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Post by AGD on Dec 7, 2020 2:32:57 GMT -5
What is with the play your own instruments argument? As a producer, Brian chose to use outside musicians for two reasons; because the band was constantly on the road and 2) to produce the sounds he was hearing in his head. Like Phil Spector and other producers of the day, they used studio musicians. That is there call to make as Producer. Brian made 3 albums mainly with the Wrecking Crew. The Beach Boys as a band played on the vast majority of their records. It’s cool to be fully self-contained, but way too much is made of it. Just ask Beethoven and Mozart. Frank Sinatra would have been screwed if his greatness and popularity was dependent on composing, writing, arranging and producing and playing all the instruments on is own records. I know, and I completely understand why studio musicians are used, but the first time I found out that Pet Sounds was mostly played by studio musicians years ago, I can’t deny that I felt a little ripped off So, according to your credo, if the band had stayed exactly as they were in 1962 and kept playing the same instruments with no hired hands to help out, and Brian kept Mike as his eternal lyricist, then we'd all have world peace and unlimited candy bars ? Can't speak for you, but I'd find endless retreads of Surfin' USA or Surfer Girl would very soon get stale. No All Summer Long, no Today!, no Pet Sounds, no Wild Honey...
Did you feel similarly ripped off when you discovered George Martin, Alan Civil or Eric Clapton played on Beatles tracks ? When Billy Preston was actually credited on the single label alongside the band, your sense of betrayal must have been apocalyptic.
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Post by kds on Dec 7, 2020 8:58:02 GMT -5
I know, like when I first found out it wasn’t Mike Love blowing the sax on their hit records. I never heard Fun Fun Fun and Shut Down the same way again. At least that's him on Kokomo. A music video would never lie.
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Post by craigslowinski on Dec 7, 2020 9:00:09 GMT -5
I know, like when I first found out it wasn’t Mike Love blowing the sax on their hit records. I never heard Fun Fun Fun and Shut Down the same way again. You know that it IS Mike playing the sax on "Shut Down", right?
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Post by AGD on Dec 7, 2020 9:26:03 GMT -5
I recall reading somewhere that it's also him on "Pom Pom Playgirl", "Shut Down Part 2" and "Louie Louie". Not convinced about the first, but the other two could well be.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Dec 7, 2020 9:46:19 GMT -5
I know, like when I first found out it wasn’t Mike Love blowing the sax on their hit records. I never heard Fun Fun Fun and Shut Down the same way again. You know that it IS Mike playing the sax on "Shut Down", right? Yep, it was just a bit of light sarcasm. Considering that Jay Migliori and Plas Johnson were Brian’s two main saxophonists on many of The Beach Boys records.
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Post by AGD on Dec 7, 2020 10:56:06 GMT -5
There's a man at the door would like a word with you. Name of Douglas. Steve Douglas. 😆
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Dec 7, 2020 11:29:50 GMT -5
There's a man at the door would like a word with you. Name of Douglas. Steve Douglas. 😆 Indeed!
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Post by Mikie on Dec 7, 2020 11:59:18 GMT -5
There's a man at the door would like a word with you. Name of Douglas. Steve Douglas. 😆 Really? It must be Heaven's door then 'cause Douglas checked out back in 1993.
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Post by hankbriarstem on Dec 7, 2020 12:42:32 GMT -5
Missing in this discussion is the maniacal drive Brian Wilson had in those days to make great records. He was willing for the Beach Boys to be on the road as rock n roll stars. He was all about those records.
Whether hiring the best available players or utilizing an array of unusual instruments to get the sound he wanted, or drilling his band members like a sergeant, he did it. He was relentless.
The part of Brian's personality that in many ways is the hardest to understand is that singular drive. He was focused and driven as a young man in a way that anyone in any industry would find awesome.
That's what separates Brian from most every peer. He had the talent to hear inside his head the sound he wanted and the drive to duplicate that sound on record. He wasn't concerned about image or about whether his decisions would create controversy. He was a man who made great records. Help Me Ronda was a perfectly fine album cut on Today! He heard more and made it a number one hit as Help Me Rhonda, though I doubt the addition of "h" was crucial to the achievement.
Imagine the pressure he placed on himself. He had no Lennon, as did McCartney, no George Martin, as did Lennon, and so on. He had himself, his drive and his vision. This takes nothing from Lennon and McCartney, nor from Brian's bandmates. It is simply reality. He was a Renaissance artist and a paid-by-the-hour laborer. His experience was singular.
The massive weight of that task is probably underrated in any understanding of what was to occur. He sacrificed his mental, emotional and physical well-being to fulfill his dream of making those records. When I hear Banana and Louie at the end of Pet Sounds, I think -- Brian Wilson worked like a dog on this creation. What a work ethic.
Again, none of this diminishes the contributions of the other band members, all of whom played vital roles. And we must also say of Mike Love - what a work ethic.
In terms of dedication to live music, Mike has few peers. He is and has been a very wealthy man, yet he has stood on a stage to sing only Andrew Doe and a few others, maybe, know how many times. This is a contribution to the Beach Boys legacy nothing Mike has done or will do can diminish. How long would there have been a Beach Boys band, touring and promoting these incredible sounds, had Mike not had such a towering work ethic? He also created great lyrics and provided exactly the voice his cousin wanted and needed.
But Brian Wilson is unique in the world of rock n roll. He is both a genius and a hard-working guy. And while no achievement is confined to the work of a single person, he carried a singularly massive share of the work and the inspiration required to fully realize his own vision. And he paid a price, which is surely why many of us are so protective of his legacy.
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Post by Mikie on Dec 7, 2020 13:10:05 GMT -5
Right arm, Hank. And let's not forget that he was an innovator and one of the first young Producers in the recording industry in the early 60's after he took the reigns from Nick Venet and never looked back. Not only on Beach Boys records, but all of those other artists too. How he found the time to do all of this, I don't know. Songwriter, Producer, Arranger, Singer, Musician in the studio and on the road, 1/2 Recording Engineer..........just Mr. Everything.
And as you said on the last line, he paid the price for it.
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Tilt Araiza
Dude/Dudette
Dominated Ruins Columbo
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Post by Tilt Araiza on Dec 7, 2020 13:13:07 GMT -5
I know, and I completely understand why studio musicians are used, but the first time I found out that Pet Sounds was mostly played by studio musicians years ago, I can’t deny that I felt a little ripped off That makes That's Not Me the best track on the album. There's Blaine on there, but augmenting a band of Wilsons.
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Post by filledeplage on Dec 7, 2020 14:47:38 GMT -5
On a related note, some of the ideas Brian had in the 1965-67 timeframe were absolutely ridiculous, and he’s lucky that most of his odd ramblings weren’t heard until years later on bootlegs and box sets. If garbage like “Brian Falls into a Microphone” or “Fishie shwim shwim” would have somehow found a way onto vinyl in 1967, The Beach Boys would’ve been laughed out of the music industry. So in a weird way, it’s... um... kind of a good thing that Smile was canceled. If anything, it may have saved them all some embarrassment. Obviously, once the album grew in mystique and legendary status, every single scrap of it was treated like an amazing Picasso painting, but the truth is that a lot of the ideas that surround the brilliance is pure drug fueled nonsense. Also, I count myself lucky to say that I live in a world where there were never lyrics written for a track called Love to Say Dada. Having heard Brian Wilson’s absolutely disturbing audio fragments from around the time, and knowing that he would go on to right weirdness like I Wanna Pick You Up and lazy lizzy, my mind absolutely boggles at what form of strangeness would have presented itself in the lyrical content of a track called Love to Say Dada. Smile - as I see it - was a function of boiling down a lot of tracks - that would both flow and would sell. 1967 was about the craziest and fun year in music with new artists and what turned out to be a lot of one-hit wonders. When Smile was revisited (and it seemed to have been multiple times) there were people with laptop computers who seemed to be able to craft a kind of roadmap of the best tracks to release - for a Brian live tour around 2004, and later, as the original Beach Boys vocals tracks. Some tracks leaked out randomly and landed on a bunch of albums and in the 1993 box set. Had all the tracks been mapped out on a large wall - with index cards (I don't know that they were not mapped out that way) - and decisions made about a running order, or if it was to be a double album, it might have been helpful. Artists always try to edit to get the best result and maybe that was one of the problems - but many contemporaries of the old Smiley Smile - are not turned off by what might be regarded now as off beat tracks. Sometimes artists struggle with what is a finished product. I don't think that it was not from lack of effort.
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Post by Will/P.P. on Dec 7, 2020 15:47:09 GMT -5
People grow though. Sgt Pepper's was a hit with those who loved (and still love) I Want to Hold Your Hand. The Boys were changing things up in 1966 with Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations while Best of the Beach Boys from 1963 through 1965 was quietly racking up sales and hitting chart heights (even higher) right along side and beyond. Agree with both of you. Ed hit it right on the head. Same way I experienced music. People grow through. People grew along with the music that was coming from Americans like The Beach Boys and from the UK. 1965 to 1967 the best of it had happened, but we didn't stop growing. In 1967 World music was creeping in. By 1970 music had become so diverse, the choices so vast, our musical palettes had exploded into many colors of style. Cam correctly points out that when Pet Sounds came out we didn't stop loving the older albums. Actually took me a few years to grow into what Pet Sounds was talking about . You had to become a young adult to understand it fully .
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Dec 7, 2020 17:29:59 GMT -5
Heres another opinion I have that might rustle some jimmies around these parts... There is absolutely nothing wrong with completely new stereo mixes of albums. Sure, it’s not how the “artist” intended it to sound. So what? The artist never intended us to stick a CD in a player and listen to the album straight through, or listen to 2 albums on the same disc, or listen to The material that didn’t make the final albums. Yet, all The Beach Boys albums are available on compact disc and digitally, some of them paired together, some of them with the new remasters and remixes, some of them with previously unreleased bonus tracks, not to mention all of the compilations, re-ordered tracklists, and renamed albums that have trickled out over the years. Plus, I’ve been way more successful getting my friends into 60s artists by playing them the new modern stereo mixes. I prefer today, Summer Days, Pet Sounds, and Wild Honey in their respective stereo mixes, over the original mono. On a similar note, the fact that TWGMTR has autotune on it never really bothered me. Plus, I highly doubt that the artist, in this case Brian, Mike, Al, etc, give two flying hoots how we listen to the albums. If I’m listening to the original mono mix, they’re getting paid. If I’m listening to the new stereo mix, they’re getting paid. If I buy it as 256KBPS from iTunes, they’re getting paid. If I buy the latest vinyl pressing, they’re getting paid. So it really doesn’t matter.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Dec 7, 2020 17:31:10 GMT -5
Hate to say it, but Joe Walsh could play circles around Carl Wilson. It was probably Carl's idea that Joe make a guest appearance in the first place and he most likely approved Joe's guitar work on the song. Oh, I don’t doubt any of that. I just think that when it comes to the case of this song, Carl could have done a better job.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Dec 7, 2020 17:35:46 GMT -5
I know, and I completely understand why studio musicians are used, but the first time I found out that Pet Sounds was mostly played by studio musicians years ago, I can’t deny that I felt a little ripped off So, according to your credo, if the band had stayed exactly as they were in 1962 and kept playing the same instruments with no hired hands to help out, and Brian kept Mike as his eternal lyricist, then we'd all have world peace and unlimited candy bars ? Can't speak for you, but I'd find endless retreads of Surfin' USA or Surfer Girl would very soon get stale. No All Summer Long, no Today!, no Pet Sounds, no Wild Honey...
Did you feel similarly ripped off when you discovered George Martin, Alan Civil or Eric Clapton played on Beatles tracks ? When Billy Preston was actually credited on the single label alongside the band, your sense of betrayal must have been apocalyptic.
Not what I meant at all. That’s not even what I said, I never said I had a problem with them using studio musicians. What I said was, when I was first getting into Pet Sounds, before I knew anything about the BBs, I just assumed that they played all the instruments themselves. So when I found out that they didn’t, it kind of upset me. This was a long, long time ago, and obviously nowadays I don’t care if they use studio musicians. They made the record sound good, and that’s what’s important. But in my early, novice days, it felt wrong
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airplanetag
Dude/Dudette
Posts: 60
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Favorite Album: The Beach Boys Love You
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Post by airplanetag on Dec 7, 2020 20:21:06 GMT -5
Speaking of Mike's sax playing, here's a hot take of mine: the primitive saxophone blasts in the middle of Shut Down are an iconic Beach Boys moment. The best part of the song, really.
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Post by John Manning on Dec 7, 2020 20:23:28 GMT -5
So, according to your credo, if the band had stayed exactly as they were in 1962 and kept playing the same instruments with no hired hands to help out, and Brian kept Mike as his eternal lyricist, then we'd all have world peace and unlimited candy bars ? Can't speak for you, but I'd find endless retreads of Surfin' USA or Surfer Girl would very soon get stale. No All Summer Long, no Today!, no Pet Sounds, no Wild Honey...
Did you feel similarly ripped off when you discovered George Martin, Alan Civil or Eric Clapton played on Beatles tracks ? When Billy Preston was actually credited on the single label alongside the band, your sense of betrayal must have been apocalyptic.
Not what I meant at all. That’s not even what I said, I never said I had a problem with them using studio musicians. What I said was, when I was first getting into Pet Sounds, before I knew anything about the BBs, I just assumed that they played all the instruments themselves. So when I found out that they didn’t, it kind of upset me. This was a long, long time ago, and obviously nowadays I don’t care if they use studio musicians. They made the record sound good, and that’s what’s important. But in my early, novice days, it felt wrong those “novice days”… when I was a kid just getting into The Beach Boys, I’d study the writing and production credits avidly, which was something none of my schoolmates ever did. I was blown away by the fact that one Beach Boy’s production credits appeared on so many of my favourite records. Yup, B. Johnston was working with Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Johnny Cash, The Byrds, and Simon & Garfunkel as well as the number one surf band. Impressive!
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Post by Mikie on Dec 7, 2020 20:37:50 GMT -5
Hate to say it, but Joe Walsh could play circles around Carl Wilson. It was probably Carl's idea that Joe make a guest appearance in the first place and he most likely approved Joe's guitar work on the song. Oh, I don’t doubt any of that. I just think that when it comes to the case of this song, Carl could have done a better job. So.........since Carl presumably heard the final playback of the recording prior to release, do you not think that if he woulda thought he could do a better job than Joe, that he would have plugged his guitar in and done so?
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Dec 7, 2020 21:56:48 GMT -5
Oh, I don’t doubt any of that. I just think that when it comes to the case of this song, Carl could have done a better job. So.........since Carl presumably heard the final playback of the recording prior to release, do you not think that if he woulda thought he could do a better job than Joe, that he would have plugged his guitar in and done so? No. Even Bruce has said that KTSA, the song, could have been way better, but Carl insisted it be soft and meh. ” In 2013, Johnston expressed dissatisfaction with the production of the title track, which he perceived as being weaker-sounding due to Carl's intervention.” I love Carl, but he made some dumb decisions. His entire first solo album was another dumb decision, with the exception of the song Heaven. During this 1979-1981 period, Carl went through this phase of taking songs that should absolutely bump, and then making them extremely soft. So yes, I still stand by what I say. Carl could’ve done a better guitar solo, and Bruce could’ve done a better production job. KTSA and Carl’s first solo album had so much squandered potential
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Dec 7, 2020 21:57:43 GMT -5
Carl’s second solo album, on the other hand, is absolutely amazing.
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nater
Kahuna
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Post by nater on Dec 8, 2020 8:03:46 GMT -5
I'm aware of Bruce's successful career before, during, and post BBs (work with Melcher, Rip Chords, solo, etc) , but I've never heard that he worked with "Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Johnny Cash, The Byrds, and Simon & Garfunkel" Can i get an elaboration on that?
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Post by Mopp on Dec 8, 2020 8:44:33 GMT -5
Speaking of Mike's sax playing, here's a hot take of mine: the primitive saxophone blasts in the middle of Shut Down are an iconic Beach Boys moment. The best part of the song, really. The saxophone (basic as it may be) is the most memorable part of that boring, forgettable tune. Without a doubt my least favourite of the famous early tunes.
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Post by craigslowinski on Dec 8, 2020 9:13:41 GMT -5
I'm aware of Bruce's successful career before, during, and post BBs (work with Melcher, Rip Chords, solo, etc) , but I've never heard that he worked with "Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Johnny Cash, The Byrds, and Simon & Garfunkel" Can i get an elaboration on that? That's Bob Johnston. Different dude altogether.
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Post by craigslowinski on Dec 8, 2020 9:29:32 GMT -5
So.........since Carl presumably heard the final playback of the recording prior to release, do you not think that if he woulda thought he could do a better job than Joe, that he would have plugged his guitar in and done so? No. Even Bruce has said that KTSA, the song, could have been way better, but Carl insisted it be soft and meh. ” In 2013, Johnston expressed dissatisfaction with the production of the title track, which he perceived as being weaker-sounding due to Carl's intervention.” I love Carl, but he made some dumb decisions. His entire first solo album was another dumb decision, with the exception of the song Heaven. During this 1979-1981 period, Carl went through this phase of taking songs that should absolutely bump, and then making them extremely soft. So yes, I still stand by what I say. Carl could’ve done a better guitar solo, and Bruce could’ve done a better production job. KTSA and Carl’s first solo album had so much squandered potential Although Carl thought KTSA (the album) was one of their best efforts in a long time - as stated in his discussion with writer Geoffrey Himes in late 1982 - he still evidently felt it, and in particular the title track, could have sounded better: "I think we missed a little on the sound of that album, though. Like my tune, "Keepin' The Summer Alive', sounded a lot punchier on our live tapes than it did on record." So is it a case of Carl blaming Bruce and Bruce blaming Carl for the somewhat lackluster sound?
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