings were called albums. Overall, they were called "records"...my record collection. And I ain't changing now. "Records!"
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Post by kds on Feb 4, 2019 9:25:16 GMT -5
I never referred to records as vinyl. My entire life, 78 RPM recordings were called 78s, 45 RPM recordings were called 45s, and 33 RPM recordings were called albums. Overall, they were called "records"...my record collection. And I ain't changing now. Bob Seger's not changing either. He still takes those old records off the shelf every night.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 11:45:05 GMT -5
Admittedly I've never heard the expression "vinyls" either but I'm not going to begrudge teenagers and twenty-somethings for developing their own lingo for such things. That's to be expected. It's kind of their way of laying claim to something that existed before they came along. In the comic book collecting world I had to grow accustomed to a younger generation suddenly labeling writers and artists as "creatives" rather than, well, writers and artists. Imagine how all the folks who still refer to their records as "wax" must feel?
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Post by geminitactics on Feb 4, 2019 11:59:20 GMT -5
I feel like the term "vinyl" only came into prominence after CDs came out in the late 80s. Then the term "record" began to refer more to the recording itself, irrespective of format. I still call them records, though!
I do really enjoy the beautiful special editions and color vinyl that come out regularly these days, and 'buying records' has once again become a bi-monthly pasttime as it was for me in the 80s - I do balk when the price goes over $25 though, unless it's obviously a rarity in good quality.
But I agree with the OP that there is something 'special' about listening to a good quality vinyl on a nice sound system... feels warmer and more corporeal, somehow. Tough to explain but I've definitely noticed. The Smile Sessions vinyl, especially, have put my Ohm speakers to the test! I've almost pulled up a floorboard or two with that bass sound.
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Post by Paul JB on Feb 4, 2019 13:52:57 GMT -5
Hopefully you’ve been a good lad and have bought the recent Analogue Productions BB vinyl reissue series. If not, go forth! Good lad yes, bought them no. I'm still missing a small amount of the originals. These Analog Production ones are from the original master tapes? I have heard about them....that will be hundreds of dollars....what have I done here!
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Post by Paul JB on Feb 4, 2019 14:45:11 GMT -5
They knew this was coming 20 years ago. I was simply commenting on a trend that I feel is taking music down. And now that people are so used to having access to so much free music, there's likely to be some blowback when its time to pay the piper. In the meantime, I'll still be one of a dying breed, buying and listening to CDs, which considering are a fraction of the cost of a vinyl LP, is I think the best way to go for music ownership. You raised a lot of valid points. Any song anywhere, anytime may also lessen it's importance...especially going forward for people growing up that will never know anything BUT streaming. For anyone over say maybe 30....we grew up before digital cameras, and now, phones which are replacing cameras, and photos meant something. Now we take thousands of photos a years of family, friends, places and what do we do with them...? Mostly they sit on a hard drive and are forgotten...they aren't going anywhere right...so we can look at them later but we mostly ignore them and keep adding hundreds more each year. When you no longer have to think about the music you pursue because it's just THERE, it no longer seems special, to me anyway. And I'm not dumb enough not to see the benefits of digital photography....some of these phone cameras are mind boggling, but some of the magic has been lost. Dying breed indeed. CD players in cars are going and soon to be gone too. For new music recorded digitally (as most is these days?) I would much rather have a CD than a record. I have an original master recording of Surfin' USA and Surfer Girl, not the 1990 2-fers, it's one of those gold disc things,...and that sounds incredible., a noticeable difference between that and the 1990 CD release. Another shout out to Jim Murphy....The way his book starts with him and his brother running all over to find a record (no spoilers) was so wonderful and one of those been there done that moments that it's actually sad to think that future kids won't EVER have that. Seems clear to me the goal down the road here is to stream everything and pay a subscription fee. Gotta say I HATE that.
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Post by kds on Feb 4, 2019 15:11:14 GMT -5
They knew this was coming 20 years ago. I was simply commenting on a trend that I feel is taking music down. And now that people are so used to having access to so much free music, there's likely to be some blowback when its time to pay the piper. In the meantime, I'll still be one of a dying breed, buying and listening to CDs, which considering are a fraction of the cost of a vinyl LP, is I think the best way to go for music ownership. You raised a lot of valid points. Any song anywhere, anytime may also lessen it's importance...especially going forward for people growing up that will never know anything BUT streaming. For anyone over say maybe 30....we grew up before digital cameras, and now, phones which are replacing cameras, and photos meant something. Now we take thousands of photos a years of family, friends, places and what do we do with them...? Mostly they sit on a hard drive and are forgotten...they aren't going anywhere right...so we can look at them later but we mostly ignore them and keep adding hundreds more each year. When you no longer have to think about the music you pursue because it's just THERE, it no longer seems special, to me anyway. And I'm not dumb enough not to see the benefits of digital photography....some of these phone cameras are mind boggling, but some of the magic has been lost. Dying breed indeed. CD players in cars are going and soon to be gone too. For new music recorded digitally (as most is these days?) I would much rather have a CD than a record. I have an original master recording of Surfin' USA and Surfer Girl, not the 1990 2-fers, it's one of those gold disc things,...and that sounds incredible., a noticeable difference between that and the 1990 CD release. Another shout out to Jim Murphy....The way his book starts with him and his brother running all over to find a record (no spoilers) was so wonderful and one of those been there done that moments that it's actually sad to think that future kids won't EVER have that. Seems clear to me the goal down the road here is to stream everything and pay a subscription fee. Gotta say I HATE that. I agree with you about photos too. Since I went digital, I take so many more photographs than before, it's almost impossible to print them all out (though I did try for a small time). Now, I probably have six years of photographs on memory cards. My wife did start printing out some pictures after the baby was born last year. One of these days, I'm going to sift through my files and pick out the ones I really like and print them to put in albums.
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Post by geminitactics on Feb 4, 2019 15:21:37 GMT -5
Hopefully you’ve been a good lad and have bought the recent Analogue Productions BB vinyl reissue series. If not, go forth! Thank you for mentioning this! Just ordered the AP issues of Pet Sounds and Today...
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Post by Al S on Feb 4, 2019 16:19:14 GMT -5
Hopefully you’ve been a good lad and have bought the recent Analogue Productions BB vinyl reissue series. If not, go forth! I have not yet had the chance to buy one, is it really worth it? They are somewhat expensive... about 50 $ each... (and increasing as time passes) At bare minimum get the Pet Sounds Stereo - the 45 if you can afford it, but the 33/3 is great! Holland is a really good package - looks and sounds great and the bonus disc is a must have. Bar some shabby artwork on a couple of early years LPs, these are definitely worth the outlay.
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Post by Al S on Feb 4, 2019 16:36:02 GMT -5
Hopefully you’ve been a good lad and have bought the recent Analogue Productions BB vinyl reissue series. If not, go forth! Good lad yes, bought them no. I'm still missing a small amount of the originals. These Analog Production ones are from the original master tapes? I have heard about them....that will be hundreds of dollars....what have I done here! In general/most cases, these surpass the originals (specifically the Capitol years) which weren’t cut with the best of care - eg, the original pressings of Pet Sounds had a serious amount of low end frequencies trimmed. Original tapes and vintage mixes were sourced for all except modern stereo mixes (via Mark Linett) and Pet Sounds mono was alledgedly from a copy Steve Hoffman alledgedly made of the original master - the original master has been missing for sometime. On Surf’s Up you can hear a tape glitch or two. IMO, a vintage British original pressing of Summer Days is as good as the Acoustic Sounds, so you might save a few quid there. Your mileage may vary on Sunflower as to whether this reissue is as good as the original Artisan pressing supervised by Stephen D and Carl W, but it’s the best go to if you haven’t got an Artisan.
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Post by mikedonn on Feb 5, 2019 17:17:11 GMT -5
Yes, I also use a record player to play vinyl records!
I have a record collection, which consists of my vinyl. Then I have a CD collection etc.
Collectively, I have my music collection!
As John said earlier, we can refer to it all in many ways, we all know what we mean!
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Post by John Manning on Feb 5, 2019 17:21:09 GMT -5
Yes, I also use a record player to play vinyl records! I have a record collection, which consists of my vinyl. Then I have a CD collection etc. Collectively, I have my music collection! As John said earlier, we can refer to it all in many ways, we all know what we mean! Unless it’s a “schmoopen-schlapen-schlamagowitz”, then we’re all confused. Language - good language - saves us all from confusion.
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Post by The Cincinnati Kid on Feb 5, 2019 19:27:45 GMT -5
Language is constantly evolving and many words don't mean what they did 100 or 50 years ago. This is really an unnecessary debate, so let's get back on topic.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2019 21:19:42 GMT -5
I have a question I'd like to discuss.
Is there any benefit at all to 180 gram vinyl besides durability? Does using heavier vinyl allow for deeper grooves and therefore higher quality music or is it largely an overblown marketing gimmick? Is there a reason why they've stopped at 180 or could we theoretically see even heavier vinyl in the future?
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Post by Al S on Feb 6, 2019 1:59:40 GMT -5
I have a question I'd like to discuss. Is there any benefit at all to 180 gram vinyl besides durability? Does using heavier vinyl allow for deeper grooves and therefore higher quality music or is it largely an overblown marketing gimmick? Is there a reason why they've stopped at 180 or could we theoretically see even heavier vinyl in the future? Not an expert but my understanding is 180g and higher (yes, you can get 200g) reduce the chances of warping compared to lesser pressings - so the weight is mainly about durability etc as you’ve noted. In terms of sonics it’s a hard call and the mastering is the real influencer - I’ve got some 180’s that sound like shit due to shit mastering, and I’ve got some late 1970’s pressings so thin you can roll ‘em up and put ‘em in your back pocket that sound fabulous. As usual in the nebulous world of audio formats, your snake oil may vary.
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Post by Al S on Feb 6, 2019 2:04:56 GMT -5
Having said that, if an LP is too thick or thin, it could throw off the VTA (vertickle tracking angle) of your stylus - if the stylus is square to the groove, bliss, if inclined forward or back you take a hit to either the top end (treble) or low end (bass) - again potentially influencing how you hear something.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 2:20:25 GMT -5
Thanks, Al S ! It's both fascinating and frustrating to know all the ways the sonic quality on vinyls can be influenced. I have to admit sometimes it makes me feel paranoid knowing whether I got the best pressing, or my sound system is off, or if there's something else preventing me from hearing the music in the best possible way.
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Post by Al S on Feb 6, 2019 6:15:01 GMT -5
Thanks, Al S ! It's both fascinating and frustrating to know all the ways the sonic quality on vinyls can be influenced. I have to admit sometimes it makes me feel paranoid knowing whether I got the best pressing, or my sound system is off, or if there's something else preventing me from hearing the music in the best possible way. In most cases, most pressings fall into the “good” department - getting the best can be expensive, elusive and sometimes a path to madness. As a suggestion, depending on your budget, research and purchase at least 1 known best pressing or from a highly regarded run. Use it as a baseline to help you guage the quality of your other records. Sometimes I’ve played x LP and thought something in my listening chain was fucked - but a quick play of using baseline disc indicated it was x LP at fault. I recommend any of the recent Music Matters Blue Note reissues for baseline use - AAA pressings, beautifully mastered by Kevin Gray and sometimes with Steve Hoffman, they really set the scene and help identify the dross. And if these sound bad on your system, you’ll know you probably have a tech problem (except the Bud Powell records; the problem there is Bud). Depending on what kind of turntable you have, it’s not a bad idea to get someone who knows their stuff to check the set-up if you are unsure - might cost you $50, but that’s an investment against long term spending on LP induced anxiety medication. And you can rule out your turntable as being way off. And keep in mind, the better your system and your control of myriad variables, the more revealing (of both good and bad elements) it is.
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