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Post by Fall Breaks on Jun 17, 2024 10:08:14 GMT -5
What about Cabinessence? Classic verse/chorus/verse/chorus format. Uptempo (albeit weird cacophonic) chorus.
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mike
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Post by mike on Jun 17, 2024 10:47:50 GMT -5
One of his best songs but I wouldn't say its a single. DYLW lyrics aren't particularly strange - check Bob Dylan out. What about Cabinessence? Classic verse/chorus/verse/chorus format. Uptempo (albeit weird cacophonic) chorus.
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Post by Micha on Jun 17, 2024 14:45:39 GMT -5
I think DYLW is a very poor attempt to turn the BR theme into a song. Way too fragmented to connect with hit singles audiences. Just a bunch of two chord sections randomly edited together. Some of them with fantastic arrangements, but absolutely incoherent. Even the BR theme is torn apart. My opinion at least, who knows what would have happened had it been a single.
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Post by jds on Jun 17, 2024 15:25:56 GMT -5
I sort of think DYLW is perfect* in ghostly, spare form, one or two tape generations removed with weird audio warping -- and no verse lyrics at all. It's one of those strange accidents of history that ends up producing an audio artifact that's more compelling than whatever the finished product would have been.
*Not "perfect" in a "this should have been released as a single" way, but then again I don't see how one would think CIFOTM was a good choice for a single without knowing how the song goes, either.
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Post by gigantiskpyjamas on Jun 17, 2024 15:35:51 GMT -5
Wonderful and Wind Chimes could have been one of the greatest 45s of all time. It's hard to say which song would have worked best as the A-side. While it most definitely wouldn't have been a top 20 single, it would have been totally amazing. I’d rate it up there with I Get Around/Don’t Worry Baby.
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west
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Post by west on Jun 18, 2024 0:55:50 GMT -5
Was Brian already planning on using 'You're Welcome' as a B-side when they recorded it back in December 1966? If so, there's one side for your 'Good Vibrations' follow-up.
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mike
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Post by mike on Jun 18, 2024 1:55:59 GMT -5
This - I always loved the magic of the sound quality of the early boots - it felt to me like actually looking back through time to late '66 ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) I sort of think DYLW is perfect* in ghostly, spare form, one or two tape generations removed with weird audio warping -- and no verse lyrics at all. It's one of those strange accidents of history that ends up producing an audio artifact that's more compelling than whatever the finished product would have been. *Not "perfect" in a "this should have been released as a single" way, but then again I don't see how one would think CIFOTM was a good choice for a single without knowing how the song goes, either.
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petsite
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Post by petsite on Jun 18, 2024 1:57:59 GMT -5
Back when they were working on assembling SMiLE in 2003, this was the list they compiled of songs to include. I have had a lot of blowback on this, as if NO THIS CAN'T BE IT. It was just something that Brian had put together, nothing more.
Do You Like Worms Prayer Time To Get Alone Bicycle Rider Diamond Head Holidays Song For The Children Fall Breaks And Back To Winter I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night Wind Chimes Heroes And Villains Surf's Up Good Vibrations Cabin Essence Wonderful I'm In Great Shape Child Is Father Of The Man The Elements Vega-Tables The Old Master Painter
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mike
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Post by mike on Jun 18, 2024 2:06:38 GMT -5
Don't understand this take at all. Do you honestly think the transitions in DYLW are more abrupt/incoherent than in Good Vibrations - churchy organ hard cutting into Krautrock complete with theremin..? I think DYLW - even in its most basic form - rolls along very nicely and is very logically constructed: steamboats/Plymouth Rock/BR/Hawaii - to me its always flowed musically and with the lyrics we have makes perfect sense. We know there are missing lyrics although I'm not sure why the 'East/West Indies' ones weren't included in '04 - they would have gone over the BR outro I expect. I think the 'Plymouth Rock roll over' bridge is one of the most powerful sections in all pop - lyrically easily competing with Dylan. I think its a juggernaut of a track. I think DYLW is a very poor attempt to turn the BR theme into a song. Way too fragmented to connect with hit singles audiences. Just a bunch of two chord sections randomly edited together. Some of them with fantastic arrangements, but absolutely incoherent. Even the BR theme is torn apart. My opinion at least, who knows what would have happened had it been a single.
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mike
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Post by mike on Jun 18, 2024 2:13:02 GMT -5
TTGA I always thought is possibly related to Cabinessence. Both Waltzes. Dennis I think described CE originally as a 'funky cat up in the hills with his girl' - was it Dennis..? Also I think VDP said CE turned out quite different to what they originally planned..? Back when they were working on assembling SMiLE in 2003, this was the list they compiled of songs to include. I have had a lot of blowback on this, as if NO THIS CAN'T BE IT. It was just something that Brian had put together, nothing more.
Do You Like Worms Prayer Time To Get Alone Bicycle Rider Diamond Head Holidays Song For The Children Fall Breaks And Back To Winter I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night Wind Chimes Heroes And Villains Surf's Up Good Vibrations Cabin Essence Wonderful I'm In Great Shape Child Is Father Of The Man The Elements Vega-Tables The Old Master Painter
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M.I.U. Fan
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Post by M.I.U. Fan on Jun 18, 2024 11:29:41 GMT -5
I think the fact that Time To Get Alone was one of the Durrie Parks acetates means... something.
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M.I.U. Fan
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Post by M.I.U. Fan on Jun 18, 2024 11:33:20 GMT -5
Back when they were working on assembling SMiLE in 2003, this was the list they compiled of songs to include. I have had a lot of blowback on this, as if NO THIS CAN'T BE IT. It was just something that Brian had put together, nothing more.
Do You Like Worms Prayer Time To Get Alone Bicycle Rider Diamond Head Holidays Song For The Children Fall Breaks And Back To Winter I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night Wind Chimes Heroes And Villains Surf's Up Good Vibrations Cabin Essence Wonderful I'm In Great Shape Child Is Father Of The Man The Elements Vega-Tables The Old Master Painter
Is it possible "Diamond Head" was supposed to be "Dada"? Just seems so randomly out of place.
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Post by jds on Jun 18, 2024 11:49:53 GMT -5
I think the fact that Time To Get Alone was one of the Durrie Parks acetates means... something. Unless the Durrie Parks instrumental (which seems to describe a completed backing track) somehow predates "Untitled (Redwood)" I'm not sure it's evidence of anything other than Van Dyke maintained regular contact and friendly relations with Brian/the group. (A fact that's elided in the supposed dramatic Smile collapse narrative.)
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Post by boogieboarder on Jun 18, 2024 22:09:17 GMT -5
Bruce Johnston’s often quoted story about “Heroes and Villains” - as told in Wikipedia - “Bruce Johnston witnessed the record's debut at The Speakeasy Club in London. He recalled, ‘Everyone really got up to dance. But when the tempo changed, I knew we'd blown it with that record.’”
I don’t agree with that assessment - dancing isn’t necessarily an indication of a hit song, or shouldn’t be. Did people dance to “Strawberry Fields Forever,” “Penny Lane,” Let It Be,” or “The Long and Winding Road?” But each of those went to number one, at least in several countries.
Using dancing as a criteria, there wouldn’t really be any other contenders for hit singles from the Smile sessions, would there?
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Post by John Manning on Jun 19, 2024 0:33:34 GMT -5
My memory (never reliable!) is that the list was drawn up by Darian and included everything that might possibly have a Smile connection, for Brian to then go through and simply state “yes” or “no” to each track. Criteria for inclusion, I’d guess, might include anything written in 66/67, anything which included VDP in the credits, and anything avant garde (or weird!).
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Post by lonelysummer on Jun 19, 2024 0:52:02 GMT -5
Bruce Johnston’s often quoted story about “Heroes and Villains” - as told in Wikipedia - “Bruce Johnston witnessed the record's debut at The Speakeasy Club in London. He recalled, ‘Everyone really got up to dance. But when the tempo changed, I knew we'd blown it with that record.’” I don’t agree with that assessment - dancing isn’t necessarily an indication of a hit song, or shouldn’t be. Did people dance to “Strawberry Fields Forever,” “Penny Lane,” Let It Be,” or “The Long and Winding Road?” But each of those went to number one, at least in several countries. Using dancing as a criteria, there wouldn’t really be any other contenders for hit singles from the Smile sessions, would there? Back in the 90's, I went to a Paul Revere and the Raiders concert at an old club in Seattle. The second part of the show, they cleared off the dance floor, and people got down there and danced their socks off to "Louie Louie", "Just Like Me", 'Hungry", and all them old tunes. Then they did "Indian Reservation" and Paul said "I don't know how great this tune is for dancing, but it was a number one record for us". So people kept dancing, until it got to the break at the end, then we all kind of stood around looking at each other like "what do we do now?" LOL. I think Bruce's assessment is wrong. And it's true H&V didn't have the worldwide chart topping success that GV did, but it was far from the flop history has painted it to be. There was a time in their career the Beach Boys would have killed for a #12 record.
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danlega
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Post by danlega on Jun 19, 2024 1:50:28 GMT -5
Then there is the story about Van Dyke Parks being asked by Brian to do lyrics for Good Vibrations, but turning it down -- because someone had already written some lyrics.(?!) The Tony Asher lyrics or the Mike Love lyrics? Or a combination of both?
I have often wondered what Van Dyke lyrics to Good Vibrations might have been if he had taken on the challenge! In this case Good Vibrations would have more likely fit into the groove of SMiLE!
Love and merci, Dan Lega
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Post by AGD on Jun 19, 2024 3:13:04 GMT -5
Bruce Johnston’s often quoted story about “Heroes and Villains” - as told in Wikipedia - “Bruce Johnston witnessed the record's debut at The Speakeasy Club in London. He recalled, ‘Everyone really got up to dance. But when the tempo changed, I knew we'd blown it with that record.’” I don’t agree with that assessment - dancing isn’t necessarily an indication of a hit song, or shouldn’t be. Did people dance to “Strawberry Fields Forever,” “Penny Lane,” Let It Be,” or “The Long and Winding Road?” But each of those went to number one, at least in several countries.Using dancing as a criteria, there wouldn’t really be any other contenders for hit singles from the Smile sessions, would there? Because it was THE BEATLES, is why. "The Ballad Of John & Yoko" was also a #1 but I'd wager a fair sum that released by anyone else it would have barely charted. Because it's simply Not Very Good.
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Post by AGD on Jun 19, 2024 3:16:03 GMT -5
Back when they were working on assembling SMiLE in 2003, this was the list they compiled of songs to include. I have had a lot of blowback on this, as if NO THIS CAN'T BE IT. It was just something that Brian had put together, nothing more.
Do You Like Worms Prayer Time To Get Alone Bicycle Rider Diamond Head Holidays Song For The Children Fall Breaks And Back To Winter I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night Wind Chimes Heroes And Villains Surf's Up Good Vibrations Cabin Essence Wonderful I'm In Great Shape Child Is Father Of The Man The Elements Vega-Tables The Old Master Painter
Darian showed some of us the actual list prior to the premiere (the scamp!): as I recall, "Diamond Head" was listed twice.
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Post by AGD on Jun 19, 2024 3:22:24 GMT -5
Back when they were working on assembling SMiLE in 2003, this was the list they compiled of songs to include. I have had a lot of blowback on this, as if NO THIS CAN'T BE IT. It was just something that Brian had put together, nothing more.
Do You Like Worms Prayer Time To Get Alone Bicycle Rider Diamond Head Holidays Song For The Children Fall Breaks And Back To Winter I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night Wind Chimes Heroes And Villains Surf's Up Good Vibrations Cabin Essence Wonderful I'm In Great Shape Child Is Father Of The Man The Elements Vega-Tables The Old Master Painter
Is it possible "Diamond Head" was supposed to be "Dada"? Just seems so randomly out of place. It was a Friends era studio jam, nothing more and nothing to do with Smile. Hence the composer credits of Vescozo/Ritz/Ackley/B. Wilson. Coincidentally, the AFM contract lists four musicians. One of the lesser BB myths.
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Post by longtime lurker on Jun 19, 2024 3:54:45 GMT -5
Don't understand this take at all. Do you honestly think the transitions in DYLW are more abrupt/incoherent than in Good Vibrations - churchy organ hard cutting into Krautrock complete with theremin..? I think DYLW - even in its most basic form - rolls along very nicely and is very logically constructed: steamboats/Plymouth Rock/BR/Hawaii - to me its always flowed musically and with the lyrics we have makes perfect sense. We know there are missing lyrics although I'm not sure why the 'East/West Indies' ones weren't included in '04 - they would have gone over the BR outro I expect. I think the 'Plymouth Rock roll over' bridge is one of the most powerful sections in all pop - lyrically easily competing with Dylan. I think its a juggernaut of a track. I think DYLW is a very poor attempt to turn the BR theme into a song. Way too fragmented to connect with hit singles audiences. Just a bunch of two chord sections randomly edited together. Some of them with fantastic arrangements, but absolutely incoherent. Even the BR theme is torn apart. My opinion at least, who knows what would have happened had it been a single. Fully agree that Worms is an awesome track, but IMO don't think it would've been a good choice for a single release.
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Post by jds on Jun 19, 2024 4:24:54 GMT -5
I think H&V only got as far as it did due to the Beach Boys name.
Frankly, any version of the songs fails as a radio track and would have been better off as a 10+ minute album studio flex a la "The Return of the Son of Monster Magnet."
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Post by boogieboarder on Jun 19, 2024 7:07:32 GMT -5
Bruce Johnston’s often quoted story about “Heroes and Villains” - as told in Wikipedia - “Bruce Johnston witnessed the record's debut at The Speakeasy Club in London. He recalled, ‘Everyone really got up to dance. But when the tempo changed, I knew we'd blown it with that record.’” I don’t agree with that assessment - dancing isn’t necessarily an indication of a hit song, or shouldn’t be. Did people dance to “Strawberry Fields Forever,” “Penny Lane,” Let It Be,” or “The Long and Winding Road?” But each of those went to number one, at least in several countries.Using dancing as a criteria, there wouldn’t really be any other contenders for hit singles from the Smile sessions, would there? Because it was THE BEATLES, is why. "The Ballad Of John & Yoko" was also a #1 but I'd wager a fair sum that released by anyone else it would have barely charted. Because it's simply Not Very Good. OK, I used The Beatles as an example. Wikipedia says the number one “top popular record” of 1967 was “To Sir With Love” by Lulu. Hardly a dance song, and hardly Beatles. In fact, The Beatles only made it to number 10 in that list for “Hello Goodbye,” the most popular nine being: Lulu “To Sir With Love” The Monkees “Daydream Believer” The Association “Windy” Bobby Gentry “Ode to Billie Joe” The Young Rascals “Groovin’” The Box Tops “The Letter.” The Doors “Light my Fire” Nancy and Frank Sinatra “Something Stupid” The Turtles “Happy Together” Several of those are the furthest from danceable records you could ever imagine, and none of them seem like dance classics.
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mike
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Post by mike on Jun 19, 2024 7:27:43 GMT -5
I think it would have been very easy to get a much better version in '67 by using the earlier much more powerful verse vocals + the chorus using the more delicate Bicycle Rider arrangement. No La La Las or droney organ. (Also maybe a better middle 8 than IIGS or Cantina - a variation of Iron Horse would be perfect). If you imagine that its a very similar arrangement but sonically a different universe. I think H&V only got as far as it did due to the Beach Boys name. Frankly, any version of the songs fails as a radio track and would have been better off as a 10+ minute album studio flex a la "The Return of the Son of Monster Magnet."
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Post by boogieboarder on Jun 19, 2024 8:27:45 GMT -5
Can anyone remember the very first time they heard “Heroes and Villains.” I remember it sounded very dense and strange. Not at all what I expected after “Good Vibrations.”
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