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Post by jds on Apr 5, 2024 12:01:32 GMT -5
With the huge caveat that I have no idea what was really going on… It seems that Carl was reluctant to give Dennis so much influence. I can maybe guess a few reasons why, but musically, Dennis was the leading light of the group after Sunflower. They should have done what Dennis wanted to get his songs on the album. But I also thought some of his problem was “Surf’s Up” being on the album at all. As much as I love “Surf’s Up”, it would have maybe been better to lead the way with the songs of a vital new writer, rather than showcase a great song from the past, but from a less than fully functional Brian. I tend to think from day one Dennis marginalized himself despite the group's best efforts to make him a star. The early 70s in particular were there for the taking in terms of making him the featured performer of the group, but he kept sidelining himself with fits of pique, bouts of insecurity, and solo projects that ultimately wound up shelved.
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 5, 2024 13:54:25 GMT -5
Or a "single" that the radios would play. (Fred Vail) Surfs Up was played on fm in college/university towns. And it charted despite the subversion of the radio station cartel. Yes, they are a cartel. And yet Surf's Up (the album) was quite commercially successful -- almost mystifyingly so. I've never fully understood how it was that they managed to pull that off. While no doubt a lot of dedicated Beach Boys fans were curious about the title track, the vast majority of the US record-buying public would have had no awareness of the legend of Smile, and (unlike today) in the record-buying market of 1971, a group of dedicated, well-informed fans was not enough to make a record crack the top 30. As with 15 Big Ones a few years later, a LOT of casual record buyers bought Surf's Up. It should not be a surprise. Kids had seen Brian do Surf's Up solo on Bernstein's Inside Pop in April of 1967 around the time that Carl was arrested on draft charges. Their music was played on college radio which was not an actual part of the radio cartel networks who blackballed the band. Also on fm whose hands were tied less. It was a very savvy audience. And Student Demonstration Time charged in college towns, while being played off the LP. Is that unusual? Whole sides of BBs (Smiley Smile) were played on college and fm radio and they punched through the colleges as venues where the ads were in college newspapers, or underground type newspapers. It is not mystifying. It was grassroots involvement and in the purest sense. No one was asking permission to listen to the BBs. They took it right out of the cartels' hands via college and fm radio.
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Post by ian on Apr 5, 2024 17:38:07 GMT -5
Well they were touring a lot in that period and hitting the college circuit almost entirely. Rieley also really promoted that LP a lot and they got some support from the rock press. They also snagged that television show in August 1971-live from Central Park-timed right before the LP's release. And-I think there was some mystique about Surf's Up-after all Brian had appeared on TV playing it solo in April 1967 (taped Dec 1966 of course) and many people might have recalled that...The Rock press (and the BBs) did build up the legend of Smile.
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Post by bessieboporbach on Apr 5, 2024 18:19:01 GMT -5
And yet Surf's Up (the album) was quite commercially successful -- almost mystifyingly so. I've never fully understood how it was that they managed to pull that off. While no doubt a lot of dedicated Beach Boys fans were curious about the title track, the vast majority of the US record-buying public would have had no awareness of the legend of Smile, and (unlike today) in the record-buying market of 1971, a group of dedicated, well-informed fans was not enough to make a record crack the top 30. As with 15 Big Ones a few years later, a LOT of casual record buyers bought Surf's Up. It should not be a surprise. Kids had seen Brian do Surf's Up solo on Bernstein's Inside Pop in April of 1967 around the time that Carl was arrested on draft charges. Their music was played on college radio which was not an actual part of the radio cartel networks who blackballed the band. Also on fm whose hands were tied less. It was a very savvy audience. And Student Demonstration Time charged in college towns, while being played off the LP. Is that unusual? Whole sides of BBs (Smiley Smile) were played on college and fm radio and they punched through the colleges as venues where the ads were in college newspapers, or underground type newspapers. It is not mystifying. It was grassroots involvement and in the purest sense. No one was asking permission to listen to the BBs. They took it right out of the cartels' hands via college and fm radio. I find it hard to believe that the college audience of 1971 was particularly impressed with "Student Demonstration Time," a song from 1954 with new lyrics blaming the Jackson State killings on the victims! I also have serious doubts that very many Americans remembered the Inside Pop performance or were aware Carl's draft problems. All that said, I agree that there was hip stuff on the record and I'm a pretty big fan of it. But it does seem clear that Jack Rieley must have worked his ass off getting it across to a mass audience, because on musical grounds alone it was far from a sure thing. A fair few albums that were "big on campus" during that period didn't chart anywhere near as well as Surf's Up did. In fact it was probably very destructive for Dennis' solo aspirations that he pulled his songs from what turned out to be one of the (only) two successful Beach Boys studio LPs of the '70s.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Apr 5, 2024 19:05:52 GMT -5
It should not be a surprise. Kids had seen Brian do Surf's Up solo on Bernstein's Inside Pop in April of 1967 around the time that Carl was arrested on draft charges. Their music was played on college radio which was not an actual part of the radio cartel networks who blackballed the band. Also on fm whose hands were tied less. It was a very savvy audience. And Student Demonstration Time charged in college towns, while being played off the LP. Is that unusual? Whole sides of BBs (Smiley Smile) were played on college and fm radio and they punched through the colleges as venues where the ads were in college newspapers, or underground type newspapers. It is not mystifying. It was grassroots involvement and in the purest sense. No one was asking permission to listen to the BBs. They took it right out of the cartels' hands via college and fm radio. I find it hard to believe that the college audience of 1971 was particularly impressed with "Student Demonstration Time," a song from 1954 with new lyrics blaming the Jackson State killings on the victims! I also have serious doubts that very many Americans remembered the Inside Pop performance or were aware Carl's draft problems. All that said, I agree that there was hip stuff on the record and I'm a pretty big fan of it. But it does seem clear that Jack Rieley must have worked his ass off getting it across to a mass audience, because on musical grounds alone it was far from a sure thing. A fair few albums that were "big on campus" during that period didn't chart anywhere near as well as Surf's Up did. In fact it was probably very destructive for Dennis' solo aspirations that he pulled his songs from what turned out to be one of the (only) two successful Beach Boys studio LPs of the '70s. SDT was pretty popular with my circle of friends in Philadelphia, PA and in Scottsdale, AZ. It was well received in concert, as well.
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 5, 2024 20:19:01 GMT -5
It should not be a surprise. Kids had seen Brian do Surf's Up solo on Bernstein's Inside Pop in April of 1967 around the time that Carl was arrested on draft charges. Their music was played on college radio which was not an actual part of the radio cartel networks who blackballed the band. Also on fm whose hands were tied less. It was a very savvy audience. And Student Demonstration Time charged in college towns, while being played off the LP. Is that unusual? Whole sides of BBs (Smiley Smile) were played on college and fm radio and they punched through the colleges as venues where the ads were in college newspapers, or underground type newspapers. It is not mystifying. It was grassroots involvement and in the purest sense. No one was asking permission to listen to the BBs. They took it right out of the cartels' hands via college and fm radio. I find it hard to believe that the college audience of 1971 was particularly impressed with "Student Demonstration Time," a song from 1954 with new lyrics blaming the Jackson State killings on the victims! I also have serious doubts that very many Americans remembered the Inside Pop performance or were aware Carl's draft problems. All that said, I agree that there was hip stuff on the record and I'm a pretty big fan of it. But it does seem clear that Jack Rieley must have worked his ass off getting it across to a mass audience, because on musical grounds alone it was far from a sure thing. A fair few albums that were "big on campus" during that period didn't chart anywhere near as well as Surf's Up did. In fact it was probably very destructive for Dennis' solo aspirations that he pulled his songs from what turned out to be one of the (only) two successful Beach Boys studio LPs of the '70s. Well, in real time there were anti-war demonstrations at virtually every campus in the country. It was an unlikely song for them but showed they were aware of world events, very in their faces with Carl's arrest causing international headlines. Did anyone care it was a rip from Cell Block? No. It was the theme that mattered. Four Dead in O-H-I-O rang across the country. Music is a reflection of current affairs and culture for the most part. You have doubts that anyone remembered Carl being arrested after being on the cover of every newspaper in the country denounced as a draft dodger? And on TV as the first war covered on television broadcast the numbers of casualties, right at dinner time. But, I look at Jack as a promoter. (Who falsified/inflated his resume) The college niche worked. They did other venues as well. Word of mouth was a Surf's Up story. Surf's Up was an fm album. The title from an 5 year old song that no one had copies of. Curiosity sold those LPs as much as anything else. And, I was in college at that time, and watched it unfold.
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Post by bessieboporbach on Apr 6, 2024 6:22:30 GMT -5
I find it hard to believe that the college audience of 1971 was particularly impressed with "Student Demonstration Time," a song from 1954 with new lyrics blaming the Jackson State killings on the victims! I also have serious doubts that very many Americans remembered the Inside Pop performance or were aware Carl's draft problems. All that said, I agree that there was hip stuff on the record and I'm a pretty big fan of it. But it does seem clear that Jack Rieley must have worked his ass off getting it across to a mass audience, because on musical grounds alone it was far from a sure thing. A fair few albums that were "big on campus" during that period didn't chart anywhere near as well as Surf's Up did. In fact it was probably very destructive for Dennis' solo aspirations that he pulled his songs from what turned out to be one of the (only) two successful Beach Boys studio LPs of the '70s. Well, in real time there were anti-war demonstrations at virtually every campus in the country. It was an unlikely song for them but showed they were aware of world events, very in their faces with Carl's arrest causing international headlines. Did anyone care it was a rip from Cell Block? No. It was the theme that mattered. Four Dead in O-H-I-O rang across the country. Music is a reflection of current affairs and culture for the most part. You have doubts that anyone remembered Carl being arrested after being on the cover of every newspaper in the country denounced as a draft dodger? And on TV as the first war covered on television broadcast the numbers of casualties, right at dinner time. But, I look at Jack as a promoter. (Who falsified/inflated his resume) The college niche worked. They did other venues as well. Word of mouth was a Surf's Up story. Surf's Up was an fm album. The title from an 5 year old song that no one had copies of. Curiosity sold those LPs as much as anything else. And, I was in college at that time, and watched it unfold. Oh I understand that the song is *about* the student demonstrations of that period. My point is that the song is not exactly *sympathetic* to the students (or the cops, I guess -- it's not purely reactionary) and in the end counsels against getting involved in student activism. It's not the fist-pumping socially conscious pro-youth song they seemed to think it was. So I can see why Dennis thought it was silly.
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 6, 2024 7:02:41 GMT -5
Well, in real time there were anti-war demonstrations at virtually every campus in the country. It was an unlikely song for them but showed they were aware of world events, very in their faces with Carl's arrest causing international headlines. Did anyone care it was a rip from Cell Block? No. It was the theme that mattered. Four Dead in O-H-I-O rang across the country. Music is a reflection of current affairs and culture for the most part. You have doubts that anyone remembered Carl being arrested after being on the cover of every newspaper in the country denounced as a draft dodger? And on TV as the first war covered on television broadcast the numbers of casualties, right at dinner time. But, I look at Jack as a promoter. (Who falsified/inflated his resume) The college niche worked. They did other venues as well. Word of mouth was a Surf's Up story. Surf's Up was an fm album. The title from an 5 year old song that no one had copies of. Curiosity sold those LPs as much as anything else. And, I was in college at that time, and watched it unfold. Oh I understand that the song is *about* the student demonstrations of that period. My point is that the song is not exactly *sympathetic* to the students (or the cops, I guess -- it's not purely reactionary) and in the end counsels against getting involved in student activism. It's not the fist-pumping socially conscious pro-youth song they seemed to think it was. So I can see why Dennis thought it was silly. Was it unsympathetic as to the reasons for the protests or was it a caution of the physical danger being involved in one? Do you go near a mob and not expect to be jostled, knocked to the ground or worse? It does not discourage other forms of activism, which suggests a broad brush (there are many such as writing or lobbying) but is more "don't get killed" at a protest. Dennis might have a negative opinion (one I never heard of until reading your comment) but to the fans it was a concrete departure from a largely pleasure based only music theme (much pressure from the industry) - whatever the effect was, it was timely. And that is the message that needed to be sent. And as Dr. BB commented, it was well-received. Isn't that the point? Musicians being connected to the audiences.
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Post by bessieboporbach on Apr 6, 2024 8:06:57 GMT -5
A bit unrelated, but I just looked up "Student Demonstration Time" and apparently Blondie plays bass on it? My mind is blown!
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 6, 2024 8:37:50 GMT -5
A bit unrelated, but I just looked up "Student Demonstration Time" and apparently Blondie plays bass on it? My mind is blown! If that is from wiki, it also quotes Jack commenting on band members responses but they used it in the setlist so it was effective and it charted in certain areas. Badman came out in 2004 and I remember no direct quotes coming from the band and Carl was MD. It could be Jack's "recall." A guy who fibbed to get the job. Both band members were deceased so were not there to defend a position. I'd hardly rely on his word on an opinion not his own. It came out August 30 of 1971, just in time for back to campus. Blondie was not on the road with them until the winter of 1972 when I saw him on a college campus. (Bellagio)
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jasonkt
Dude/Dudette
Posts: 62
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Post by jasonkt on Apr 6, 2024 8:53:13 GMT -5
I never got the feeling that the song was counseling students not to protest, it was just warning them that it might get violent, so watch out. I love the track, and think with some lyrical tweaks it would be far less despised.
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Post by ian on Apr 6, 2024 8:57:34 GMT -5
Just defending Jack…he fibbed to get the job but so what …everyone knows that sometimes you have to seize an opportunity because they aren’t often handed to you. in my opinion he was the right manager at that time. He had good ideas and helped them stay afloat. I like Fred Vail but he is a more conservative guy and his advice to “stay the course “ was not good advice in 1970, especially when Sunflower bombed. Jack helped them a lot.
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 6, 2024 9:04:35 GMT -5
I never got the feeling that the song was counseling students not to protest, it was just warning them that it might get violent, so watch out. I love the track, and think with some lyrical tweaks it would be far less despised. That was my impression - you need to use your street smarts when there is a demonstration. Not that you should not protest.
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 6, 2024 9:23:52 GMT -5
Just defending Jack…he fibbed to get the job but so what …everyone knows that sometimes you have to seize an opportunity because they aren’t often handed to you. in my opinion he was the right manager at that time. He had good ideas and helped them stay afloat. I like Fred Vail but he is a more conservative guy and his advice to “stay the course “ was not good advice in 1970, especially when Sunflower bombed. Jack helped them a lot. Was it fake-it-till-you-make it? Yes. You know, Ian, if you are in academia, those validated, stamped transcripts are everything. Giving the devil his due, Jack did punch down hard into the college circuit, SDT did not hurt them and that was a fluke getting airplay on fm and college stations. Students generally gave the finger to am radio and dual band am-fm radios suddenly became very popular, so it represented a market shift as well, driven by students. No one was controlling (fm and student radio) them by remote control, such as the record companies and their affiliates in mainstream radio. Sunflower bombed from lack of US airplay and promotion despite the sterling tracks. If Jack was working with colleges, he was not up against what Fred Vail was, which was a cartel. I think we are seeing a taste of what this is, with the whole P Diddy events now. Forming Brother so boldly, but for the right reasons, screwed them in terms of bona fide promotion. A lot of the Jack-era bookings and choices of school entertainment were run and sponsored by/through the Student Government Associations, which is a complete popularity contest. The officers wanted to get re-elected and would advertise on their flyers that they got the Temptations or John Sebastian or whomever, for the school events and that should get them voted in again. Unless the entertainment was very controversial and got pressure to cancel from trustees, things were fine. And they got photos and bragging rights in the yearbook. Jack was not dealing with the traditional route that Fred was saddled with. Were some bookings the traditional route and venues, subject to the regular entertainment business model such as local music halls and theaters as well as some outdoor venues doing summer shows? Of course. But the heavy college circuit shows did not have that kind of pressure. Jack is quoting band members impressions after they were both deceased. That is multi layered hearsay. Brian is quoted as finding the lyrics too heavy or something similar. Someone can still ask Brian what his impressions were.
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Post by bessieboporbach on Apr 6, 2024 9:36:17 GMT -5
A bit unrelated, but I just looked up "Student Demonstration Time" and apparently Blondie plays bass on it? My mind is blown! If that is from wiki, it also quotes Jack commenting on band members responses but they used it in the setlist so it was effective and it charted in certain areas. Badman came out in 2004 and I remember no direct quotes coming from the band and Carl was MD. It could be Jack's "recall." A guy who fibbed to get the job. Both band members were deceased so were not there to defend a position. I'd hardly rely on his word on an opinion not his own. It came out August 30 of 1971, just in time for back to campus. Blondie was not on the road with them until the winter of 1972 when I saw him on a college campus. (Bellagio) My assertion that Dennis found the song silly or laughable is based on the Dennis interview quoted in the OP ("With 'Riot' we really cracked up in the studio doing it"). In fact Denny seems to be implying that others in the band felt the same way.
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danlega
Grommet
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Post by danlega on Apr 6, 2024 9:39:39 GMT -5
Just defending Jack…he fibbed to get the job but so what …everyone knows that sometimes you have to seize an opportunity because they aren’t often handed to you. in my opinion he was the right manager at that time. He had good ideas and helped them stay afloat. I like Fred Vail but he is a more conservative guy and his advice to “stay the course “ was not good advice in 1970, especially when Sunflower bombed. Jack helped them a lot. Yeah, why keep bringing up "Jack Rieley is a liar"?! That really rankles me. Jack was great for the band, and was never accused of doing anything shady while hired as their manager -- nor after, either! He's even said he had tons of stories to tell, but would keep them to himself because he respected the Boys too much. And who knows, maybe the reports of what Jack supposedly said to "get" the job aren't factual either. And even if he did embellish his resume, that doesn't mean he still wouldn't have gotten the job. I think Jack Rieley was absolutely great as a manager (and I wish he had stayed with them,) and to always hear from some corner that he's this supposedly BIG liar is totally unfair to the accomplishments and great things he achieved with our favorite band, and the upstanding way in which he filled his obligation. He was a darn good lyricist, too! You want to tarnish Eugene Landy every time you talk about him, fine! He kept Brian from seeing his family and friends, and wormed his way into Brian's songwriting business. Absolutely things a psychiatrist should not do. But Jack Rieley never did anything that hurt the Beach Boys and doesn't need that scurrilous "liar" tag to follow him, especially after all the good he did to help the band.
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Post by bessieboporbach on Apr 6, 2024 9:46:04 GMT -5
Just defending Jack…he fibbed to get the job but so what …everyone knows that sometimes you have to seize an opportunity because they aren’t often handed to you. in my opinion he was the right manager at that time. He had good ideas and helped them stay afloat. I like Fred Vail but he is a more conservative guy and his advice to “stay the course “ was not good advice in 1970, especially when Sunflower bombed. Jack helped them a lot. Yeah, why keep bringing up "Jack Rieley is a liar"?! That really rankles me. Jack was great for the band, and was never accused of doing anything shady while hired as their manager -- nor after, either! He's even said he had tons of stories to tell, but would keep them to himself because he respected the Boys too much. And who knows, maybe the reports of what Jack supposedly said to "get" the job aren't factual either. And even if he did embellish his resume, that doesn't mean he still wouldn't have gotten the job. I think Jack Rieley was absolutely great as a manager (and I wish he had stayed with them,) and to always hear from some corner that he's this supposedly BIG liar is totally unfair to the accomplishments and great things he achieved with our favorite band, and the upstanding way in which he filled his obligation. He was a darn good lyricist, too! You want to tarnish Eugene Landy every time you talk about him, fine! He kept Brian from seeing his family and friends, and wormed his way into Brian's songwriting business. Absolutely things a psychiatrist should not do. But Jack Rieley never did anything that hurt the Beach Boys and doesn't need that scurrilous "liar" tag to follow him, especially after all the good he did to help the band. Amen to everything you've said. And additionally, Brian seemed/seems to love Jack and that has to count for something too. I can't help but feel something else is going on with regard to the excessive animus toward him. He more or less saved the band.
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 6, 2024 9:54:00 GMT -5
If that is from wiki, it also quotes Jack commenting on band members responses but they used it in the setlist so it was effective and it charted in certain areas. Badman came out in 2004 and I remember no direct quotes coming from the band and Carl was MD. It could be Jack's "recall." A guy who fibbed to get the job. Both band members were deceased so were not there to defend a position. I'd hardly rely on his word on an opinion not his own. It came out August 30 of 1971, just in time for back to campus. Blondie was not on the road with them until the winter of 1972 when I saw him on a college campus. (Bellagio) My assertion that Dennis found the song silly or laughable is based on the Dennis interview quoted in the OP ("With 'Riot' we really cracked up in the studio doing it"). In fact Denny seems to be implying that others in the band felt the same way. That album has a "history" with what should and what should not have gone on it. My personal view is that it should have been a double album but after Sunflower, was anyone going to put out a double album? Dennis certainly had stuff that could have gone on it and some of his stuff is wonderful. Do we know what went on in the studio? No. It's great to find an old interview but the big bomb was that "Surf's Up" (to Brian's reported dismay) was the title and a track sung by Carl. And Brian was pressured to let it be released. Everything else about that album is secondary. The title track was the hook for the sales. Not SDT. But SDT got airplay so it can't be dismissed even after all this time. And they didn't seem to play it outside of the US, either so it was targeted to the audiences with a certain demographic. They did the Cell Block #9 version in Paris in December of 1970.
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Post by AGD on Apr 7, 2024 1:23:53 GMT -5
Just defending Jack…he fibbed to get the job but so what …everyone knows that sometimes you have to seize an opportunity because they aren’t often handed to you. in my opinion he was the right manager at that time. He had good ideas and helped them stay afloat. I like Fred Vail but he is a more conservative guy and his advice to “stay the course “ was not good advice in 1970, especially when Sunflower bombed. Jack helped them a lot. Yeah, why keep bringing up "Jack Rieley is a liar"?! That really rankles me. Jack was great for the band, and was never accused of doing anything shady while hired as their manager -- nor after, either! He's even said he had tons of stories to tell, but would keep them to himself because he respected the Boys too much. And who knows, maybe the reports of what Jack supposedly said to "get" the job aren't factual either. And even if he did embellish his resume, that doesn't mean he still wouldn't have gotten the job. I think Jack Rieley was absolutely great as a manager (and I wish he had stayed with them,) and to always hear from some corner that he's this supposedly BIG liar is totally unfair to the accomplishments and great things he achieved with our favorite band, and the upstanding way in which he filled his obligation. He was a darn good lyricist, too! You want to tarnish Eugene Landy every time you talk about him, fine! He kept Brian from seeing his family and friends, and wormed his way into Brian's songwriting business. Absolutely things a psychiatrist should not do. But Jack Rieley never did anything that hurt the Beach Boys and doesn't need that scurrilous "liar" tag to follow him, especially after all the good he did to help the band. He lied about having won a Peabody award... he lied about being head of the Puerto Rico NBC bureau. Those are established facts. Yes, great manager (a title he always denied, btw), great lyricist but... not honest.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Apr 7, 2024 10:57:22 GMT -5
Let’s also not forget that Jack (allegedly) scammed a bunch of money from the individual Beach Boys about five years after he was dismissed as manager, by making up a fake cancer diagnosis. This comes from the Heroes and Villains book, which obviously does give it that tiny bit of possible deniability, but so much of that book has been proven true in the past 40 years that… it does not seem very unlikely.
We can talk about all of the great things that he did for the group… While still admitting he was definitely a man not afraid of stretching the truth. And certainly, in his later interviews he embellished the stories a bit to make him and the Wilsons seem like victims of some maharishi inspired plot to take them down by Mike and Al, which is just pure nonsense.
Definitely influential on the group for several years, who pushed them to make some of their best and most forward thinking music. But not an angel.
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 7, 2024 11:05:46 GMT -5
Let’s also not forget that Jack (allegedly) scammed a bunch of money from the individual Beach Boys about five years after he was dismissed as manager, by making up a fake cancer diagnosis. This comes from the Heroes and Villains book, which obviously does give it that tiny bit of possible deniability, but so much of that book has been proven true in the past 40 years that… it does not seem very unlikely. We can talk about all of the great things that he did for the group… While still admitting he was definitely a man not afraid of stretching the truth. And certainly, in his later interviews he embellished the stories a bit to make him and the Wilsons seem like victims of some maharishi inspired plot to take them down by Mike and Al, which is just pure nonsense. Definitely influential on the group for several years, who pushed them to make some of their best and most forward thinking music. But not an angel. That's very funny...Maharishi-inspired plot! 😂
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Apr 7, 2024 11:17:41 GMT -5
Also, for all the talk of him being a great manager… Was he really? Was he?
People like to talk about all the work he did from August 1970 to August 1971 when “Surfs Up” released… but he was their manager for two additional years after that. Two not particularly successful years either.
“So Tough” was (at least compared to Surfs Up) a complete failure that couldn’t even crack the top 50 of the billboard charts and produced zero charting singles. “Holland” is seen as a bit of a High Point for the group now, 50 years later, but at the time it was a completely ridiculous side quest that did not lead to a successful album, and that cost them millions and millions of dollars in today’s money. In 1973 that album… Did not produce a hit single. Did not generate much more interest in the current group, certainly was not a money maker for them or their label, and led to them pretty much not recording anything substantial for another three years. And for how well their live shows were sounding at the time, my understanding is even throughout 72 and 73 they were still losing money on those shows.
Sure, compared to other terrible people in this group’s history, his “bad deeds “ are relatively tiny, and you could maybe are you are equaled out by his great contributions to the music itself. But he is certainly not a figure that needs much defending.
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 7, 2024 11:41:55 GMT -5
Also, for all the talk of him being a great manager… Was he really? Was he? People like to talk about all the work he did from August 1970 to August 1971 when “Surfs Up” released… but he was their manager for two additional years after that. Two not particularly successful years either. “So Tough” was (at least compared to Surfs Up) a complete failure that couldn’t even crack the top 50 of the billboard charts and produced zero charting singles. “Holland” is seen as a bit of a High Point for the group now, 50 years later, but at the time it was a completely ridiculous side quest that did not lead to a successful album, and that cost them millions and millions of dollars in today’s money. In 1973 that album… Did not produce a hit single. Did not generate much more interest in the current group, certainly was not a money maker for them or their label, and led to them pretty much not recording anything substantial for another three years. And for how well their live shows were sounding at the time, my understanding is even throughout 72 and 73 they were still losing money on those shows. Sure, compared to other terrible people in this group’s history, his “bad deeds “ are relatively tiny, and you could maybe are you are equaled out by his great contributions to the music itself. But he is certainly not a figure that needs much defending. Brian, (according to D. Leaf) concerning Jack's falsehoods, wrote a song, entitled, "Is Jack Rieley really Superman?" - it has not surfaced.
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Post by jds on Apr 7, 2024 14:05:20 GMT -5
Rieley's efforts to appeal to the broader music culture were moderately successful, even though they come off to me as disingenuous pandering. His suggested direction for Surf's Up was inspired, but the group weren't organized enough to coherently execute it. There were so many bad ideas floating around the group during his remaining tenure that it's tough to pin exclusive blame on him, but he at least was a motivating force for the Holland boondoggle and he either supported or failed to stop the confusing and marginalizing promotional cycles around the C&TP and Holland. I think his comments about Mike demonstrate that he was entirely too preoccupied with group intrigues, which probably compromised his ability to function as a manager.
I tend to think he was just a small-time con man out of his depth with occasional flashes of inspiration. He seems to have spent the rest of his life failing upwards, for what it's worth.
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Post by Mikie on Apr 7, 2024 14:27:19 GMT -5
Rieley was interested in getting the hip crowd interested in the band. I don't think his idea of touring colleges was a bad one. Whatever he cost the group in financial terms, by bringing them into the modern world, he significantly improved their standing during his time as their manager. Maybe he did make stuff up, but you could also give him credit for inspiring the reconstruction and release of “Surf’s Up”. I do wish he would have stayed on longer. Instead, in 1974, Endless Summer was released and the band for the most part regressed into an oldies act.
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