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Post by sixtiesstereo on Jun 21, 2022 6:44:53 GMT -5
I mentioned this upthread, but here's the stereo of Surfin' Safari from the Hit Parade label from two years ago. It's shows what COULD have been done. (This is not my video).
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Post by ironhorseapples on Jun 21, 2022 8:52:38 GMT -5
I got a tiny part of the way through disk 1. Targeted the new mixes. Some immediate thoughts:
I Get Around - Gets off to a bad start with a really noticeable and clumsy edit (or time stretch) to the vocals (Last 'get' before the instrumentation comes in. As feared, all the drive and groove of the original is severely compromised in stereo.
Surfin' Safari - An extraction mix, full of artefacts, unlistenable
Surfin' USA - The bass cuts out due to a really noticeable edit to the track (3rd bass note after 'across the USA) Between 'like' and californ-i-a there is a stupendously clumsy edit which actually affects the tempo. A genuine question, is Mark going deaf?
Switched off in disgust at this point. If one of my MA students submitted this they would lose marks, seriously.
Worse than feared.
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Post by Sam_BFC on Jun 21, 2022 8:55:02 GMT -5
What subject do you teach?
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Post by ironhorseapples on Jun 21, 2022 9:13:17 GMT -5
Music Technology /Production
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Post by sailorwailer123 on Jun 21, 2022 9:28:48 GMT -5
After giving the new mixes a couple more spins, I realise my ears weren't deceiving me when I thought things were a bit 'off'. And even then, 'off' is an understatement. These mixes are somewhat compressed, there's distortion, the EQ is funny, it's deeply inconsistent, the tracks are borderline unlistenable in many cases.
And I'm in my early to mid 20s, and I favour stereo (with the exception of Please Let Me Wonder).
Feel Flows suffers from these problems, in part, as as well. Can't help but feel pessimistic about '72 Box Set.
What's the probability that too is going to be buggered up?
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Post by ironhorseapples on Jun 21, 2022 9:42:25 GMT -5
Just as a pre-emptive measure in case this thread does descend (and I'm aware I played a part in such a thread last week), I am truly happy that people are enjoying this comp, and a little jealous. For those of us who do hear the shortcomings, be it over-compression, harsh mids, sloppy edits or poor extractions, we are allowed to voice those thoughts.
It is not a threat to anyone, or an aspersion on their listening skills.
Analytical listening does in some cases require the 'selling of one's soul'. A trade is involved, and it usually manifests as being unable to listen for pleasure. Once that analytical mindset is in place, it can't be switched off, well not in my case. The mistakes just leap out at me and dominate the experience
So at the risk of sounding supremely patronising, I'm genuinely happy people are getting enjoyment out of this, and I sort of get pleasure from your pleasure, but I am very much outside looking in.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Jun 21, 2022 10:51:09 GMT -5
No problems discussing this from a moderation standpoint, as long as it stays on track talking about the mixes and sonics of those mixes. Please, no personal attacks on Misters Boyd, Linett and Edelson. You can discuss direct quotes posted here and on podcasts, but please stay specific to the quotes being discussed. Thank you.
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fjfp
Grommet
Posts: 8
Likes: 7
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Post by fjfp on Jun 21, 2022 11:17:32 GMT -5
I came here to share this in the thread, but looks like the work has already been done for me. Thank you for the kind words, and I hope you all enjoy it!
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Post by lonesurf on Jun 21, 2022 11:25:03 GMT -5
I came here to share this in the thread, but looks like the work has already been done for me. Thank you for the kind words, and I hope you all enjoy it! Your podcast is a great listen, Freddy. Your SoS analysis was fantastic. Thank you!!!
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Post by Rick Bartlett on Jun 21, 2022 12:15:51 GMT -5
No problems discussing this from a moderation standpoint, as long as it stays on track talking about the mixes and sonics of those mixes. Please, no personal attacks on Misters Boyd, Linett and Edelson. You can discuss direct quotes posted here and on podcasts, but please stay specific to the quotes being discussed. Thank you. I may be wrong, but I did not feel like there were any 'personal' attacks from the board. If this went down at the 'other place', it would have been a real massacre. We most certainly were judging and criticizing their/his work for better or worse, but the only time it became personal is when Howie got his back up. My comments have always come from the podcasts and his own comments he himself made.
I've always been led to believe people should be accountable for their own actions and if he can't stand the feedback from the fans, then perhaps this isn't the right job for him, when he gets so 'defensive' about it. Is that a 'personal' attack? It's not meant to be, but when a 'caretaker' of the legacy throws back on the fans:
"All this anger. All this pain. Jesus. Going out to play with my kids then dinner with my wife. You guys should do the same. Life's short. Stop buggin' about records."
We are here because of those damn 'records'. Why should the fans get the blame in all of this? We are the 'record' buying public.
What will it take for them to listen?.....
Am I wrong in my opinion?
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Post by filledeplage on Jun 21, 2022 12:30:57 GMT -5
No problems discussing this from a moderation standpoint, as long as it stays on track talking about the mixes and sonics of those mixes. Please, no personal attacks on Misters Boyd, Linett and Edelson. You can discuss direct quotes posted here and on podcasts, but please stay specific to the quotes being discussed. Thank you. Personal attacks are never appropriate, i agree. But I’d just like minor clarification if it is a quote, it may be rebutted? A direct quote “opens the door” for a rebuttal. Thanks.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Jun 21, 2022 12:33:12 GMT -5
No problems discussing this from a moderation standpoint, as long as it stays on track talking about the mixes and sonics of those mixes. Please, no personal attacks on Misters Boyd, Linett and Edelson. You can discuss direct quotes posted here and on podcasts, but please stay specific to the quotes being discussed. Thank you. I may be wrong, but I did not feel like there were any 'personal' attacks from the board. If this went down at the 'other place', it would have been a real massacre. We most certainly were judging and criticizing their/his work for better or worse, but the only time it became personal is when Howie got his back up. My comments have always come from the podcasts and his own comments he himself made.
I've always been led to believe people should be accountable for their own actions and if he can't stand the feedback from the fans, then perhaps this isn't the right job for him, when he gets so 'defensive' about it. Is that a 'personal' attack? It's not meant to be, but when a 'caretaker' of the legacy throws back on the fans:
"All this anger. All this pain. Jesus. Going out to play with my kids then dinner with my wife. You guys should do the same. Life's short. Stop buggin' about records."
We are here because of those damn 'records'. Why should the fans get the blame in all of this? We are the 'record' buying public.
What will it take for them to listen?.....
Am I wrong in my opinion?
Rick, my post was not directed at anyone in particular. It is just a general reminder as we move forward in our discussions of both SoS and Feel Flows. As I said, discussing posts here and what is said publicly on podcasts is ok to discuss. Carry on!
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Jun 21, 2022 12:36:19 GMT -5
No problems discussing this from a moderation standpoint, as long as it stays on track talking about the mixes and sonics of those mixes. Please, no personal attacks on Misters Boyd, Linett and Edelson. You can discuss direct quotes posted here and on podcasts, but please stay specific to the quotes being discussed. Thank you. Personal attacks are never appropriate, i agree. But I’d just like minor clarification if it is a quote, it may be rebutted? A direct quote “opens the door” for a rebuttal. Thanks. Rebutt away.😉
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Post by Rick Bartlett on Jun 21, 2022 12:39:40 GMT -5
I may be wrong, but I did not feel like there were any 'personal' attacks from the board. If this went down at the 'other place', it would have been a real massacre. We most certainly were judging and criticizing their/his work for better or worse, but the only time it became personal is when Howie got his back up. My comments have always come from the podcasts and his own comments he himself made.
I've always been led to believe people should be accountable for their own actions and if he can't stand the feedback from the fans, then perhaps this isn't the right job for him, when he gets so 'defensive' about it. Is that a 'personal' attack? It's not meant to be, but when a 'caretaker' of the legacy throws back on the fans:
"All this anger. All this pain. Jesus. Going out to play with my kids then dinner with my wife. You guys should do the same. Life's short. Stop buggin' about records."
We are here because of those damn 'records'. Why should the fans get the blame in all of this? We are the 'record' buying public.
What will it take for them to listen?.....
Am I wrong in my opinion?
Rick, my post was not directed at anyone in particular. It is just a general reminder as we move forward in our discussions of both SoS and Feel Flows. As I said, discussing posts here and what is said publicly on podcasts is ok to discuss. Carry on! Oh sure, I understand that, and very cool your allowing 'free speech' here.
I'll continue to stand by my comments, just saying..... I'll try and pull the reins in going over and beating the 'dead horse' too, it's just been the week for it with a lot of disappointment.
I'm a bit 'upset' with the results to say the least.
As you say, 'we move forward'... I'll take a deep breath...
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Post by ironhorseapples on Jun 21, 2022 12:43:18 GMT -5
Attacking fans seems to be the modus operendi for many big access media companies now. Some, like Amazon Prime will come right on the door in attack mode. It's almost as if they know they're in the wrong and want to get in with a pre-emptive strike.
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Post by ironhorseapples on Jun 21, 2022 12:50:36 GMT -5
I came here to share this in the thread, but looks like the work has already been done for me. Thank you for the kind words, and I hope you all enjoy it! Is it you who did an alternate version of 'Wouldn't it be Nice to Live Again' some years back, with the lyric about the spiv with the jauntily angled hat?
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Post by filledeplage on Jun 21, 2022 12:55:21 GMT -5
Rick, my post was not directed at anyone in particular. It is just a general reminder as we move forward in our discussions of both SoS and Feel Flows. As I said, discussing posts here and what is said publicly on podcasts is ok to discuss. Carry on! Oh sure, I understand that, and very cool your allowing 'free speech' here.
I'll continue to stand by my comments, just saying..... I'll try and pull the reins in going over and beating the 'dead horse' too, it's just been the week for it with a lot of disappointment.
I'm a bit 'upset' with the results to say the least.
As you say, 'we move forward'... I'll take a deep breath...
Rick - from what I can see, I think you did look for the direct quotes and that is fair debate. If it was said, you may rebut it. What was said, was confounding and frustrating (and dismissive, which blew me away because most people here, take this music very seriously because we choose to invest the time to discuss it and learn from one another, on this forum.) It was confounding, because it was not a direct exchange on this forum but a joust from another one, where there is no possibility of an real exchange of ideas. If it feels unfair; I agree. But, those are the cards we have been dealt and just have to make the best of it, while trying to take the high road. And, most of us are very familiar and appreciate with Mark and Alan’s award-winning work over a long period of time. If you buy something and don’t like it, I think that is fair game and it seems that we are in the good company some really spectacular sound experts, and techs who can explain these sound aspects to the rest of us.
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Post by Rick Bartlett on Jun 21, 2022 13:13:49 GMT -5
Oh sure, I understand that, and very cool your allowing 'free speech' here.
I'll continue to stand by my comments, just saying..... I'll try and pull the reins in going over and beating the 'dead horse' too, it's just been the week for it with a lot of disappointment.
I'm a bit 'upset' with the results to say the least.
As you say, 'we move forward'... I'll take a deep breath...
Rick - from what I can see, I think you did look for the direct quotes and that is fair debate. If it was said, you may rebut it. What was said, was confounding and frustrating (and dismissive, which blew me away because most people here, take this music very seriously because we choose to invest the time to discuss it and learn from one another, on this forum.) It was confounding, because it was not a direct exchange on this forum but a joust from another one, where there is no possibility of an real exchange of ideas. If it feels unfair; I agree. But, those are the cards we have been dealt and just have to make the best of it, while trying to take the high road. And, most of us are very familiar and appreciate with Mark and Alan’s award-winning work over a long period of time. If you buy something and don’t like it, I think that is fair game and it seems that we are in the good company some really spectacular sound experts, and techs who can explain these sound aspects to the rest of us. Oh right on! And look, I probably take some of this stuff too 'personally', and I guess I do. This group and the members are not some kind of 'transaction' for me or for some of us.
They have meant everything to me, my whole lifetime of listening, learning, studying, and loving the core members and band members. They are my favorite group, but when I feel they are getting mistreated, well I feel it's my obligation to say something.
Mark and Alan's work in the past, has been exceptional.
Mark goes back to working on Brian's 88' album, and everything ever since. Look at all the wonderful albums and recordings we've had from Brian since then. Mark's early work on the initial box sets and with Alan on 'Endless Harmony' and 'Hawthorne CA' etc etc Magnificent work.
Just the concept of even recreating 'Smile' and making a re-rerecording of it, is still mind blowing to me now in 2022. They did it! Good work deserves appropriate praise, but if the work is not good, well, it should also be equally acknowledged. I have no reason to have personal attacks either on any of these people, I don't know them personally, but I will judge them on the attitude of their work, because it's important that Brian, Mike, Carl, Al, Dennis, Bruce
get the respect they deserve.
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fjfp
Grommet
Posts: 8
Likes: 7
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Post by fjfp on Jun 21, 2022 13:20:26 GMT -5
I came here to share this in the thread, but looks like the work has already been done for me. Thank you for the kind words, and I hope you all enjoy it! Is it you who did an alternate version of 'Wouldn't it be Nice to Live Again' some years back, with the lyric about the spiv with the jauntily angled hat? Haha, alas, no. My claim to fame back on SS were the 'Freddie covers', which is your display picture is anything to go by, you were playing around with.
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Post by Bruce’s Shorts on Jun 21, 2022 17:49:11 GMT -5
Just in time for Sounds Of Summer: Fender has announced their very own commemorative “Pet Sounds Telecaster!” Get it while supplies last!
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Departed
Former Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2022 21:30:44 GMT -5
If I could play a single chord in which you could hear every string I would buy a new guitar. Alas it's just not my thing. Look forward to all of you getting that guitar and recording some great rock and roll.
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Post by Bruce’s Shorts on Jun 21, 2022 21:46:34 GMT -5
If I could play a single chord in which you could hear every string I would buy a new guitar. Alas it's just not my thing. Look forward to all of you getting that guitar and recording some great rock and roll. I was joking with that post. It’s not actually a Pet Sounds Telecaster …. It just looks like one They might as well market it as exactly that though, as both Carl and Al occasionally used Teles.
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Post by jay on Jun 21, 2022 23:03:00 GMT -5
What's going on with Mike's vocal on the last verse of Shut Down?
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Post by ironhorseapples on Jun 22, 2022 4:37:59 GMT -5
What's going on with Mike's vocal on the last verse of Shut Down? His overdub has been moved wildly out of synch. Sloppy beyond words. I've had the opportunity to listen to more tracks. I'll focus on some positives. I did really like what Mark has done with the background vocals on Wild Honey. It sounds like he's either doubled them up, or used some ADT. It is slightly sterile as it sounds like he's copied and pasted the same set of backgrounds over the whole song, but I can live with that. The new stereo mix of Heroes and Villains is a vast improvement over the last stereo mix he did. I really like this one. If the whole set was on a par with that I'd have fewer complaints. The new mix of Do You Wanna Dance is also an improvement over the ghastly 2012 mix, however, as other's have noticed, the compression really diminishes the original groove of the mono as exemplified in the rather subdued timpani. Really, really love the new mix of Be True to your School, oh, hang on, it's the original mono. Joking aside, try contrasting that track to some of the new stereo mixes. If you can't hear how mono mixes really pack a punch, then I'm afraid I can't help you. These things were designed to leap right out of a small radio, and Brian was a master at it. That's why I love the original mono mixes, not for purist reasons, but because they sound awesome. As any good record producer will tell you, a vital part of the mix is the 'groove'. In the case of these new mixes, that groove rarely survives the transition to stereo, as it was built into the depth of the mix, and adding width compromises it. This ties in with Brian's well known complaints about stereo. Early stereo was usually LCR, (the only panning option on early boards was hard left, centre, or hard right, as demonstrated in the original stereo mix of the Shut Down Vol 2 LP). As many of the earlier backing tracks exist on only two or three tracks, Mark has been forced to pan the tracks containing the bass and kick over to one side on order to create a stereo field. In many cases the groove is defined by the bass and kick, and having them over to one side diminishes their drive and momentum. This is why it has been standard practice for many years to centre the bass and kick. (But also this is down to some peculiar quirks of vinyl LPs and needle skipping).
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Post by esqeditor on Jun 22, 2022 21:01:18 GMT -5
I think it would be interesting to schedule a Zoom for all of us to meet and share our thoughts face to face.
If you like the idea, I can reach out to the team that put the collection together and invite any of them to participate. I'm not one to discuss mixes, but I can speak to the band's history.
What do you all think?
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