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Post by aquarius on Feb 7, 2019 1:02:38 GMT -5
Well, I didn't say avant-garde type artist. I am not Sean Hagan. I just meant "respected niche artist", I guess. I'm not as fussy about terminology as other people are. Sorry.
Respected niche artist are on small labels, and that is really what I am talking about: labels. The business.
It's about commercial expectations, because that is what I mean by indie label vs major label: I'm not talking about some white American subculture that I know little about.
I simply think that Brian is kind of clueless with what's in style; he wants the fame that goes along with being a major label artist; he wants to please a maximum amount of people; but he doesn't have what it takes. He has something different.
So, he and his wife and managers decide they want to market him as an older adult contemporary artist, say, or emphasize his psycho-dramas because that narrative sells. It is absolutely clear that they have done this. It is also absolutely clear that this is not exactly where his muse is.
He subverts his muse to meet some market demand, and he needs someone to do that. Bennett, who has a more modern pop/rock sense with enough retro flair to make it work or Joe Thomas, who is sugary adult contemporary, mellow and faux-warm. Brian probably likes that stuff. But it's not what he produces when he's left on his own. At least it never has been since the mid-seventies and his whole career is testament to that. Paley was making quirky, unabashedly retro stuff, and Brian obviously responded to that but Melinda (and Carl) put the nix on that, because they thought it wasn't commercial.
Now to be clear, I'm not saying that Brian is necessarily put-upon. I think he wants what he gets. And I actually like the Joe Thomas stuff. I think if you cut it down to 12 tracks, and maybe tweak the sequence, it's a Pet Sounds for septuagenarians and a great success. I know I'm in the minority, but anyway... I just think it's clear that it's Brian filtered though Joe Thomas. And maybe some of those songs are actually just Joe Thomas with a seasoning of Brian. That's OK, though. It's also a well-known fact that Brian is restless artist and gets bored with things and wants to move on: and this presents a problem as with the way records are made nowadays, someone may have to finish his stuff (Thomas, or Bennett, Darian and band, or whatever). And major labels clearly work on a different business model than they did in the sixties. There's this great wait period between creation and release.
When Brian produces an Imagination or No Pier Pressure without a lot of outside help, I'll consider my point refuted.
When I listen to the songs that he's written on his own (songs like "Message Man" or "Oxygen to the Brain", or "Believe In Yourself" or even the cover of "I'm Into Something Good"), I hear a pop artist but not a commercial artist.
And I'd kind of like to hear what he did without a filter, or with a filter that he really worked well with, like Paley, without the expectations of a major label and the obligatory tour and marketing and so on. Even if it is just covers. And the idea of him recording a song quickly when inspiration strikes him and releasing it online a few times a year is exactly the kind of thing that I think would be most interesting in this last stage of his career. And that is what I meant by "indie artist". I don't mean "post punk" artist or whatever: I would have written that if I had.
On the other hand, who knows? He's a hard guy to pin down, and what is true today is not true tomorrow and will be different still further down the line.
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Post by John Manning on Feb 7, 2019 1:10:17 GMT -5
Over the years Brian has contributed to a handful of indie acts’ productions, some of which have been stellar. Not long before NPP he contributed backing vocals to track Any Emotions by Mini Mansions:
My fave was Emile Haynie and Andrew Wyatt’s Falling Apart, a stunning track:
Before that there had been his vocals for Richard Ashcroft’s track Nature is the Law:
When I heard that NPP was set to feature a handful of tracks made with other, contemporary artists, I really hoped it would be stuff along these lines – an eclectic line-up of good, creative, somewhat avant-garde indie tracks that showed off Brian’s gift for vocal harmony arrangements, in a context of modern music produced by respected acts, who clearly were influenced by his body of work.
I love about 80% of NPP, including Saturday Night and I Guess You Had To Be There, but I felt a tad deflated that it was a bunch of pop collaborations rather than non-mainstream ventures.
Wonder how the Lana Del Ray track might have sounded?
More recently there was the Janelle Monáe track Dirty Computer which featured Brian on backing vocals. Another fine departure:
Would love to have had more of this kind of thing.
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Post by monolithic on Feb 7, 2019 5:06:28 GMT -5
I'll probably get crucified for this, but I'll say it anyway. I think any new music and/ or album from Brian now would have the best chance of working if Scott Bennet were involved. But we all know why this can't and won't happen. No - you should not get crucified. Bennett committed a crime, was convicted, did his time, and should be re-integrated. That is the point of incarnation and probation/ parole; to rehabilitate a person who committed a crime to be re-integrated into society. That is the justice system. Maybe he got substance/alcohol abuse treatment. Maybe he got other therapy. He is a musician/songwriter. I am not of the mind that wrongdoing excludes a person from re-joining society for the rest of your life. [Look at Bill Clinton. A sitting president whose poll numbers rose after the scandal with Monica broke.] Is there forgiveness after rehabilitation? All things being equal - I would prefer Brian work with his original band. It makes sense to me because whatever he writes seems to be in that BB member voice construction - with other voices (who are great vocalists in their own right) and not the originals. But that is not my choice. Sure, but people don't tend to go back to the jobs that they held prior to the crime. And certainly not if the crime occurred when they essentially on duty.
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Departed
Former Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 5:22:03 GMT -5
In regards to Scott Bennett my opinion is this:
If people choose to work with a guy who'd do what he did, that's their business. But as a fan I'd hope Brian's team was better than that. What's more, if they had any common sense they'd avoid any association with a person like that for no other reason than the bad PR (to say nothing of the ethics of it.) This kind of thing should be especially obvious not to risk nowadays in the post MeToo era. It's just not a smart thing to do.
This isn't a petty victimless crime here. What he did could leave serious psychological damage.
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Post by The Cap'n on Feb 7, 2019 8:27:26 GMT -5
Well, I didn't say avant-garde type artist. I am not Sean Hagan. I just meant "respected niche artist", I guess. I'm not as fussy about terminology as other people are. Sorry. Respected niche artist are on small labels, and that is really what I am talking about: labels. The business. It's about commercial expectations, because that is what I mean by indie label vs major label: I'm not talking about some white American subculture that I know little about. ... When Brian produces an Imagination or No Pier Pressure without a lot of outside help, I'll consider my point refuted. When I listen to the songs that he's written on his own (songs like "Message Man" or "Oxygen to the Brain", or "Believe In Yourself" or even the cover of "I'm Into Something Good"), I hear a pop artist but not a commercial artist. And I'd kind of like to hear what he did without a filter, or with a filter that he really worked well with, like Paley, without the expectations of a major label and the obligatory tour and marketing and so on. Even if it is just covers. And the idea of him recording a song quickly when inspiration strikes him and releasing it online a few times a year is exactly the kind of thing that I think would be most interesting in this last stage of his career. And that is what I meant by "indie artist". I don't mean "post punk" artist or whatever: I would have written that if I had. Re the first part of your quote above - thanks. That's why I was asking for clarification: "indie" has a lot of connotations, and I just wanted to understand what you had in mind.
Re the second part, I don't think it's likely he can or would produce anything on his own these days, either an Imagination/NPP or a Love You. While the results can seem filtered, I think it's more like realized or fleshed out. Granted, it's realized in a way a lot of people don't much like, but I don't think it's a matter of taking something that would have otherwise been better ... just unfinished.
Re post punk, not sure what that relates to. It's hard to imagine anyone thinking he's that.
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Post by The Cap'n on Feb 7, 2019 8:30:03 GMT -5
Over the years Brian has contributed to a handful of indie acts’ productions, some of which have been stellar. Definitely true. Though I think the best of his contributions in the past 15 years or so was actually to the least "indie" act of all, Neil Goddamn Diamond. "Delirious Love" was fantastic.
That said, I agree with you: several of those on NPP (which I really liked overall) and others you mentioned were really good stuff.
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Post by kds on Feb 7, 2019 8:33:18 GMT -5
In regards to Scott Bennett my opinion is this: If people choose to work with a guy who'd do what he did, that's their business. But as a fan I'd hope Brian's team was better than that. What's more, if they had any common sense they'd avoid any association with a person like that for no other reason than the bad PR (to say nothing of the ethics of it.) This kind of thing should be especially obvious not to risk nowadays in the post MeToo era. It's just not a smart thing to do. This isn't a petty victimless crime here. What he did could leave serious psychological damage. The Beach Boys in general are not very good at PR, but I don't think there's any chance that Brian's camp would associate with Scott Bennett ever again. It really wouldn't be worth the negative PR to bring back a sideman, regardless of whether or not he cowrote one of Brian's more popular solo albums.
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Post by The Cap'n on Feb 7, 2019 8:36:37 GMT -5
And really, what is the point? That work from TLOS wasn't some kind of mega-hit revenue generator, it was a critically respected album loved by many hardcore fans. That kind of result isn't worth the negative PR that, say, a quadruple platinum album's collaborator might have been.
(That's not to say anything about the controversial question that probably belongs in other parts of the board. It's just the practical aspects of such a move.)
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 7, 2019 11:11:25 GMT -5
No - you should not get crucified. Bennett committed a crime, was convicted, did his time, and should be re-integrated. That is the point of incarnation and probation/ parole; to rehabilitate a person who committed a crime to be re-integrated into society. That is the justice system. Maybe he got substance/alcohol abuse treatment. Maybe he got other therapy. He is a musician/songwriter. I am not of the mind that wrongdoing excludes a person from re-joining society for the rest of your life. [Look at Bill Clinton. A sitting president whose poll numbers rose after the scandal with Monica broke.] Is there forgiveness after rehabilitation? All things being equal - I would prefer Brian work with his original band. It makes sense to me because whatever he writes seems to be in that BB member voice construction - with other voices (who are great vocalists in their own right) and not the originals. But that is not my choice. Sure, but people don't tend to go back to the jobs that they held prior to the crime. And certainly not if the crime occurred when they essentially on duty. It all depends on the occupation and the risk to society and the ability to be tracked by probation. If the job was related to the criminal activity - say working in a TV warehouse and stealing TV's from the owner, then probably not. But say it is a plumber or carpenter, there is no reason that they would not go back to the trade where they have experience. The issue raised was "working with Brian" - that does not mean "touring with Brian" - which is where he got himself into trouble. You can always look to where there was a history of good performance, as a possibility, with low risk, and not look at the area (behavior while touring) with higher risk, for that work.
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Post by monolithic on Feb 8, 2019 4:24:45 GMT -5
Sure, but people don't tend to go back to the jobs that they held prior to the crime. And certainly not if the crime occurred when they essentially on duty. It all depends on the occupation and the risk to society and the ability to be tracked by probation. If the job was related to the criminal activity - say working in a TV warehouse and stealing TV's from the owner, then probably not. But say it is a plumber or carpenter, there is no reason that they would not go back to the trade where they have experience. The issue raised was "working with Brian" - that does not mean "touring with Brian" - which is where he got himself into trouble. You can always look to where there was a history of good performance, as a possibility, with low risk, and not look at the area (behavior while touring) with higher risk, for that work. Sure, they can go back to that trade. But they presumably wouldnt go back to working for the exact same company under whose employ they had committed the crime. Anyway, it is extremely unlikely to happen so there we are...
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Post by AGD on Feb 8, 2019 7:21:03 GMT -5
Over the years Brian has contributed to a handful of indie acts’ productions, some of which have been stellar. Um... the use of the word "production" here is somewhat misleading: Brian's not produced, or co-produced, anyone other than himself or The Beach Boys since The Wilsons over twenty years ago. Granted he's done a truckload of bvs since the turn of the century, but IMO very few have been "stellar": top of my head, "Nature Is The Law", "Delirious Love" and "You Are So Beautiful". Something like, say, "Chockabeck" we only know it's Brian because he's listed in the credits, not because he's particularly evident on the track.
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Post by John Manning on Feb 8, 2019 13:56:35 GMT -5
Over the years Brian has contributed to a handful of indie acts’ productions, some of which have been stellar. Um... the use of the word "production" here is somewhat misleading: Brian's not produced, or co-produced, anyone other than himself or The Beach Boys since The Wilsons over twenty years ago. Granted he's done a truckload of bvs since the turn of the century, but IMO very few have been "stellar": top of my head, "Nature Is The Law", "Delirious Love" and "You Are So Beautiful". Something like, say, "Chockabeck" we only know it's Brian because he's listed in the credits, not because he's particularly evident on the track. Gawd, I hope this equine flu outbreak is over soon!!!!! Get some real work done 😂
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Post by AGD on Feb 9, 2019 5:24:44 GMT -5
Just call me... Gadfly Man !!!
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Post by George Faulkner on Feb 21, 2019 11:27:52 GMT -5
If I had anything to do with it I'd get back to the original industry formula. Release the occasional single. See where it leads.
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 22, 2019 9:36:51 GMT -5
If I had anything to do with it I'd get back to the original industry formula. Release the occasional single. See where it leads. A single. Yes - test the waters. An album is a lot of pressure. Or, re-release (a real one) something with Carl's vocals... Maybe a "Don't Fight The Sea" single for Surfrider... Connect it to some raise-awareness campaign. A single - what a great idea.
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Post by Autotune on Feb 23, 2019 19:41:57 GMT -5
If this is the embryo for Brian’s future studio output, I’d say bring it on!
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kirkk
Dude/Dudette
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Favorite Album: Pet Sounds, SMiLE, Sunflower... but I could go on and on...
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Post by kirkk on Feb 23, 2019 20:41:59 GMT -5
If this is the embryo for Brian’s future studio output, I’d say bring it on! Jeeze, I HAVE been out of The Beach Boys loop - I had no idea Brian had done “I’m Broke” in concert! Though if that clip is any indication, I hope they rehearsed it more before playing it again
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Post by monolithic on Feb 24, 2019 2:03:49 GMT -5
If this is the embryo for Brian’s future studio output, I’d say bring it on! Jeeze, I HAVE been out of The Beach Boys loop - I had no idea Brian had done “I’m Broke” in concert! Though if that clip is any indication, I hope they rehearsed it more before playing it again As far as I know, that's the only time that I'm Broke has been attempted...which is perhaps unsurprising.
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