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Post by filledeplage on Dec 10, 2020 11:30:49 GMT -5
The lyrics on Smile are no more meaningless, no more incomprehensible, and no more pretentious than, say: "She said, 'I'm home on shore leave,' though in truth we were at sea so I took her by the looking glass and forced her to agree saying, 'You must be the mermaid who took Neptune for a ride.'" "With all the windows open wide Couldn't pressurize my head from speaking Hoping not to make a sound I pushed my bed into the grounds In time to catch the sight that I was seeking" "Living is easy with eyes closed, Misunderstanding all you see I think I know, I mean, ah yes, but it's all wrong It doesn't matter much to me" "Zabadak, Zabadak Karakakora kakarakak Zabadak Shai shai skagalak" And so on. The pop charts in 1967 were *absolutely full* of pseudo-profundities and lyrics chosen more for their sound than their meaning. Parks' lyrics were more literate than most of them, and stand up far better. That is funny because it is 100% true. Thank you. But not so much a divergence of lyrical work-product, as what was emerging from Smile lyrics. On the heels of "God Only Knows what I'd be without you." Itchycoo Park? (no pun intended) Yes, also a lot of nonsense words. The lofty concepts needed context. The competition was too fierce in '66-'67 not to be competitive not only with music tracks but with "availability" lyrically. Do you leave that to the befuddled listener, without turning listeners off, pissing off record buyers, as well as concert goers? And, so much so that concert attendance plummeted, so they retreated to the UK. It was not my job, as a listener, to figure out what Parks meant, as applied, to Brian's great tracks and the BBs spectacular vocals. And, turn the buyers into non-buyers, who trash the band, and in real-time? The complexity of the project added to the inaccessible lyrics compounded that problem. While your car might go 150 mph, the speed governor only lets you go 90 mph. In real time, it was a problem.
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Tilt Araiza
Dude/Dudette
Dominated Ruins Columbo
Posts: 64
Likes: 85
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Post by Tilt Araiza on Dec 10, 2020 12:39:16 GMT -5
Surf's Up, Cabin Essence and Do You Like Worms are certainly impressionistic and seem to need a commentary to clarify what's going on but for the rest, Parks is certainly capable of knuckling down and making things at least mostly straightforward.
Heroes And Villains - The opening line lays it all out. The stuff about Cotillion is a bit messy, but even then, there's an easy interpretation to put on it. Wonderful - Girl meets boy, loses her virginity, he's a heel but don't worry, she'll come home I'm In Great Shape (for the sake of argument including Barnyard) - It's about living well on a farm Vega-Tables - Even "tripped on a cornucopia" is just a...well a corny pun Wind Chimes - I think this might be Van Dyke rewriting Brian's lyrics
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Dec 10, 2020 12:55:02 GMT -5
This is the 100 biggest songs in the United States of 1967. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billboard_Year-End_Hot_100_singles_of_1967Now, one thing that we can say about Brian is, he wanted to be on top. Not just artistically, but chart wise as well. He has stated in interviews several times that he got a huge thrill by seeing a Beach Boys tune at that number one position of the Billboard charts. So what songs hit number one in 1967? I'm a Believer, a song about Guy infatuated with girl. Kind of a Drag, a song that’s about a relationship gone bad.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Dec 10, 2020 13:06:29 GMT -5
Ruby Tuesday: a song about a girl Love Is Here and Now You're Gone: kind of self-explanatory. Penny Lane: A catchy song about a place, with a clear hook, and easily understandable lyrics. Happy Together, A song about guy and girl. Somethin' Stupid, A duet. The Happening, a song about the joys of love. Groovin, a song about... Groovin. Respect: everyone knows this one. Windy, A song with a repetitive hook that gets stuck in your head extremely easily. Light My Fire All You Need Is Love Ode to Billie Joe I could keep going, but just for the sake of argument, that’s the first half for so of 1967. I don’t see where heroes and villains, or any of the Smile tracks, fits in here at all, musically or lyrically. The GV or PS Beach boys, if they continue down that path, could’ve easily had a hit in this first half of the year. It would’ve blended right in with happy together, I’m a believer, and would have took off right where GV left off. I don’t think any of the Smile tracks would’ve done that. It would’ve gave them hip points, but that’s about it
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Tilt Araiza
Dude/Dudette
Dominated Ruins Columbo
Posts: 64
Likes: 85
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Post by Tilt Araiza on Dec 10, 2020 13:13:30 GMT -5
Heroes And Villains is a love story with a bit of an extended narrative going on, so you can slot it next to Ode To Billie Joe.
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Post by filledeplage on Dec 10, 2020 13:14:43 GMT -5
Surf's Up, Cabin Essence and Do You Like Worms are certainly impressionistic and seem to need a commentary to clarify what's going on but for the rest, Parks is certainly capable of knuckling down and making things at least mostly straightforward.
Heroes And Villains - The opening line lays it all out. The stuff about Cotillion is a bit messy, but even then, there's an easy interpretation to put on it. Wonderful - Girl meets boy, loses her virginity, he's a heel but don't worry, she'll come home I'm In Great Shape (for the sake of argument including Barnyard) - It's about living well on a farm Vega-Tables - Even "tripped on a cornucopia" is just a...well a corny pun Wind Chimes - I think this might be Van Dyke rewriting Brian's lyrics
My hat is off to Parks for the cotillion (dance - prom) reference - and it is also referenced in The Waltz which I love, and am certainly in the extreme minority. Technically a French country dance if that was the intent. There are a bunch of contexts. It was more a Southern thing, but also a society (club) thing as well but formal dance will do, tuxedo and long formal dress. And part of the American experience that they brought along from the old countries. The gap seemed to be no one knew what the whole Plymouth Rock to Hawaii was all in isolation without connecting the dots. If you explain that - you can become involved in it and look for the next geographic clue in the lyrics to tie the journey together. If it is a secret - maybe not so much.
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Post by filledeplage on Dec 10, 2020 13:18:06 GMT -5
Ruby Tuesday: a song about a girl Love Is Here and Now You're Gone: kind of self-explanatory. Penny Lane: A catchy song about a place, with a clear hook, and easily understandable lyrics. Happy Together, A song about guy and girl. Somethin' Stupid, A duet. The Happening, a song about the joys of love. Groovin, a song about... Groovin. Respect: everyone knows this one. Windy, A song with a repetitive hook that gets stuck in your head extremely easily. Light My Fire All You Need Is Love Ode to Billie Joe I could keep going, but just for the sake of argument, that’s the first half for so of 1967. I don’t see where heroes and villains, or any of the Smile tracks, fits in here at all, musically or lyrically. The GV or PS Beach boys, if they continue down that path, could’ve easily had a hit in this first half of the year. It would’ve blended right in with happy together, I’m a believer, and would have took off right where GV left off. I don’t think any of the Smile tracks would’ve done that. It would’ve gave them hip points, but that’s about it Surf's Up was a solo Brian performance on composer Leonard Bernstein's special called "Inside Pop" taped (I think) in December 1966 and broadcast in April of 1967. Smiley Smile came out in late summer of 1967.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Dec 10, 2020 13:22:38 GMT -5
Ruby Tuesday: a song about a girl Love Is Here and Now You're Gone: kind of self-explanatory. Penny Lane: A catchy song about a place, with a clear hook, and easily understandable lyrics. Happy Together, A song about guy and girl. Somethin' Stupid, A duet. The Happening, a song about the joys of love. Groovin, a song about... Groovin. Respect: everyone knows this one. Windy, A song with a repetitive hook that gets stuck in your head extremely easily. Light My Fire All You Need Is Love Ode to Billie Joe I could keep going, but just for the sake of argument, that’s the first half for so of 1967. I don’t see where heroes and villains, or any of the Smile tracks, fits in here at all, musically or lyrically. The GV or PS Beach boys, if they continue down that path, could’ve easily had a hit in this first half of the year. It would’ve blended right in with happy together, I’m a believer, and would have took off right where GV left off. I don’t think any of the Smile tracks would’ve done that. It would’ve gave them hip points, but that’s about it Surf's Up was a solo Brian performance on composer Leonard Bernstein's special called "Inside Pop" taped (I think) in December 1966 and broadcast in April of 1967. Smiley Smile came out in late summer of 1967. Ok? Surfs’ Up is brilliant, but it’s no #1 single, especially not in 1967
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Post by jds on Dec 10, 2020 13:57:40 GMT -5
I'm in on the Smile dunking contest. Never before has so much good music come from a project that was so fundamentally flawed at conception.
Van Dyke was a bad choice for a Beach Boys lyricist and Heroes and Villains is a weak song -- with an appeal limited to BB supernerds -- no matter how many linking tracks you stack on top of the melody. Brian got very lucky and had the time to make Good Vibrations work, but self-conscious modular composition was a crutch to disguise diminishing melodic dexterity.
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Post by filledeplage on Dec 10, 2020 14:08:34 GMT -5
Surf's Up was a solo Brian performance on composer Leonard Bernstein's special called "Inside Pop" taped (I think) in December 1966 and broadcast in April of 1967. Smiley Smile came out in late summer of 1967. Ok? Surfs’ Up is brilliant, but it’s no #1 single, especially not in 1967 Yes - I agree, but here is the context. It was not released until August of 1972, and part of the same titled album. It was not a single in 1967 but was expected then. Sorry, if I explained that poorly.
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Post by jds on Dec 10, 2020 14:08:48 GMT -5
New hot take: I think Brian Wilson may be the most depressing story in pop music no matter what kind of a spin you put on it. Listening to old session tapes with him completely engaged with his craft, loved by the world and enjoying the company of family and friends is what I imagine seeing a ghost is like.
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Post by kds on Dec 10, 2020 14:33:14 GMT -5
New hot take: I think Brian Wilson may be the most depressing story in pop music no matter what kind of a spin you put on it. Listening to old session tapes with him completely engaged with his craft, loved by the world and enjoying the company of family and friends is what I imagine seeing a ghost is like. At least he had a happier ending than somebody like Syd Barrett.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Dec 10, 2020 16:22:09 GMT -5
I'm in on the Smile dunking contest. Never before has so much good music come from a project that was so fundamentally flawed at conception. Van Dyke was a bad choice for a Beach Boys lyricist and Heroes and Villains is a weak song -- with an appeal limited to BB supernerds -- no matter how many linking tracks you stack on top of the melody. Brian got very lucky and had the time to make Good Vibrations work, but self-conscious modular composition was a crutch to disguise diminishing melodic dexterity. It’s not about dunking on smile. And if you really study it, it’s lyrically sound, and obviously production wise it’s Absolutely perfect. But, it’s not The Beach Boys... at all. If you had to boil down The Beach Boys catalog to one song, or even to one album, it’s not gonna contain anything from Smile. To me, smile is much more similar to a VDP album than it is to a Beach Boys album. Nothing they did lyrically before it, or after it sounds anything like it. It wasn’t a direct progression from PS and GV, it was a complete switch up that would’ve divided audiences. While Tony Asher was able to use Brian‘s music to expand ideas that had been planted in previous Beach Boys songs, and Mike Love’s GV lyrics were simple and easy for audiences to get at, VDP just couldn’t write a Beach Boys song. Maybe the album would’ve been successful if it was released under a different name. Smile - (An Album from Brian Wilson and The Smile Band) or something like that maybe would have made more sense, because it would be clear that it wasn’t a Direct sequel to previous Beach Boys productions. And then they could’ve used the Beach Boys band name for albums like Wild Honey. As for heroes and villains, it uses a stream of consciousness type format, which is good, except that all stream of consciousness’s tend to have an ending. Every assembly of heroes and villains, with the exception of the 2004 and 2011 BWPS and Smile Sessions, tend to have huge flaws that makes them extremely unsatisfactory. The early single mix starts off ok, but the lack of hook between the verse and a cappella section tends to be pretty jarring. Then, after the Jive to Survive section, we get about seven seconds of echoing whistling and blast noises, and just when you think it’s actually going somewhere, it kind of just... ends. Comes to a boring, plotting, disappointing conclusion that lasts about 45 seconds too long for this assembly of the track. Brian called it a 3 minute comedy, and it’s really not. It’s basically two minutes, with an extremely long Fade, and it’s not very funny. The Smiley version has better vocals, and kind of a hook, but it’s not a very good hook. It’s not very catchy, it’s slow and creepy, and it’s pretty disappointing compared to hooks that they’ve had in the past. The most interesting parts of the track, the cantina section, the Jive to Survive section, and The random blast of noise are all cut. and the Fade is also disappointing on this one, it’s just the chorus. And even though the Smile Sessions version is still my favorite, I still have a lot of problems with it. No Jive to Survive, no noise blast, and it doesn’t fade on the orchestral ending.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Dec 10, 2020 16:34:14 GMT -5
New hot take: I think Brian Wilson may be the most depressing story in pop music no matter what kind of a spin you put on it. Listening to old session tapes with him completely engaged with his craft, loved by the world and enjoying the company of family and friends is what I imagine seeing a ghost is like. There are parts of it that are quite depressing, especially the 70s in the 80s. but there are still moments, where the 60s Brian peaks through. This one is quite a Spirit lifter.
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Post by filledeplage on Dec 10, 2020 16:44:01 GMT -5
New hot take: I think Brian Wilson may be the most depressing story in pop music no matter what kind of a spin you put on it. Listening to old session tapes with him completely engaged with his craft, loved by the world and enjoying the company of family and friends is what I imagine seeing a ghost is like. There are parts of it that are quite depressing, especially the 70s in the 80s. but there are still moments, where the 60s Brian peaks through. This one is quite a Spirit lifter. Very nice - I've never seen that - and that section with Nicky Wonder...thanks. I'm not sure or convinced with all this "depression" analysis. Sometimes, people just dig in with their thoughts and wonder about things that are serious in a more philosophical way and it comes across as depression. People might have what is perceived to the outside world as depressing but it is just life, with its ups and downs. It is not a straight paths - lots of bumps and forks in the road. We all get our butts kicked along the way - and hopefully learn and grow from it.
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airplanetag
Dude/Dudette
Posts: 60
Likes: 96
Favorite Album: The Beach Boys Love You
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Post by airplanetag on Dec 10, 2020 17:13:50 GMT -5
I don't really like the idea of viewing Brian's life as depressing or a tragedy. While he's suffered and no doubt been to some dark places mentally, I'd guess he's also been to some beautiful places too, given the music he's created. Despite a major mental illness, he's achieved so much. He's made some of the most beloved and influential music of the 20th century which continues to make millions of people happy. Although he's never been as prolific as he was in the 60s, he's had major bursts of creativity in the 70s, 80s, 90s and 2000s. He's had a happy marriage and family life for the last few decades. He lived long enough to see his work on Smile redeemed (in the form of BWPS and TSS). I'd rather see his life as a triumph. At least he had a happier ending than somebody like Syd Barrett. After reading a couple of biographies on Syd Barrett, I don't even consider his life story to be a tragedy. Basically, he was a painter who got into music for a few years, made some fantastic music, and then retired due to mental health problems and ambivalence about a career in the music industry. After that, he seems to have lived a quiet life painting, gardening, and reading. According to his sister, once he took up painting again he was much better mental health-wise. He probably could have returned to music at some point, but I don't think he wanted to. So many people with mental illness end up homeless or dead at a young age. I have a lot of sympathy for Syd and I wish he hadn't suffered the way he did, but I don't think he had a bad lot in life, all things considered.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Dec 10, 2020 19:43:18 GMT -5
To me, more disturbing and depressing than Brian‘s mental health is the entire Landy situation. I recently re-read Mike’s book, and my goodness was Landy a sad sad man. The entire situation of his secretary finding extremely old and years past due pill bottles from previous decades in Brian’s office, plus Landy’s described extreme over reaction to it, plus the fact that it was around the same time that he had that Will drawn up that basically said if Brian died, Landy got most of his belongings really paints an extremely disturbing picture that could have turned tragic real quick.
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Post by jds on Dec 10, 2020 20:21:59 GMT -5
I'm in on the Smile dunking contest. Never before has so much good music come from a project that was so fundamentally flawed at conception. Van Dyke was a bad choice for a Beach Boys lyricist and Heroes and Villains is a weak song -- with an appeal limited to BB supernerds -- no matter how many linking tracks you stack on top of the melody. Brian got very lucky and had the time to make Good Vibrations work, but self-conscious modular composition was a crutch to disguise diminishing melodic dexterity. It’s not about dunking on smile. And if you really study it, it’s lyrically sound, and obviously production wise it’s Absolutely perfect. But, it’s not The Beach Boys... at all. If you had to boil down The Beach Boys catalog to one song, or even to one album, it’s not gonna contain anything from Smile. To me, smile is much more similar to a VDP album than it is to a Beach Boys album. Nothing they did lyrically before it, or after it sounds anything like it. It wasn’t a direct progression from PS and GV, it was a complete switch up that would’ve divided audiences. While Tony Asher was able to use Brian‘s music to expand ideas that had been planted in previous Beach Boys songs, and Mike Love’s GV lyrics were simple and easy for audiences to get at, VDP just couldn’t write a Beach Boys song. Maybe the album would’ve been successful if it was released under a different name. Smile - (An Album from Brian Wilson and The Smile Band) or something like that maybe would have made more sense, because it would be clear that it wasn’t a Direct sequel to previous Beach Boys productions. And then they could’ve used the Beach Boys band name for albums like Wild Honey. As for heroes and villains, it uses a stream of consciousness type format, which is good, except that all stream of consciousness’s tend to have an ending. Every assembly of heroes and villains, with the exception of the 2004 and 2011 BWPS and Smile Sessions, tend to have huge flaws that makes them extremely unsatisfactory. The early single mix starts off ok, but the lack of hook between the verse and a cappella section tends to be pretty jarring. Then, after the Jive to Survive section, we get about seven seconds of echoing whistling and blast noises, and just when you think it’s actually going somewhere, it kind of just... ends. Comes to a boring, plotting, disappointing conclusion that lasts about 45 seconds too long for this assembly of the track. Brian called it a 3 minute comedy, and it’s really not. It’s basically two minutes, with an extremely long Fade, and it’s not very funny. The Smiley version has better vocals, and kind of a hook, but it’s not a very good hook. It’s not very catchy, it’s slow and creepy, and it’s pretty disappointing compared to hooks that they’ve had in the past. The most interesting parts of the track, the cantina section, the Jive to Survive section, and The random blast of noise are all cut. and the Fade is also disappointing on this one, it’s just the chorus. And even though the Smile Sessions version is still my favorite, I still have a lot of problems with it. No Jive to Survive, no noise blast, and it doesn’t fade on the orchestral ending. I think Van Dyke's SMILE lyrics are the work of a very, very young man with overweening artistic ambitions. Only Bob Dylan has really pulled off stuffing the amount of evocation and information into a pop song form that Van Dyke attempts to do in every track he left his mark on, and Bob Dylan was only able to do so after composing books' worth of unseen free writing practice and even then was only able to pull it off for a couple of years in his artistic prime. I think Wind Chimes is the sole instance of Van Dyke-Era lyrics that guide or enhance a track instead of trying to compete with it, and I'm not 100% Van Dyke had anything to do with those lyrics. Surf's Up is tied with H&V as among the worst lyrics in the Beach Boys catalogue, actively blocking this listener from engaging with the music, and this becomes clear anytime anyone who isn't prime-era Brian or Carl tries to sing them. Mike Love was completely justified in calling out Van Dyke for midwit hucksterism. Thankfully for Van Dyke, he has plenty of great work that justifies his reputation in the music industry apart from the SMILE lyrics.
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Post by andrewhickey on Dec 11, 2020 7:30:31 GMT -5
"Heroes and Villains" is an entirely straightforward narrative lyric, telling a Wild West story like roughly half of all American TV shows of the period. The thing that really stopped it being a big hit wasn't the lyrics but the music. Hit singles at the time had to be danceable, and the tempo changes in H&V are too abrupt and jarring to make it good dance music (you can dance to "Good Vibrations" quite easily). "Surf's Up" was intended as an album track, not a single. It's no different in that respect to other 1966/1967 album tracks like "Visions of Johanna" by Bob Dylan or "Daily Nightly" by the Monkees or "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" by the Beatles -- I think it's a *better* lyric than any of those, but it's still of the same kind as all of them. And this is the important thing to note -- Smile was intended *as an album*, and in late 66 and 67 the kind of songs that were on hit albums were diverging *wildly* from the kind that were hit singles.
You know what lyrics genuinely *are* incomprehensible gibberish? Most of the car songs. I know what "I've been in this town so long that back in the city I've been taken for lost and gone and unknown for a long, long time" means. It literally couldn't be any more straightforward. But "My four-speed, dual-quad, positraction 409"? "She's ported and relieved and she's stroked and bored"? Not a clue. It's technical jargon that is only of interest if you're particularly interested in automotive maintenance, and is totally incomprehensible if you're not.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Dec 11, 2020 8:07:58 GMT -5
"Heroes and Villains" is an entirely straightforward narrative lyric, telling a Wild West story like roughly half of all American TV shows of the period. The thing that really stopped it being a big hit wasn't the lyrics but the music. Hit singles at the time had to be danceable, and the tempo changes in H&V are too abrupt and jarring to make it good dance music (you can dance to "Good Vibrations" quite easily). "Surf's Up" was intended as an album track, not a single. It's no different in that respect to other 1966/1967 album tracks like "Visions of Johanna" by Bob Dylan or "Daily Nightly" by the Monkees or "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" by the Beatles -- I think it's a *better* lyric than any of those, but it's still of the same kind as all of them. And this is the important thing to note -- Smile was intended *as an album*, and in late 66 and 67 the kind of songs that were on hit albums were diverging *wildly* from the kind that were hit singles. You know what lyrics genuinely *are* incomprehensible gibberish? Most of the car songs. I know what "I've been in this town so long that back in the city I've been taken for lost and gone and unknown for a long, long time" means. It literally couldn't be any more straightforward. But "My four-speed, dual-quad, positraction 409"? "She's ported and relieved and she's stroked and bored"? Not a clue. It's technical jargon that is only of interest if you're particularly interested in automotive maintenance, and is totally incomprehensible if you're not. While I agree on the whole that Smile was intended as an album, we do know that Brian toiled with Vegetables and H&V trying to come up with something that would work as a single. Realistically, Brian knew that he didn’t have the leeway with Capitol to release an album without a NEW single. Heroes... wound up being an OK single, but it was futzed with as released and it didn’t do nearly as well as Good Vibrations.
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Post by filledeplage on Dec 11, 2020 8:16:27 GMT -5
"Heroes and Villains" is an entirely straightforward narrative lyric, telling a Wild West story like roughly half of all American TV shows of the period. The thing that really stopped it being a big hit wasn't the lyrics but the music. Hit singles at the time had to be danceable, and the tempo changes in H&V are too abrupt and jarring to make it good dance music (you can dance to "Good Vibrations" quite easily). "Surf's Up" was intended as an album track, not a single. It's no different in that respect to other 1966/1967 album tracks like "Visions of Johanna" by Bob Dylan or "Daily Nightly" by the Monkees or "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" by the Beatles -- I think it's a *better* lyric than any of those, but it's still of the same kind as all of them. And this is the important thing to note -- Smile was intended *as an album*, and in late 66 and 67 the kind of songs that were on hit albums were diverging *wildly* from the kind that were hit singles. You know what lyrics genuinely *are* incomprehensible gibberish? Most of the car songs. I know what "I've been in this town so long that back in the city I've been taken for lost and gone and unknown for a long, long time" means. It literally couldn't be any more straightforward. But "My four-speed, dual-quad, positraction 409"? "She's ported and relieved and she's stroked and bored"? Not a clue. It's technical jargon that is only of interest if you're particularly interested in automotive maintenance, and is totally incomprehensible if you're not. In part I agree - about the dance part. 100% You can't dance to Heroes. Dances for teens in the US (the buyers market) were still huge. H&V was not getting there and despite a position on the car stuff - it is written in a stanza form - closer to what you can say in one breath. You'd have to be quite talented to take one breath - and sing that line. The concept is straight-forward, I agree, but it could have been re-tooled (not the concept of the Wild West) but the phrasing. And fans who liked the melody, took the time to find out what those auto-specific terms were. H&V was not user-friendly as a dance song. GV barely gets there. Surf's Up - no way. So there are three right off the bat. But it was not all confined to dance. There was plenty of stuff that became hits that was dance-worthy - and we had Motown!
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Post by andrewhickey on Dec 11, 2020 8:17:13 GMT -5
While I agree on the whole that Smile was intended as an album, we do know that Brian toiled with Vegetables and H&V trying to come up with something that would work as a single. Realistically, Brian knew that he didn’t have the leeway with Capitol to release an album without a NEW single. Heroes... wound up being an OK single, but it was futzed with as released and it didn’t do nearly as well as Good Vibrations. Oh yeah, I agree that "Heroes and Villains" was intended as a single. I'm talking more about the take that "Surf's Up" and "Cabinessence" aren't doing the same thing as "Happy Together" and therefore they're bad. (Also, seriously, "Ode to Billie Joe" is a song whose lyrics still cause arguments about their meaning more than fifty years later, so really not a good example to bring up when saying lyrics need to be straightforward.)
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Post by andrewhickey on Dec 11, 2020 8:22:09 GMT -5
Great observation. And you know what? It's not as if those impenetrable hot rod lyrics are really much of a blockade to enjoying the music of a song, no more than the Parks lyrics are, and those Parks lyrics are far more comprehensible to the average person. Heroes and Villains has, at worst, some puns. There genuinely is not a line in that song beyond some literal surface level of understanding. It isn't Jack Rieley. Wonderful and Surf's Up are the most ambiguous he gets. Even with those, I think it's deliberately obtuse to claim the words are so mystifying that they're in conflict with the listener being able to connect with the imagery, feeling and intent of the songs... because they just aren't. Absolutely. Indeed, I think anyone can figure out exactly what's going on in "Wonderful". I certainly got it straight away when I first heard it when I was seventeen. "Surf's Up" is the only one where I think the lyrics could actually be considered truly difficult, and there they're so beautiful that it doesn't really matter. And you're right, one *doesn't* need to understand the literal meaning of every word of the song to enjoy them. Just as I haven't a clue if "positraction" is even a word at all -- I've certainly never encountered it in any other circumstance -- but I get that all the car songs say "I have a good car. Other people's cars are less good than my car, which is good".
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Departed
Former Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2020 8:30:45 GMT -5
I’m reminded of a Queen song that one cannot dance to, has largely incomprehensible lyrics, and was a major hit single across the world.
I would also add (and maybe this qualifies as a hot take) that I don’t think smile songs were so out there for the time. I mean, sgt pepper had being for the benefit of mr kite and a day in the life. I don’t think smile was incredibly far removed from those songs.
I think smile was ahead of its time, but I think other 60s music was also ahead of the times. I’m not sure smile was more ahead of the times than pepper was.
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Post by hankbriarstem on Dec 11, 2020 9:22:57 GMT -5
Great observation. And you know what? It's not as if those impenetrable hot rod lyrics are really much of a blockade to enjoying the music of a song, no more than the Parks lyrics are, and those Parks lyrics are far more comprehensible to the average person. Heroes and Villains has, at worst, some puns. There genuinely is not a line in that song beyond some literal surface level of understanding. It isn't Jack Rieley. Wonderful and Surf's Up are the most ambiguous he gets. Even with those, I think it's deliberately obtuse to claim the words are so mystifying that they're in conflict with the listener being able to connect with the imagery, feeling and intent of the songs... because they just aren't. Absolutely. Indeed, I think anyone can figure out exactly what's going on in "Wonderful". I certainly got it straight away when I first heard it when I was seventeen. "Surf's Up" is the only one where I think the lyrics could actually be considered truly difficult, and there they're so beautiful that it doesn't really matter. And you're right, one *doesn't* need to understand the literal meaning of every word of the song to enjoy them. Just as I haven't a clue if "positraction" is even a word at all -- I've certainly never encountered it in any other circumstance -- but I get that all the car songs say "I have a good car. Other people's cars are less good than my car, which is good". Except for No Go Showboat!
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