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Post by jk on Apr 9, 2024 3:49:07 GMT -5
I am a singer, a gospel singer I sing for people, I sing for pleasure Only a dreamer, who came from nowhere Sail on, wail on Sailor Over the cities, I see the rooftops To sooth my poor throat, I popped a cough drop (or "To soothe my poor soul, I thought a whole lot") Often frightened, Unenlightened Sail on, wail on Sailor Sail on, wail on Sailor Just like my mamma said, Ray there's a way But you gotta get yourself out of that ghetto today You might stumble, you could fumble When you're down low don't feel under And the thunder and the lightning Aren't as frightening when you're coked out Heartbreak city ain't so pretty When you're down and nitty gritty Sail on, wail on Sailor Sail on, wail on sailor Sail on, wail on sailor Goodness, that's a bit of an eye-opener. Thank you. Yes, Jack's version is a vast improvement! I must admit I like Jack, not that I ever met him. The man had flair. Maybe the Dutch connection helps.
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Post by E on Apr 9, 2024 4:09:38 GMT -5
Yeah. I'll stick with Rieley during this period some great songs, with or without his involvement: Sailor, Tree, the whole Saga, Trader, Flows, Road, Die, Disney Girls, Cuddle Up, Marcella, Surf's Up... His Western Justice album isn't bad either
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Post by AGD on Apr 9, 2024 5:59:25 GMT -5
The title track. I can just imagine the BB doing this in 1973... maybe Dennis on lead.
And the opening song:
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 9, 2024 7:40:55 GMT -5
With a few exceptions ("Tree," "Trader") Rieley's lyrics read as ridiculous on the page. He was part of the post-Dylan generation of rock songwriters that equated mixing big words, abstractions, and participles with profundity. To be frank, VDP was also guilty of this -- although he's more self-aware and humorous -- and of course Dylan too, at his most pretentious. A lot of times when I tire of all the '60s and '70s "song poets" I'll put on a Leonard Cohen record (e.g. "Seems So Long Ago, Nancy") and let out a grateful sigh at the work of a real poet. Homey, familiar words, chosen with precision to sustain ideas and metaphors of great clarity and genuine literary and historical resonance. But they can't all be Leonard Cohen and I don't really hold it against Jack Rieley for not being on that level. No one else was. Even Leonard wasn't always. Missing the obvious one, "Sail On, Sailor": his lyric blows the original/alternate (below) away. And it's 100% accessible. I am a singer, a gospel singer I sing for people, I sing for pleasure Only a dreamer, who came from nowhere Sail on, wail on Sailor
Over the cities, I see the rooftops To sooth my poor throat, I popped a cough drop (or "To soothe my poor soul, I thought a whole lot") Often frightened, Unenlightened Sail on, wail on Sailor Sail on, wail on Sailor Just like my mamma said, Ray there's a way But you gotta get yourself out of that ghetto today You might stumble, you could fumble When you're down low don't feel under And the thunder and the lightning Aren't as frightening when you're coked out Heartbreak city ain't so pretty When you're down and nitty gritty Sail on, wail on Sailor Sail on, wail on sailor Sail on, wail on sailor Andrew - wow - I had never seen this lyrics. I think they are dreadful and not a good fit for the BBs. Incompatible for someone you are working for as opposed to being a solo artist, who wishes the big band would cover his/her stuff. Sail on Sailor's released lyrics gets into the "big ocean" with no view of land, not the surfing theme where the surfer can see the shore and there is a distance limit. This is "Land, Ho" territory after days or weeks at sea. It's a whole other vastness addressed with man v. the sea. It better fits their business model as well. Dealing with the whole drug thing..."white puff...black puff" was about the limit and was less obvious. Did they need to sing about coke? There was no single. They couldn't release Holland as it was. SOS was not a hit, but enduring, which might have more actual value, as a cultural staple ending up in film.
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Post by Al S on Apr 9, 2024 8:19:30 GMT -5
Jack's lyrics are obviously much better although:
"To sooth my poor throat, I popped a cough drop"
should have been retained as is or with a slight contextual tweak;
"To sooth my poor throat, I sucked on a Fisherman's Friend"
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 9, 2024 8:45:07 GMT -5
Jack's lyrics are obviously much better although: "To sooth my poor throat, I popped a cough drop" should have been retained as is or with a slight contextual tweak; "To sooth my poor throat, I sucked on a Fisherman's Friend" OMG - 😂
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Post by AGD on Apr 9, 2024 12:22:21 GMT -5
Missing the obvious one, "Sail On, Sailor": his lyric blows the original/alternate (below) away. And it's 100% accessible. I am a singer, a gospel singer I sing for people, I sing for pleasure Only a dreamer, who came from nowhere Sail on, wail on Sailor
Over the cities, I see the rooftops To sooth my poor throat, I popped a cough drop (or "To soothe my poor soul, I thought a whole lot") Often frightened, Unenlightened Sail on, wail on Sailor Sail on, wail on Sailor Just like my mamma said, Ray there's a way But you gotta get yourself out of that ghetto today You might stumble, you could fumble When you're down low don't feel under And the thunder and the lightning Aren't as frightening when you're coked out Heartbreak city ain't so pretty When you're down and nitty gritty Sail on, wail on Sailor Sail on, wail on sailor Sail on, wail on sailor Andrew - wow - I had never seen this lyrics. I think they are dreadful and not a good fit for the BBs. Incompatible for someone you are working for as opposed to being a solo artist, who wishes the big band would cover his/her stuff. Sail on Sailor's released lyrics gets into the "big ocean" with no view of land, not the surfing theme where the surfer can see the shore and there is a distance limit. This is "Land, Ho" territory after days or weeks at sea. It's a whole other vastness addressed with man v. the sea. It better fits their business model as well. Dealing with the whole drug thing..."white puff...black puff" was about the limit and was less obvious. Did they need to sing about coke? There was no single. They couldn't release Holland as it was. SOS was not a hit, but enduring, which might have more actual value, as a cultural staple ending up in film. Ray Kennedy insists those are his original lyrics. Except for the title, of course.
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Post by AGD on Apr 9, 2024 12:27:25 GMT -5
The thing about "SO,S" that works for me is the unity of the whole thing: the lyric, the melody, the arrangement... all of it.
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Post by Mikie on Apr 9, 2024 15:57:51 GMT -5
And Sunflower lacked what every successful album must have, a single. There were three U.S. singles from Sunflower. But you probably knew that. Good luck finding a stock copy of "Cool, Cool Water". www.bellagio10452.com/70ssingles.html
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Moon Dawg Vol II
Grommet
Formerly known as "Moon Dawg"
Posts: 49
Likes: 61
Favorite Album: Surf's Up
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Post by Moon Dawg Vol II on Apr 9, 2024 17:08:34 GMT -5
Also, for all the talk of him being a great manager… Was he really? Was he? People like to talk about all the work he did from August 1970 to August 1971 when “Surfs Up” released… but he was their manager for two additional years after that. Two not particularly successful years either. “So Tough” was (at least compared to Surfs Up) a complete failure that couldn’t even crack the top 50 of the billboard charts and produced zero charting singles. “Holland” is seen as a bit of a High Point for the group now, 50 years later, but at the time it was a completely ridiculous side quest that did not lead to a successful album, and that cost them millions and millions of dollars in today’s money. In 1973 that album… Did not produce a hit single. Did not generate much more interest in the current group, certainly was not a money maker for them or their label, and led to them pretty much not recording anything substantial for another three years. And for how well their live shows were sounding at the time, my understanding is even throughout 72 and 73 they were still losing money on those shows. Sure, compared to other terrible people in this group’s history, his “bad deeds “ are relatively tiny, and you could maybe are you are equaled out by his great contributions to the music itself. But he is certainly not a figure that needs much defending. Hang on for a second. The group's previous three studio albums had peaked at 126,68,151. The next three, with Rieley on board, made 29,50,36. Moderately successful albums, not flops. Maybe not the chartbusters they were hoping for, but the group was alive in the marketplace. Another flop like FRIENDS or SUNFLOWER would have sunk them in 1971. "Sail On Sailor" was a radio hit, a notable tune people heard and liked, despite its #79 chart peak in 73. Rieley had his flaws, but his advice re albums and live performances arguably saved The Beach Boys commercially. The Rieley strategies may have paid even greater dividends had they kept him employed after 1973. But again, there were valid reasons to fire him.
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Post by lonelysummer on Apr 9, 2024 22:21:34 GMT -5
A lot of the data is ambiguous. You could just as easily say that he delivered them a gold record (Beach Boys In Concert), their most successful new release since Pet Sounds. And both Surf's Up and Holland could be called hit albums (Holland was even certified in the UK). Of their post-Pet Sounds, pre-Kokomo studio albums, only 15 Big Ones was a bigger hit than Surf's Up or Holland. (Of course a complicating factor is that both Holland and In Concert -- and Carl/Pet -- were double LPs and thus counted as double sales.) As for the lack of a hit single, well, Tree and Mt Vernon aside, he wasn't actually making the music. “In Concert” was actually after he was dismissed from my understanding. And pushing the album to focus far more on their 60s material, which happened after it went from a single album to a double album, was also unlikely an idea to have come from Rieley. I’d argue that for all the success that people like to put on Jack Rieley, James William guercio should get just as much credit. guercio Got them to actually perform the shows the fans wanted. Are we talking the traveling jukebox? Casual fans wanted that, yes, but not those who came onboard with Surf's Up, CATP and Holland.
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Post by bessieboporbach on Apr 10, 2024 14:40:04 GMT -5
Also, for all the talk of him being a great manager… Was he really? Was he? People like to talk about all the work he did from August 1970 to August 1971 when “Surfs Up” released… but he was their manager for two additional years after that. Two not particularly successful years either. “So Tough” was (at least compared to Surfs Up) a complete failure that couldn’t even crack the top 50 of the billboard charts and produced zero charting singles. “Holland” is seen as a bit of a High Point for the group now, 50 years later, but at the time it was a completely ridiculous side quest that did not lead to a successful album, and that cost them millions and millions of dollars in today’s money. In 1973 that album… Did not produce a hit single. Did not generate much more interest in the current group, certainly was not a money maker for them or their label, and led to them pretty much not recording anything substantial for another three years. And for how well their live shows were sounding at the time, my understanding is even throughout 72 and 73 they were still losing money on those shows. Sure, compared to other terrible people in this group’s history, his “bad deeds “ are relatively tiny, and you could maybe are you are equaled out by his great contributions to the music itself. But he is certainly not a figure that needs much defending. Hang on for a second. The group's previous three studio albums had peaked at 126,68,151. The next three, with Rieley on board, made 29,50,36. Moderately successful albums, not flops. Maybe not the chartbusters they were hoping for, but the group was alive in the marketplace. Another flop like FRIENDS or SUNFLOWER would have sunk them in 1971. "Sail On Sailor" was a radio hit, a notable tune people heard and liked, despite its #79 chart peak in 73. Rieley had his flaws, but his advice re albums and live performances arguably saved The Beach Boys commercially. The Rieley strategies may have paid even greater dividends had they kept him employed after 1973. But again, there were valid reasons to fire him. I agree with most of what you've said, and made a similar point upthread, though I referred to In Concert rather than So Tough: it's important to remember that because So Tough was a double LP set, every sale counted double in terms of units, and the sales were presumably also helped at least slightly by the fact that it was priced as a single LP. So the peak chart position of 50 is a bit misleading. The number of copies it sold is comparable to Friends, 20/20, Sunflower, or Love You and had it been a single LP, its chart position would have been more like those . Surf's Up and Holland both sold substantially more.
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 10, 2024 15:55:42 GMT -5
Hang on for a second. The group's previous three studio albums had peaked at 126,68,151. The next three, with Rieley on board, made 29,50,36. Moderately successful albums, not flops. Maybe not the chartbusters they were hoping for, but the group was alive in the marketplace. Another flop like FRIENDS or SUNFLOWER would have sunk them in 1971. "Sail On Sailor" was a radio hit, a notable tune people heard and liked, despite its #79 chart peak in 73. Rieley had his flaws, but his advice re albums and live performances arguably saved The Beach Boys commercially. The Rieley strategies may have paid even greater dividends had they kept him employed after 1973. But again, there were valid reasons to fire him. I agree with most of what you've said, and made a similar point upthread, though I referred to In Concert rather than So Tough: it's important to remember that because So Tough was a double LP set, every sale counted double in terms of units, and the sales were presumably also helped at least slightly by the fact that it was priced as a single LP. So the peak chart position of 50 is a bit misleading. The number of copies it sold is comparable to Friends, 20/20, Sunflower, or Love You and had it been a single LP, its chart position would have been more like those . Surf's Up and Holland both sold substantially more. So Tough would have been the perfect place for Dennis' tracks to go, since there were only 8 tracks on it and had room for at least 4 more and they might have ramped up the sales numbers. The band had bought back rights to some of their work and wanted to give the fans some of the back catalog and the reason it was Pet Sounds, was because it was not Smile, which Brian blocked. And there were still announcements that Smile's release was imminent. YNAMTSA was not a good idea as a single. Marcella had a better shot at being the headliner with a greater punch coming through the speakers. There was no increase in price for the bonus album.
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Post by jay on Apr 10, 2024 16:35:26 GMT -5
With a few exceptions ("Tree," "Trader") Rieley's lyrics read as ridiculous on the page. He was part of the post-Dylan generation of rock songwriters that equated mixing big words, abstractions, and participles with profundity. To be frank, VDP was also guilty of this -- although he's more self-aware and humorous -- and of course Dylan too, at his most pretentious. A lot of times when I tire of all the '60s and '70s "song poets" I'll put on a Leonard Cohen record (e.g. "Seems So Long Ago, Nancy") and let out a grateful sigh at the work of a real poet. Homey, familiar words, chosen with precision to sustain ideas and metaphors of great clarity and genuine literary and historical resonance. But they can't all be Leonard Cohen and I don't really hold it against Jack Rieley for not being on that level. No one else was. Even Leonard wasn't always. Missing the obvious one, "Sail On, Sailor": his lyric blows the original/alternate (below) away. And it's 100% accessible. I am a singer, a gospel singer I sing for people, I sing for pleasure Only a dreamer, who came from nowhere Sail on, wail on Sailor
Over the cities, I see the rooftops To sooth my poor throat, I popped a cough drop (or "To soothe my poor soul, I thought a whole lot") Often frightened, Unenlightened Sail on, wail on Sailor Sail on, wail on Sailor Just like my mamma said, Ray there's a way But you gotta get yourself out of that ghetto today You might stumble, you could fumble When you're down low don't feel under And the thunder and the lightning Aren't as frightening when you're coked out Heartbreak city ain't so pretty When you're down and nitty gritty Sail on, wail on Sailor Sail on, wail on sailor Sail on, wail on sailor I thought VDP wrote the final, released lyrics?
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Post by WillJC on Apr 10, 2024 16:40:31 GMT -5
Missing the obvious one, "Sail On, Sailor": his lyric blows the original/alternate (below) away. And it's 100% accessible. I am a singer, a gospel singer I sing for people, I sing for pleasure Only a dreamer, who came from nowhere Sail on, wail on Sailor
Over the cities, I see the rooftops To sooth my poor throat, I popped a cough drop (or "To soothe my poor soul, I thought a whole lot") Often frightened, Unenlightened Sail on, wail on Sailor Sail on, wail on Sailor Just like my mamma said, Ray there's a way But you gotta get yourself out of that ghetto today You might stumble, you could fumble When you're down low don't feel under And the thunder and the lightning Aren't as frightening when you're coked out Heartbreak city ain't so pretty When you're down and nitty gritty Sail on, wail on Sailor Sail on, wail on sailor Sail on, wail on sailor I thought VDP wrote the final, released lyrics? Van Dyke didn't write any lyrics in any version besides the title.
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Post by jay on Apr 11, 2024 3:06:43 GMT -5
According to him he did. He's also credited.
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Post by AGD on Apr 11, 2024 5:08:26 GMT -5
According to him he did. He's also credited. Yet to see or read an interview with him where he claims anything bar the title.
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Post by SMiLE-Holland on Apr 11, 2024 7:13:49 GMT -5
And Sunflower lacked what every successful album must have, a single. There were three U.S. singles from Sunflower. But you probably knew that. Good luck finding a stock copy of "Cool, Cool Water". www.bellagio10452.com/70ssingles.htmlFour, right? 2/70 Bro-Rep 0894 Add Some Music To Your Day/Susie Cincinnatti 5/70 Bro-Rep 0929 Slip On Through/This Whole World 10/70 Bro-Rep 0957 Tears In The Morning/It's About Time 3/71 Bro-Rep 0998 Cool, Cool Water/Forever
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Post by jay on Apr 11, 2024 8:10:13 GMT -5
According to him he did. He's also credited. Yet to see or read an interview with him where he claims anything bar the title. I can't remember exactly where, but I read a quote from him saying that after listening to the full demo tape, it was clear to him that he contributed most of the final lyric. It was right around the time that the box set came out. I think he suggested that the full tape is quite longer than what was used, and I think the indication was that his contribution is the portion we haven't heard. I'll try to hunt the quote down.
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Post by WillJC on Apr 11, 2024 8:21:05 GMT -5
Yet to see or read an interview with him where he claims anything bar the title. I can't remember exactly where, but I read a quote from him saying that after listening to the full demo tape, it was clear to him that he contributed most of the final lyric. It was right around the time that the box set came out. I think he suggested that the full tape is quite longer than what was used, and I think the indication was that his contribution is the portion we haven't heard. I'll try to hunt the quote down. You're misremembering. Pretty sure I know what you're referring to here and it was at least a couple of decades ago, making no mention of writing any other lyrics: "On the tape (I gave my only copy to David Berson, Mr. Ostin's assistant), it's clear from the contents that I authored the words (and the musical intervals to) "Sail On Sail On Sailor". It's also clear that I composed the chords to the bridge, played them, and taught them to Brian. Ecstatic, Mr. Ostin immediately messengered this tape (or a copy of it) to Amsterdam, and the Beach Boys were instructed to slap words on the verses and deliver it, as a pre-condition for their album's release.When the song was delivered back to WB, it was designated as the single for the album. My name appeared as co-author on that first issue copy, with Brian's. After Ray Kennedy's lawsuit (claiming authorship of the lyrics), my name and participation diminished, and in some ensuing cases, I've been given no royalties or credit at all. I understand that there was a general "feeding frenzy" around the tune's lyrics, as the Beach Boys regrouped back in L.A. I have no idea how many people may have been at those final vocal sessions, now claiming additional credit. That's none of my business. All I can attest to is my seminal contribution to "Sail On Sailor", and the authorship of that famous chorus." FYI, the full recording is only about 20 seconds longer than what was released.
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Post by Mikie on Apr 11, 2024 8:59:06 GMT -5
Four, right? 2/70 Bro-Rep 0894 Add Some Music To Your Day/Susie Cincinnatti 5/70 Bro-Rep 0929 Slip On Through/This Whole World 10/70 Bro-Rep 0957 Tears In The Morning/It's About Time 3/71 Bro-Rep 0998 Cool, Cool Water/Forever That's right! AGD might want to correct the spelling of "Cincinnati" on Bellagio when he gets a chance.
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Post by jay on Apr 11, 2024 9:21:30 GMT -5
I can't remember exactly where, but I read a quote from him saying that after listening to the full demo tape, it was clear to him that he contributed most of the final lyric. It was right around the time that the box set came out. I think he suggested that the full tape is quite longer than what was used, and I think the indication was that his contribution is the portion we haven't heard. I'll try to hunt the quote down. You're misremembering. Pretty sure I know what you're referring to here and it was at least a couple of decades ago, making no mention of writing any other lyrics: "On the tape (I gave my only copy to David Berson, Mr. Ostin's assistant), it's clear from the contents that I authored the words (and the musical intervals to) "Sail On Sail On Sailor". It's also clear that I composed the chords to the bridge, played them, and taught them to Brian. Ecstatic, Mr. Ostin immediately messengered this tape (or a copy of it) to Amsterdam, and the Beach Boys were instructed to slap words on the verses and deliver it, as a pre-condition for their album's release.When the song was delivered back to WB, it was designated as the single for the album. My name appeared as co-author on that first issue copy, with Brian's. After Ray Kennedy's lawsuit (claiming authorship of the lyrics), my name and participation diminished, and in some ensuing cases, I've been given no royalties or credit at all. I understand that there was a general "feeding frenzy" around the tune's lyrics, as the Beach Boys regrouped back in L.A. I have no idea how many people may have been at those final vocal sessions, now claiming additional credit. That's none of my business. All I can attest to is my seminal contribution to "Sail On Sailor", and the authorship of that famous chorus." FYI, the full recording is only about 20 seconds longer than what was released. That was apparently what I read. I read it around the time of the box set being released and I guess I thought it was new.
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danlega
Grommet
Posts: 14
Likes: 32
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Post by danlega on Apr 14, 2024 22:46:43 GMT -5
Okay, all that said, and the proof, "as it is," you've given that Jack is a liar, I still don't think you need to mention it whenever you write his name.
Lots of people think he did great things for the band.
Maybe the Boys lost some money on Holland, but we got a great album out of it. I, and many others, love Jack's lyrics. (I love Van Dyke's lyrics even more.)
Bottom line, there's no proof that Jack Rieley hurt the band with any of his "lies" -- and there are lots of fans who think he was great for the band.
If you don't think he was good for the band, fine. That's your opinion. I can't fault you for having your opinion. But you don't need to brandish him a liar.
Love and merci, Dan Lega
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Post by Micha on Apr 15, 2024 7:32:58 GMT -5
Jack's lyrics are obviously much better although: "To sooth my poor throat, I popped a cough drop" should have been retained as is or with a slight contextual tweak; "To sooth my poor throat, I sucked on a Fisherman's Friend" That's a dictionary worthy example of Australian humour if ther ever was one!
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Post by AGD on Apr 15, 2024 13:46:37 GMT -5
Okay, all that said, and the proof, "as it is," you've given that Jack is a liar, I still don't think you need to mention it whenever you write his name. Lots of people think he did great things for the band. Maybe the Boys lost some money on Holland, but we got a great album out of it. I, and many others, love Jack's lyrics. (I love Van Dyke's lyrics even more.) Bottom line, there's no proof that Jack Rieley hurt the band with any of his "lies" -- and there are lots of fans who think he was great for the band. If you don't think he was good for the band, fine. That's your opinion. I can't fault you for having your opinion. But you don't need to brandish him a liar. Love and merci, Dan Lega Jack was great for the band 1970-72, no question... but fact is he got that position by lying about his background. If that tells you anything it speaks volumes for the band's due diligence at the time.
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