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Post by filledeplage on Jun 19, 2024 8:40:36 GMT -5
Can anyone remember the very first time they heard “Heroes and Villains.” I remember it sounded very dense and strange. Not at all what I expected after “Good Vibrations.” Yes - heard it on an am car radio coming back from one of those Bart Simpson "family road trips." "Dense and strange" (a little inconsistent with their prior work) interesting terms, but pretty accurate. My biggest issue with that era is that if you are taking on a topic for your music, then you tell people what is going on; especially when you are in such fierce competition, with established artists and new ones coming through the pipeline. I remember it more, because it was such a contrast to the other work.
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mike
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Post by mike on Jun 19, 2024 9:34:29 GMT -5
Not really as it was on that 20 Golden Greats album and it didn't make much of an impression on me - my fave was 'I can hear Music'. H&V didn't impress because the production is fairly weak and just odd. When I heard the earlier stronger takes and different sections that changed of course - I think buried in there somewhere is a genius follow up to GV. Can anyone remember the very first time they heard “Heroes and Villains.” I remember it sounded very dense and strange. Not at all what I expected after “Good Vibrations.”
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Post by Cam Mott on Jun 19, 2024 12:51:27 GMT -5
My memory (never reliable!) is that the list was drawn up by Darian and included everything that might possibly have a Smile connection, for Brian to then go through and simply state “yes” or “no” to each track. Criteria for inclusion, I’d guess, might include anything written in 66/67, anything which included VDP in the credits, and anything avant garde (or weird!). That is the memory/impression (never reliable either) I have of Coach's call reading me the list.
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Post by jds on Jun 19, 2024 13:39:59 GMT -5
Sorry to be thick, but is the list as received Darian's list or Brian's selections?
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Post by Micha on Jun 19, 2024 16:21:38 GMT -5
Don't understand this take at all. Do you honestly think the transitions in DYLW are more abrupt/incoherent than in Good Vibrations - churchy organ hard cutting into Krautrock complete with theremin..? I think DYLW - even in its most basic form - rolls along very nicely and is very logically constructed: steamboats/Plymouth Rock/BR/Hawaii - to me its always flowed musically and with the lyrics we have makes perfect sense. We know there are missing lyrics although I'm not sure why the 'East/West Indies' ones weren't included in '04 - they would have gone over the BR outro I expect. I think the 'Plymouth Rock roll over' bridge is one of the most powerful sections in all pop - lyrically easily competing with Dylan. I think its a juggernaut of a track. I think DYLW is a very poor attempt to turn the BR theme into a song. Way too fragmented to connect with hit singles audiences. Just a bunch of two chord sections randomly edited together. Some of them with fantastic arrangements, but absolutely incoherent. Even the BR theme is torn apart. My opinion at least, who knows what would have happened had it been a single. Honestly, yes I do. I hope you don't take this personally, and my musical taste is far from universally valid anyway. But yes again, I feel it's incoherent musically and I remember my disappointment when I first listened to the 1996 box set version. First a section with a basic I-IV-I-IV chord progression, quite below Brian's standards set with Pet Sounds. Then a lone bass playing two alternating notes (which only ever worked in the Jaws theme) with a weird lyric over it. Abrupt/incoherent change to the completely differently feel of the BR theme, building up nicely, but instead of going through to its ending and building up further, it is interrupted by a DEAD STOP. And then repeat the boring parts again. Then a section that is at least arranged in an interesting way, but again it's a I-IV-ad-infinitum chord progression, only in a minor key this time, with lyrics that are really only good enough for background vocals. A case of the individual parts not coming together to a greater whole - for me at least. In shorter words, it's an interesting experimental piece rather than something that resembles a song, let alone something qualified for a single release. It works only in an album context. To me it doesn't roll musically at all. I'm sorry.
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Post by Micha on Jun 19, 2024 16:38:42 GMT -5
Can anyone remember the very first time they heard “Heroes and Villains.” I remember it sounded very dense and strange. Not at all what I expected after “Good Vibrations.” It was in 1996. On the first listen I thought, what a fantastic background vocal arrangement with the completely different parts going on simultaneously. Then the harpsichord started, and I love the harpsichord. When the song faded, I thought: "That's all?" Sometimes I play the single version to friends, followed by the cantina version, and then I ask them which they liked better. They always pick the cantina version. About 10 years ago, I accidentally had a musical quiz show on the radio on. At some point to my surprise they played the full single version, which I had never heard on German radio before. The question to the contestants was, who performed this song. Nobody knew or could even place a guess.
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danlega
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Post by danlega on Jun 19, 2024 21:24:12 GMT -5
I was in high school in the early 70's when my older brother borrowed the albums "Surf's Up" and "Beach Boys Greatest Hits, Vol. 3" from a friend. This started us on our road to Beach Boy fandom! I distinctly remember really liking "Heroes & Villains!"
And I noticed "Heroes" and "Surf's Up" (which I also really loved!) were both co-written by this Van Dyke Parks fellow, and I thought, wow, Brian should have written more songs with this guy!
Love and merci, Dan Lega
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Post by Emdeeh on Jun 19, 2024 23:20:52 GMT -5
I first heard H&V on the radio when it was released, and loved it immediately. I thought it was a worthy successor to "Good Vibrations."
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Post by Mikie on Jun 20, 2024 0:15:47 GMT -5
So the premise of the thread is "Smile singles". Unless I'm missing something, I only see two potential singles off the [unfinished] album - Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains, and they were released. GV hit #1 and Heroes went to #12 on Billboard. Vegetables was intended and promoted for release by Brian, VDP played down the song's importance, and the idea for a single was scrapped and it came out as an album cut on Smiley Smile. Laughing Gravy released it as a single in '67 and it didn't do shit on the charts. A Beach Boys release of the song woulda done the same thing, just like the Gettin' Hungry/Devoted To You single did. Surf's Up was released as a single four years later and it didn't do diddly squat on the charts either. Love To Say Dada/Cool, Cool Water was released in finished form as an album cut and a single three years later and the single didn't chart either. Our Prayer and Cabinessence were album cuts on 20/20 and we know how that album did in the sales figures. I'd say Good Vibrations, Heroes & Villains, Cabinessence, and Surf's Up were cornerstones to Smile. Maybe. Don't get me started on track listings!!
So let's look at the rest of the songs and you tell me if anything else that was finished or (mostly finished) was commercial enough or had the potential for the "A" side of a single in 1967.
1. Our Prayer 2. Do You Like Worms 3. Cabin Essence 4. Vegetables 5. Mrs. O'Leary's Cow (Fire) 6. Wind Chimes 7. Wonderful 8. Child Is The Father 9. Other
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mike
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Post by mike on Jun 20, 2024 4:05:12 GMT -5
Hi Micha cheers for your thoughts. Here's my response: 1 - First section just 2 chords: in music the number of chords doesn't matter - what matters is what you're trying to express so 1 chord or 50 chords its all the same. 2 - Lone bass playing 2 notes is the right underpinning for the 'Plymouth Rock' lyrics - written by a master composer who wanted a specific effect. 3 - Weird lyric: spectacular writing that evokes modern America, the Founding Fathers, and the dark underbelly - all in just 8 words. Bob Dylan would have been jealous. 4 - Abrupt/incoherent change: the ascending notes of the last 'overerrr' perfectly builds up and melds into the BR theme. 5 - BR theme 'building up nicely': building up to what..? You're comparing it to the imaginary version in your head. 6 - Dead stop: so what..? Loads of songs have dead stops. 7 - I-IV chord progression: its a lovely haunting section that I suspect is missing lyrics. Or not. Either way the amount of chords doesn't matter - its chant based as is a lot of Smile. Its a very logically worked out song: sea shanty - BR - sea shanty - BR - Hawaii - BR. Can't argue with you if you don't like it - if everyone liked the same the world would be very boring eh ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Don't understand this take at all. Do you honestly think the transitions in DYLW are more abrupt/incoherent than in Good Vibrations - churchy organ hard cutting into Krautrock complete with theremin..? I think DYLW - even in its most basic form - rolls along very nicely and is very logically constructed: steamboats/Plymouth Rock/BR/Hawaii - to me its always flowed musically and with the lyrics we have makes perfect sense. We know there are missing lyrics although I'm not sure why the 'East/West Indies' ones weren't included in '04 - they would have gone over the BR outro I expect. I think the 'Plymouth Rock roll over' bridge is one of the most powerful sections in all pop - lyrically easily competing with Dylan. I think its a juggernaut of a track. Honestly, yes I do. I hope you don't take this personally, and my musical taste is far from universally valid anyway. But yes again, I feel it's incoherent musically and I remember my disappointment when I first listened to the 1996 box set version. First a section with a basic I-IV-I-IV chord progression, quite below Brian's standards set with Pet Sounds. Then a lone bass playing two alternating notes (which only ever worked in the Jaws theme) with a weird lyric over it. Abrupt/incoherent change to the completely differently feel of the BR theme, building up nicely, but instead of going through to its ending and building up further, it is interrupted by a DEAD STOP. And then repeat the boring parts again. Then a section that is at least arranged in an interesting way, but again it's a I-IV-ad-infinitum chord progression, only in a minor key this time, with lyrics that are really only good enough for background vocals. A case of the individual parts not coming together to a greater whole - for me at least. In shorter words, it's an interesting experimental piece rather than something that resembles a song, let alone something qualified for a single release. It works only in an album context. To me it doesn't roll musically at all. I'm sorry.
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Post by highllama on Jun 20, 2024 5:35:40 GMT -5
I've sometimes wondered if the second version of "Wonderful" ("Rock with me Henry") was done with the thought of releasing it as a single. Brian's other reworkings ("Wind Chimes," "Child") seem to evolve with Smile as a composition. "Wonderful" is fairly different, though. The humor in version two may have been an attempt to make it more "Beach Boys," and think of them having to perform it on the road. I believe the only Pet Sounds songs they did live, right after its release, were the singles.
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Post by highllama on Jun 20, 2024 5:39:12 GMT -5
I forgot about GV - I think Brian put it on to please the record company - it doesn't fit at all does it..? I keep hearing this, and I just don't buy that it "doesn't fit" on Smile. It fits just fine, from a sonic perspective. I can see Brian feeling pressure to include it on Smiley Smile where it absolutely doesn't fit the cozy, homespun beauty of that album. For Smile? It was recorded right in the middle of the sessions. Wonderful, Wind Chimes, Look, Holidays, and a version of Our Prayer were all at least partially tracked before it was finished. It is a Smile track. Good points. It also has some similarities with "Look," as people have pointed out over the years. And one of the cut "Good Vibrations" sections reminds me of that final section of "Dada" we hear the players go into during the sessions, without getting a proper recording. It's also in one of the "Cool Water" sessions. There seems to have been some effort to make "Vibrations" fit. It's only the lyrics that feel a bit separate, but I think it still works at the ending, as it eventually became.
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Post by boogieboarder on Jun 20, 2024 8:15:46 GMT -5
So the premise of the thread is "Smile singles". Unless I'm missing something, I only see two potential singles off the [unfinished] album - Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains, and they were released. GV hit #1 and Heroes went to #12 on Billboard. Vegetables was intended and promoted for release by Brian, VDP played down the song's importance, and the idea for a single was scrapped and it came out as an album cut on Smiley Smile. Laughing Gravy released it as a single in '67 and it didn't do shit on the charts. A Beach Boys release of the song woulda done the same thing, just like the Gettin' Hungry/Devoted To You single did. Surf's Up was released as a single four years later and it didn't do diddly squat on the charts either. Love To Say Dada/Cool, Cool Water was released in finished form as an album cut and a single three years later and the single didn't chart either. Our Prayer and Cabinessence were album cuts on 20/20 and we know how that album did in the sales figures. I'd say Good Vibrations, Heroes & Villains, Cabinessence, and Surf's Up were cornerstones to Smile. Maybe. Don't get me started on track listings!! So let's look at the rest of the songs and you tell me if anything else that was finished or (mostly finished) was commercial enough or had the potential for the "A" side of a single in 1967. 1. Our Prayer 2. Do You Like Worms 3. Cabin Essence 4. Vegetables 5. Mrs. O'Leary's Cow (Fire) 6. Wind Chimes 7. Wonderful 8. Child Is The Father 9. Other Fast forward to 2004, and Brian Wilson releases four singles from Smile: Wonderful / Wind Chimes - goes to 29 in UK, doesn’t chart in U.S. Good Vibrations / In Blue Hawaii (instrumental) - goes to 30 in UK, doesn’t chart in U.S. Good Vibrations / Our Prayer (live) / Good Vibrations (live) - doesn’t chart Our Prayer (Freeform Reform mix) - doesn’t chart. Fast forward to 2011, The Beach Boys release two singles from the Smile Sessions Box Cabin Essence / Wonderful - doesn’t chart. Vegetables / Surf’s Up - doesn’t chart.
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Post by gigantiskpyjamas on Jun 20, 2024 14:53:26 GMT -5
So the premise of the thread is "Smile singles". Unless I'm missing something, I only see two potential singles off the [unfinished] album - Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains, and they were released. GV hit #1 and Heroes went to #12 on Billboard. Vegetables was intended and promoted for release by Brian, VDP played down the song's importance, and the idea for a single was scrapped and it came out as an album cut on Smiley Smile. Laughing Gravy released it as a single in '67 and it didn't do shit on the charts. A Beach Boys release of the song woulda done the same thing, just like the Gettin' Hungry/Devoted To You single did. Surf's Up was released as a single four years later and it didn't do diddly squat on the charts either. Love To Say Dada/Cool, Cool Water was released in finished form as an album cut and a single three years later and the single didn't chart either. Our Prayer and Cabinessence were album cuts on 20/20 and we know how that album did in the sales figures. I'd say Good Vibrations, Heroes & Villains, Cabinessence, and Surf's Up were cornerstones to Smile. Maybe. Don't get me started on track listings!! So let's look at the rest of the songs and you tell me if anything else that was finished or (mostly finished) was commercial enough or had the potential for the "A" side of a single in 1967. 1. Our Prayer 2. Do You Like Worms 3. Cabin Essence 4. Vegetables 5. Mrs. O'Leary's Cow (Fire) 6. Wind Chimes 7. Wonderful 8. Child Is The Father 9. Other Fast forward to 2004, and Brian Wilson releases four singles from Smile: Wonderful / Wind Chimes - goes to 29 in UK, doesn’t chart in U.S. Good Vibrations / In Blue Hawaii (instrumental) - goes to 30 in UK, doesn’t chart in U.S. Good Vibrations / Our Prayer (live) / Good Vibrations (live) - doesn’t chart Our Prayer (Freeform Reform mix) - doesn’t chart. Fast forward to 2011, The Beach Boys release two singles from the Smile Sessions Box Cabin Essence / Wonderful - doesn’t chart. Vegetables / Surf’s Up - doesn’t chart. Pardon me, but the Cabin Essence 45 was only issued as a freebie with Mojo magazine. I don’t think that type of “release” can chart? Also, the Vegetables / Surf’s Up 45 was issued as part of the Smile Sessions box set, so I’m not sure it could chart separately?
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felipe
Grommet
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Post by felipe on Jun 20, 2024 23:17:58 GMT -5
The first time I heard Heroes and Villains I remember the only part I liked was the chorus. The verses to me sounded like those corny german folk tunes. Only when I heard the early outtakes the rest of the song grew on me. Answering the thread, I think 4 songs could be singles:
1) Heroes and Villains early takes with a rearranged energetic chorus 2) Wonderful rock with me henry idea re-recorded and with some new middle 8 3) Cabinessence if Dennis could really deliver a rad lead 4) Surf's Up if the vocals and part 2 arrangements were as other-worldly as we imagined
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Post by lonelysummer on Jun 21, 2024 0:56:39 GMT -5
Bruce Johnston’s often quoted story about “Heroes and Villains” - as told in Wikipedia - “Bruce Johnston witnessed the record's debut at The Speakeasy Club in London. He recalled, ‘Everyone really got up to dance. But when the tempo changed, I knew we'd blown it with that record.’” I don’t agree with that assessment - dancing isn’t necessarily an indication of a hit song, or shouldn’t be. Did people dance to “Strawberry Fields Forever,” “Penny Lane,” Let It Be,” or “The Long and Winding Road?” But each of those went to number one, at least in several countries.Using dancing as a criteria, there wouldn’t really be any other contenders for hit singles from the Smile sessions, would there? Because it was THE BEATLES, is why. "The Ballad Of John & Yoko" was also a #1 but I'd wager a fair sum that released by anyone else it would have barely charted. Because it's simply Not Very Good. IN YOUR OPINION.
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Post by lonelysummer on Jun 21, 2024 1:08:12 GMT -5
So the premise of the thread is "Smile singles". Unless I'm missing something, I only see two potential singles off the [unfinished] album - Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains, and they were released. GV hit #1 and Heroes went to #12 on Billboard. Vegetables was intended and promoted for release by Brian, VDP played down the song's importance, and the idea for a single was scrapped and it came out as an album cut on Smiley Smile. Laughing Gravy released it as a single in '67 and it didn't do shit on the charts. A Beach Boys release of the song woulda done the same thing, just like the Gettin' Hungry/Devoted To You single did. Surf's Up was released as a single four years later and it didn't do diddly squat on the charts either. Love To Say Dada/Cool, Cool Water was released in finished form as an album cut and a single three years later and the single didn't chart either. Our Prayer and Cabinessence were album cuts on 20/20 and we know how that album did in the sales figures. I'd say Good Vibrations, Heroes & Villains, Cabinessence, and Surf's Up were cornerstones to Smile. Maybe. Don't get me started on track listings!! So let's look at the rest of the songs and you tell me if anything else that was finished or (mostly finished) was commercial enough or had the potential for the "A" side of a single in 1967. 1. Our Prayer 2. Do You Like Worms 3. Cabin Essence 4. Vegetables 5. Mrs. O'Leary's Cow (Fire) 6. Wind Chimes 7. Wonderful 8. Child Is The Father 9. Other Fast forward to 2004, and Brian Wilson releases four singles from Smile: Wonderful / Wind Chimes - goes to 29 in UK, doesn’t chart in U.S. Good Vibrations / In Blue Hawaii (instrumental) - goes to 30 in UK, doesn’t chart in U.S. Good Vibrations / Our Prayer (live) / Good Vibrations (live) - doesn’t chart Our Prayer (Freeform Reform mix) - doesn’t chart. Fast forward to 2011, The Beach Boys release two singles from the Smile Sessions Box Cabin Essence / Wonderful - doesn’t chart. Vegetables / Surf’s Up - doesn’t chart. Of course they don't. When was the last time the Beach Boys had a hit single? "Still Cruisin" was a top ten AC single in 1989. Since then, it's been a succession of flops in the singles dept. Problem Child, flop. Hot Fun in the Summertime, flop. Summer of Love, That's Why God Made the Radio, Isn't it Time...singles aren't where it's at for "heritage" rock acts. What radio stations are going to play these things? If it's oldies radio, they won't play them because they're not oldies.
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danlega
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Post by danlega on Jun 22, 2024 22:39:08 GMT -5
So the premise of the thread is "Smile singles". Unless I'm missing something, I only see two potential singles off the [unfinished] album - Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains, and they were released. GV hit #1 and Heroes went to #12 on Billboard. Vegetables was intended and promoted for release by Brian, VDP played down the song's importance, and the idea for a single was scrapped and it came out as an album cut on Smiley Smile. Laughing Gravy released it as a single in '67 and it didn't do shit on the charts. A Beach Boys release of the song woulda done the same thing, just like the Gettin' Hungry/Devoted To You single did. Surf's Up was released as a single four years later and it didn't do diddly squat on the charts either. Love To Say Dada/Cool, Cool Water was released in finished form as an album cut and a single three years later and the single didn't chart either. Our Prayer and Cabinessence were album cuts on 20/20 and we know how that album did in the sales figures. I'd say Good Vibrations, Heroes & Villains, Cabinessence, and Surf's Up were cornerstones to Smile. Maybe. Don't get me started on track listings!! So let's look at the rest of the songs and you tell me if anything else that was finished or (mostly finished) was commercial enough or had the potential for the "A" side of a single in 1967. 1. Our Prayer 2. Do You Like Worms 3. Cabin Essence 4. Vegetables 5. Mrs. O'Leary's Cow (Fire) 6. Wind Chimes 7. Wonderful 8. Child Is The Father 9. Other If Brian could have released SMiLE before the Beatles Sgt. Pepper, I could see a number of songs possibly being semi-hits: H&V, Cabin Essence, Wind Chimes, Wonderful, and perhaps Vege-Tables, too.
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danlega
Grommet
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Post by danlega on Jun 22, 2024 22:42:51 GMT -5
Oh, and Gettin' Hungry probably didn't have much of a chance since it was released as by "Brian and Mike" instead of "The Beach Boys!"
Sounds like Brian trying to placate Mike Love because he went and used another lyricist again (VDP), instead of being a good business decision.
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Post by Mikie on Jun 22, 2024 22:50:42 GMT -5
So the premise of the thread is "Smile singles". Unless I'm missing something, I only see two potential singles off the [unfinished] album - Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains, and they were released. GV hit #1 and Heroes went to #12 on Billboard. Vegetables was intended and promoted for release by Brian, VDP played down the song's importance, and the idea for a single was scrapped and it came out as an album cut on Smiley Smile. Laughing Gravy released it as a single in '67 and it didn't do shit on the charts. A Beach Boys release of the song woulda done the same thing, just like the Gettin' Hungry/Devoted To You single did. Surf's Up was released as a single four years later and it didn't do diddly squat on the charts either. Love To Say Dada/Cool, Cool Water was released in finished form as an album cut and a single three years later and the single didn't chart either. Our Prayer and Cabinessence were album cuts on 20/20 and we know how that album did in the sales figures. I'd say Good Vibrations, Heroes & Villains, Cabinessence, and Surf's Up were cornerstones to Smile. Maybe. Don't get me started on track listings!! So let's look at the rest of the songs and you tell me if anything else that was finished or (mostly finished) was commercial enough or had the potential for the "A" side of a single in 1967. 1. Our Prayer 2. Do You Like Worms 3. Cabin Essence 4. Vegetables 5. Mrs. O'Leary's Cow (Fire) 6. Wind Chimes 7. Wonderful 8. Child Is The Father 9. Other Cabin Essence, Wind Chimes, Wonderful, and Vege-Tables. Whether Smile was released before Sgt. Pepper's or not, I just can't see that happening. Possibly as B sides to GV and Heroes, but the songs couldn't stand on their own as single A sides, but they would go the same way as the Gettin' Hungry single did in '67, which was nowhere. They just weren't commercial enough. Album cuts, of course. But I can't see them as commercially strong, and they wouldn't have received adequate airplay. We're partial, and love those songs, but they didn't have single potential in my opinion. Those songs shoulda been B sides to the Brother singles instead of what was released. But hindsight is 20/20. (See what I did there?)
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Post by Mikie on Jun 22, 2024 22:54:18 GMT -5
Sounds like Brian trying to placate Mike Love because he went and used another lyricist again (VDP), instead of being a good business decision. Not sure if he thought working with Parks would affect any business decisions, but that's exactly what Brian did. He'd also promised Mike that he could be the lyricist on the next album, which was Wild Honey.
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Post by Mikie on Jun 23, 2024 0:36:10 GMT -5
I think it's safe to say that the 'Gettin' Hungry' single wouldn't have done diddley even if it had "The Beach Boys" moniker on the label.
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Post by boogieboarder on Jun 23, 2024 1:40:22 GMT -5
Even The Beatles didn’t release any singles from Sgt. Pepper. They could have, but it was really just an album concept, which Smile would have been. (Although The Beach Boys were also thinking in terms of singles).
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Post by Cam Mott on Jun 23, 2024 15:41:50 GMT -5
Sounds like Brian trying to placate Mike Love because he went and used another lyricist again (VDP), instead of being a good business decision. Not sure if he thought working with Parks would affect any business decisions, but that's exactly what Brian did. He'd also promised Mike that he could be the lyricist on the next album, which was Wild Honey. I don't know what their thinking was but at the release of Caroline, No Brian said they planned to do more occasional releases as a featured solo, as I remember he had Carl in mind next at the time.
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jasonkt
Dude/Dudette
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Post by jasonkt on Jun 23, 2024 16:46:25 GMT -5
I think Vegetables maybe could have been a hit if someone else sang it. Al sounds bored to me. A song like that needs a jauntier vocal.
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