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Post by John Manning on Apr 7, 2024 14:55:06 GMT -5
Rieley was interested in getting the hip crowd interested in the band. I don't think his idea of touring colleges was a bad one. Whatever he cost the group in financial terms, by bringing them into the modern world, he significantly improved their standing during his time as their manager. Maybe he did make stuff up, but you could also give him credit for inspiring the reconstruction and release of “Surf’s Up”. I do wish he would have stayed on longer. Instead, in 1974, Endless Summer was released and the band for the most part regressed into an oldies act. This. Cometh the hour, cometh the conman. Rieley’s methods might have been questionable but his efforts to revive their cred worked some magic, and it’s not his fault that he came up against the TM side of the band while siding with the Wilsons. If the band as a whole had been onside, things could have worked out very differently; despite that, his era still gave us Feel Flows, Til I Die, The Trader, Only With You, Carnegie ‘72, a completed and definitive Surf’s Up and more.
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Post by lonelysummer on Apr 7, 2024 15:29:19 GMT -5
Or a "single" that the radios would play. (Fred Vail) Surfs Up was played on fm in college/university towns. And it charted despite the subversion of the radio station cartel. Yes, they are a cartel. And yet Surf's Up (the album) was quite commercially successful -- almost mystifyingly so. I've never fully understood how it was that they managed to pull that off. While no doubt a lot of dedicated Beach Boys fans were curious about the title track, the vast majority of the US record-buying public would have had no awareness of the legend of Smile, and (unlike today) in the record-buying market of 1971, a group of dedicated, well-informed fans was not enough to make a record crack the top 30. As with 15 Big Ones a few years later, a LOT of casual record buyers bought Surf's Up. Airplay on FM rock stations?
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Post by bessieboporbach on Apr 7, 2024 15:33:46 GMT -5
Also, for all the talk of him being a great manager… Was he really? Was he? People like to talk about all the work he did from August 1970 to August 1971 when “Surfs Up” released… but he was their manager for two additional years after that. Two not particularly successful years either. “So Tough” was (at least compared to Surfs Up) a complete failure that couldn’t even crack the top 50 of the billboard charts and produced zero charting singles. “Holland” is seen as a bit of a High Point for the group now, 50 years later, but at the time it was a completely ridiculous side quest that did not lead to a successful album, and that cost them millions and millions of dollars in today’s money. In 1973 that album… Did not produce a hit single. Did not generate much more interest in the current group, certainly was not a money maker for them or their label, and led to them pretty much not recording anything substantial for another three years. And for how well their live shows were sounding at the time, my understanding is even throughout 72 and 73 they were still losing money on those shows. Sure, compared to other terrible people in this group’s history, his “bad deeds “ are relatively tiny, and you could maybe are you are equaled out by his great contributions to the music itself. But he is certainly not a figure that needs much defending. A lot of the data is ambiguous. You could just as easily say that he delivered them a gold record (Beach Boys In Concert), their most successful new release since Pet Sounds. And both Surf's Up and Holland could be called hit albums (Holland was even certified in the UK). Of their post-Pet Sounds, pre-Kokomo studio albums, only 15 Big Ones was a bigger hit than Surf's Up or Holland. (Of course a complicating factor is that both Holland and In Concert -- and Carl/Pet -- were double LPs and thus counted as double sales.) As for the lack of a hit single, well, Tree and Mt Vernon aside, he wasn't actually making the music.
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 7, 2024 15:46:05 GMT -5
And yet Surf's Up (the album) was quite commercially successful -- almost mystifyingly so. I've never fully understood how it was that they managed to pull that off. While no doubt a lot of dedicated Beach Boys fans were curious about the title track, the vast majority of the US record-buying public would have had no awareness of the legend of Smile, and (unlike today) in the record-buying market of 1971, a group of dedicated, well-informed fans was not enough to make a record crack the top 30. As with 15 Big Ones a few years later, a LOT of casual record buyers bought Surf's Up. Airplay on FM rock stations? Airplay on both fm and college/university stations, (with pretty independent thinking DJs) some with respectable signals, and the fact that Surf's Up came from the Smile project. And an extraordinary artwork cover. The US market was well aware of the Smile project, and this track was one large part of the puzzle. It was the stuff of college newspapers and word-of-mouth. There was indeed a life of fulfilling communication prior to the internet. 😂
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Post by Mikie on Apr 7, 2024 16:39:26 GMT -5
Rieley was interested in getting the hip crowd interested in the band. I don't think his idea of touring colleges was a bad one. Whatever he cost the group in financial terms, by bringing them into the modern world, he significantly improved their standing during his time as their manager. Maybe he did make stuff up, but you could also give him credit for inspiring the reconstruction and release of “Surf’s Up”. I do wish he would have stayed on longer. Instead, in 1974, Endless Summer was released and the band for the most part regressed into an oldies act. This. Cometh the hour, cometh the conman. Rieley’s methods might have been questionable but his efforts to revive their cred worked some magic, and it’s not his fault that he came up against the TM side of the band while siding with the Wilsons. If the band as a whole had been onside, things could have worked out very differently; despite that, his era still gave us Feel Flows, Til I Die, The Trader, Only With You, Carnegie ‘72, a completed and definitive Surf’s Up and more. "To sum it up, they blew it, they blew it consistently, they continue to blow it. It is tragic and this pathological problem caused The Beach Boys' greatest music to be so underrated by the general public. A diseased bunch of motherfuckers if there ever was one". When Brian was told of Jack's passing in the "Long Promised Road" documentary a couple of years ago, he acted very surprised and saddened that Jack had died, when back in 2015, he'd actually paid homage to Jack on his own website when he passed away.
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Post by AGD on Apr 7, 2024 17:11:54 GMT -5
I'll stick with my assessment of the man, coigned a few decades ago: "Jack told a lot of great stories: some of them were even true".
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Post by ian on Apr 7, 2024 18:25:30 GMT -5
The Beach Boys were pretty much unmanageable in the 70s-then they moved onto Steve Love and that was kind of disastrous and then Jerry Schilling brought some order. I guess Jack was too close to the Wilson contingent and Steve was a member of the Love family, which created problems with Dennis and Carl. So they finally turned to more neutral managers (though Jerry was really close to Carl)……
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Apr 7, 2024 18:41:07 GMT -5
Also, for all the talk of him being a great manager… Was he really? Was he? People like to talk about all the work he did from August 1970 to August 1971 when “Surfs Up” released… but he was their manager for two additional years after that. Two not particularly successful years either. “So Tough” was (at least compared to Surfs Up) a complete failure that couldn’t even crack the top 50 of the billboard charts and produced zero charting singles. “Holland” is seen as a bit of a High Point for the group now, 50 years later, but at the time it was a completely ridiculous side quest that did not lead to a successful album, and that cost them millions and millions of dollars in today’s money. In 1973 that album… Did not produce a hit single. Did not generate much more interest in the current group, certainly was not a money maker for them or their label, and led to them pretty much not recording anything substantial for another three years. And for how well their live shows were sounding at the time, my understanding is even throughout 72 and 73 they were still losing money on those shows. Sure, compared to other terrible people in this group’s history, his “bad deeds “ are relatively tiny, and you could maybe are you are equaled out by his great contributions to the music itself. But he is certainly not a figure that needs much defending. A lot of the data is ambiguous. You could just as easily say that he delivered them a gold record (Beach Boys In Concert), their most successful new release since Pet Sounds. And both Surf's Up and Holland could be called hit albums (Holland was even certified in the UK). Of their post-Pet Sounds, pre-Kokomo studio albums, only 15 Big Ones was a bigger hit than Surf's Up or Holland. (Of course a complicating factor is that both Holland and In Concert -- and Carl/Pet -- were double LPs and thus counted as double sales.) As for the lack of a hit single, well, Tree and Mt Vernon aside, he wasn't actually making the music. “In Concert” was actually after he was dismissed from my understanding. And pushing the album to focus far more on their 60s material, which happened after it went from a single album to a double album, was also unlikely an idea to have come from Rieley. I’d argue that for all the success that people like to put on Jack Rieley, James William guercio should get just as much credit. guercio Got them to actually perform the shows the fans wanted. guercio got them an eight million dollar contract from CBS. guercio literally help them put together a record setting tour in “Beachago”. guercio actually was able to get Dennis to finish a solo album. guercio also got Carl to record his own solo albums. He produced real results, and didn’t have to lie about his résumé to get it done. As for “Holland”, I don’t know about over in the UK, but here in the US it didn’t have a hit single until 1975, two years after it released and two years after Rieley was dismissed. Jack Rieley as a creative consultant and co-writer? We can talk about how great the music they produced with his help was all day. As an actual manager though? He was… quite terrible.
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Post by AGD on Apr 8, 2024 2:04:19 GMT -5
The initial release of "Sailor" charted at #79 a month after Holland was released: not exactly a hit, but still, a charting single... as was "California Saga" a few months later, albeit at an even lower #84.
As for JWG getting Carl to record his solo albums... I think Carl was heading down that path anyway and his hiatus from the band 1981-93 gave him a window. Guercio gave him somewhere to release them, granted.
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 8, 2024 7:01:19 GMT -5
The initial release of "Sailor" charted at #79 a month after Holland was released: not exactly a hit, but still, a charting single... as was "California Saga" a few months later, albeit at an even lower #84. As for JWG getting Carl to record his solo albums... I think Carl was heading down that path anyway and his hiatus from the band 1981-93 gave him a window. Guercio gave him somewhere to release them, granted. That makes the most sense with JWG and Carl spreading his wings. He wasn't a cheerleader or a guru but could grab a guitar next to them onstage while not trying to be a BB. He harnessed their talent to advance them, and not himself - that's the difference. Beach-ago was a smash success. I'd like to know more about JWG's tenure. A manager takes care of the business aspects. And they were going down their own creative paths because personal growth is natural. These individuals come along and almost claim creativity rights especially during the 70s in the effort to retain market relevance. With musicians, that is a great fear that they have an expiration date (which Murry used.) Jack did have that magic MC/DJ voice which commands authority and attention. The college market was the developing market to tap into. They were not limited to the band for the prom. College/University Student Government associations had budgets as seed money to book student entertainment. Jack was in the right place at the right time. It would be interesting to know if the college shows had to be subject to local "non-compete" clauses which would restrict regular commercial shows and theaters. They might have had a freer hand, coming from an educational setting and a more private show setting. It is like those management fools who claimed that drugs made the band more creative. If you go back to All Summer Long and Today - Pet Sounds is only an expansion and upward creativity unfolding...they were getting better with each LP. It is no secret that the Netherlands was more liberal with drugs. It (drugs) has mostly only damaged artists. Back then, no one sued these people (who should have been sued into oblivion) who had a duty to protect the best interests of the clients, not causing harm. Even a legal pharmacist has the duty to warn about side effects. Many failed upward. The question is why. Now, the internet is drawing back that curtain of serial artist abuse.
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Post by Emdeeh on Apr 8, 2024 8:03:08 GMT -5
Back in the '70s, colleges were booking a lot of major acts. In some college towns then, the campus was the only place with a large venue. The BBs had plenty of company on that circuit.
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 8, 2024 8:39:53 GMT -5
Back in the '70s, colleges were booking a lot of major acts. In some college towns then, the campus was the only place with a large venue. The BBs had plenty of company on that circuit. Agree 💯 - but the cities had a ton of theaters, many across the street from one another, and even if the college sold tickets it was kind of still open to the public so it was a kind of indirect geo-competition. Not so in a town where the college was the venue. 🎈
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Apr 8, 2024 10:16:15 GMT -5
Jack was in the right place at the right time. I truly think it really is just this simple. Jack Rieley helped them get taken more seriously during a time when that was what they needed. An important figure during one specific era. But all of the suggestions that he should have remained their manager throughout the rest of their career are ridiculous. Even just trying to imagine how he would’ve navigated something like “Endless Summer” going number one… or the entire “Brian’s Back” saga… or the spring 1978 Australia tour. The guy was a truth stretcher who was clearly talented at selling himself and admitted to taking the same drugs as The group with the group. If anything there was a very large possibility he would’ve just brought more chaos, caused less to get done and created more division.
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 8, 2024 10:40:59 GMT -5
Jack was in the right place at the right time. I truly think it really is just this simple. Jack Rieley helped them get taken more seriously during a time when that was what they needed. An important figure during one specific era. But all of the suggestions that he should have remained their manager throughout the rest of their career are ridiculous. Even just trying to imagine how he would’ve navigated something like “Endless Summer” going number one… or the entire “Brian’s Back” saga… or the spring 1978 Australia tour. The guy was a truth stretcher who was clearly talented at selling himself and admitted to taking the same drugs as The group with the group. If anything there was a very large possibility he would’ve just brought more chaos, caused less to get done and created more division. He was a war-time activist/protest figure. The war was winding down around 1973/4 and he was right in that window. The mood of the country changed so that same writing or business approach shifted, almost overnight. It was time to get back to business, and relax a little.
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Post by Mikie on Apr 8, 2024 13:38:30 GMT -5
But all of the suggestions that he should have remained their manager throughout the rest of their career are ridiculous. I suggested it, but I didn't mean for the rest of their career. And it's not "ridiculous" to think he could have stayed longer. He contributed lyrics to some good songs during their artsy fartsy creative period. But going to Holland to record was his idea and his downfall. The end trashed his rep. But Rieley left his mark on some important recordings in 1971 and 1972, as can be heard on The Feel Flows set. I really wish they would have continued their creative period into at least 1975 instead of falling back and resting on their laurels.
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 8, 2024 15:51:56 GMT -5
I suggested it. I think for myself. And it's not "ridiculous". He contributed lyrics to some good songs during their artsy fartsy creative period. But going to Holland to record was his idea and his downfall. The end trashed his rep. But Rieley left his mark on some important recordings in 1971 and 1972, as can be heard on The Feel Flows set. I really wish they would have continued their creative period into at least 1975 instead of falling back and resting on their laurels. Mikie - I totally get it. There was so much stuff going on for them then, such Carl's case in the Court of Appeals in California in 1971, that went on for a few years after (maybe 1974) and the Tate-LaBianca trial. That would wipe anyone out. At least when the comps Endless Summer, Spirit of America and GV, Best of) were released getting ready for the bicentennial, they were finally heroes in the States and recognized as America's Band (where did that expression come from?) Finally, some respect. But, I completely get what you mean. 🎈
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Post by Mikie on Apr 8, 2024 16:27:56 GMT -5
I suggested it. I think for myself. And it's not "ridiculous". He contributed lyrics to some good songs during their artsy fartsy creative period. But going to Holland to record was his idea and his downfall. The end trashed his rep. But Rieley left his mark on some important recordings in 1971 and 1972, as can be heard on The Feel Flows set. I really wish they would have continued their creative period into at least 1975 instead of falling back and resting on their laurels. Mikie - I totally get it. There was so much stuff going on for them then, such Carl's case in the Court of Appeals in California in 1971, that went on for a few years after (maybe 1974) and the Tate-LaBianca trial. That would wipe anyone out. At least when the comps Endless Summer, Spirit of America and GV, Best of) were released getting ready for the bicentennial, they were finally heroes in the States and recognized as America's Band (where did that expression come from?) Finally, some respect. But, I completely get what you mean. 🎈 'Surf's Up' and 'Holland' were very good albums. Along with 'Marcella' on C&TP, Rieley's contributions were assets to those albums. Too bad they didn't go down that creative road. Not to say the next two studio albums were a disappointment compared to Sunflower, Surf's Up, and Holland, but I don't think they were of the same caliber as the first three records for Warner Brothers.
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 8, 2024 16:33:34 GMT -5
Mikie - I totally get it. There was so much stuff going on for them then, such Carl's case in the Court of Appeals in California in 1971, that went on for a few years after (maybe 1974) and the Tate-LaBianca trial. That would wipe anyone out. At least when the comps Endless Summer, Spirit of America and GV, Best of) were released getting ready for the bicentennial, they were finally heroes in the States and recognized as America's Band (where did that expression come from?) Finally, some respect. But, I completely get what you mean. 🎈 'Surf's Up' and 'Holland' were very good albums. Along with 'Marcella' on C&TP, Rieley's contributions were assets to those albums. Too bad they didn't go down that creative road. Not to say the next two albums were a disappointment compared to Sunflower, Surf's Up, and Holland, but I don't think they were of the same caliber as the first three records for Warner Brothers. Mikie - I always think of CATP as part of Holland. The Live 73/74 is the frosting on the cake (Leaving This Town!) and I look at that as Rieley-era as well. So, 4 very fine 🎶 albums in that era.
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Post by bessieboporbach on Apr 8, 2024 18:58:09 GMT -5
Views on Rieley aside, I do think it is interesting to contemplate what their early '70s music would have looked like had they never hired him, both in terms of songwriting and in terms of his editorial role.
Just in terms of songwriting, I'm not a particular fan of his more ornately "poetic" writing (e.g. "Feel Flows", "Long Promised Road," "Sail on Sailor") but when he had a really strong theme ("4th of July," "Day In the Life of a Tree," "Trader") his lyrics could be vivid and biting, overcoming his tendency to overwrite.
I sometimes wonder if "Feel Flows," for example, might have come off stronger with Mike lyrics. But I have a hard time imagining how "Trader" could have been better. And I certainly have a hard time imagining "Tree" sung by anyone else.
And I suspect a Rieleyless Surf's Up album and Holland wouldn't have the gravity those albums have ("Till I Die" and "Surf's Up" notwithstanding).
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Post by Mikie on Apr 8, 2024 19:14:13 GMT -5
Rieley's lyrics are very avant-garde, I'll give you that. Airy fairy? Just as obtuse if not more than Van Dyke's lyrics. Took me years trying to figure out the meaning to a few of his songs and I'm still trying to figure out what they mean. How about "Direction bringing her to now's tomorrow" or "Whether wondrous will stands tall at my side". Or......"Sew up the wounds of evolution and the now starts to get in my way"? Will the judges take that?
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Post by bessieboporbach on Apr 8, 2024 20:32:51 GMT -5
Rieley's lyrics are very avant-garde, I'll give you that. Airy fairy? Just as obtuse if not more than Van Dyke's lyrics. Took me years trying to figure out the meaning to a few of his songs and I'm still trying to figure out what they mean. How about "Direction bringing her to now's tomorrow" or "Whether wondrous will stands tall at my side". Or......"Sew up the wounds of evolution and the now starts to get in my way"? Will the judges take that? With a few exceptions ("Tree," "Trader") Rieley's lyrics read as ridiculous on the page. He was part of the post-Dylan generation of rock songwriters that equated mixing big words, abstractions, and participles with profundity. To be frank, VDP was also guilty of this -- although he's more self-aware and humorous -- and of course Dylan too, at his most pretentious. A lot of times when I tire of all the '60s and '70s "song poets" I'll put on a Leonard Cohen record (e.g. "Seems So Long Ago, Nancy") and let out a grateful sigh at the work of a real poet. Homey, familiar words, chosen with precision to sustain ideas and metaphors of great clarity and genuine literary and historical resonance. But they can't all be Leonard Cohen and I don't really hold it against Jack Rieley for not being on that level. No one else was. Even Leonard wasn't always.
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ryankc
Dude/Dudette
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Likes: 175
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Post by ryankc on Apr 8, 2024 21:59:35 GMT -5
I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion here, but to me, The Beach Boys really started to fall apart after Sunflower. There's a ton of great music post-Sunflower; I'm talking more working as cohesive band, with most members performing on most songs. They became much more fragmented with making music and Dennis' role is severely underutilized, post-Sunflower. Aren't there articles stating Dennis had in fact quit The Beach Boys in 1971? Dennis is not on many of the songs during the Rieley era, correct?
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malibu
Grommet
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Post by malibu on Apr 9, 2024 0:53:51 GMT -5
And Sunflower lacked what every successful album must have, a single.
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Post by jay on Apr 9, 2024 1:09:41 GMT -5
And Sunflower lacked what every successful album must have, a single. Several songs were single worthy. Forever is the obvious one. I've always thought It's About Time should have been a big comeback for them.
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Post by AGD on Apr 9, 2024 3:03:26 GMT -5
Rieley's lyrics are very avant-garde, I'll give you that. Airy fairy? Just as obtuse if not more than Van Dyke's lyrics. Took me years trying to figure out the meaning to a few of his songs and I'm still trying to figure out what they mean. How about "Direction bringing her to now's tomorrow" or "Whether wondrous will stands tall at my side". Or......"Sew up the wounds of evolution and the now starts to get in my way"? Will the judges take that? With a few exceptions ("Tree," "Trader") Rieley's lyrics read as ridiculous on the page. He was part of the post-Dylan generation of rock songwriters that equated mixing big words, abstractions, and participles with profundity. To be frank, VDP was also guilty of this -- although he's more self-aware and humorous -- and of course Dylan too, at his most pretentious. A lot of times when I tire of all the '60s and '70s "song poets" I'll put on a Leonard Cohen record (e.g. "Seems So Long Ago, Nancy") and let out a grateful sigh at the work of a real poet. Homey, familiar words, chosen with precision to sustain ideas and metaphors of great clarity and genuine literary and historical resonance. But they can't all be Leonard Cohen and I don't really hold it against Jack Rieley for not being on that level. No one else was. Even Leonard wasn't always. Missing the obvious one, "Sail On, Sailor": his lyric blows the original/alternate (below) away. And it's 100% accessible. I am a singer, a gospel singer I sing for people, I sing for pleasure Only a dreamer, who came from nowhere Sail on, wail on Sailor
Over the cities, I see the rooftops To sooth my poor throat, I popped a cough drop (or "To soothe my poor soul, I thought a whole lot") Often frightened, Unenlightened Sail on, wail on Sailor Sail on, wail on Sailor Just like my mamma said, Ray there's a way But you gotta get yourself out of that ghetto today You might stumble, you could fumble When you're down low don't feel under And the thunder and the lightning Aren't as frightening when you're coked out Heartbreak city ain't so pretty When you're down and nitty gritty Sail on, wail on Sailor Sail on, wail on sailor Sail on, wail on sailor
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