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Post by Mikie on Jan 29, 2023 20:20:32 GMT -5
Tell your wife the photo was taken at Capitol Studios, late November 1965.
Why? I was the won onedering about that.
I thought you and your wife were investigating Beach Boys history in 1965. You deleted that part! Won won onedering........
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Post by dauber on Jan 29, 2023 21:11:22 GMT -5
I didn't delete nothin'. We're both deep-diving, but I was the one who was wonderin'...
EDIT: that part was in a different thread.
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Post by Mikie on Jan 29, 2023 22:10:53 GMT -5
I didn't delete nothin'. We're both deep-diving, but I was the one who was wonderin'...
EDIT: that part was in a different thread.
Ah, here I am bouncing back and forth between this board and the playoff game on TV and lost my bearings. Anyway, you're welcome for the partial answer.
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Post by gigantiskpyjamas on Jan 31, 2023 2:43:39 GMT -5
I’m currently reading Kingsley Abbott’s book on Pet Sounds and on page 43-44 it says: “Brian taped the emerging musical ideas, and Asher took them home to work on lyrics or to add extra verses for the next day, when he and Brian edited, extended or refined them to fit the music.” Tapes of Brian and Tony at work on the songs for Pet Sounds sounds like holy grail stuff to me. The chance of any of these tapes surviving is remote I guess and if they had I’m sure they would’ve been used on the Sessions box set. I’m not sure there’s a question here… Apart from “does anyone have any more information?”. Think you've slightly misunderstood: the tapes Tony took home were of Brian working out his "feels", not a pukka songwriting session a la "Sail On, Sailor". At least, that's my take. I could be wrong: happened before. You’re probably right, but I’d love to hear stuff like this, even if it’s “only” Brian working on “feels”. 😍
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bjl
Dude/Dudette
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Post by bjl on Jan 31, 2023 12:46:08 GMT -5
Think you've slightly misunderstood: the tapes Tony took home were of Brian working out his "feels", not a pukka songwriting session a la "Sail On, Sailor". At least, that's my take. I could be wrong: happened before. You’re probably right, but I’d love to hear stuff like this, even if it’s “only” Brian working on “feels”. 😍 I would imagine that the Don't Talk demo is such a tape? Chord progressions that Tony could listen to while working out lyrics is what this description sounds like, and also what that demo sounds like to me!
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Post by jds on Feb 1, 2023 0:05:18 GMT -5
I imagine the working tapes were distinguishable from the "Don't Talk" piano demo by having Brian sing a guide vocal with wordless singing or incomplete lyrical ideas. (As far as I know Asher didn't come up with any vocal melodies on his own.)
The "Don't Talk" piano demo was 1) recorded months ahead of time and 2) given to the session players, IIRC.
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Post by dauber on Feb 27, 2023 16:56:06 GMT -5
Okay, something occurred to me...
Brian in March 1965 joined The Beach Boys for a trio of concerts -- two at the Arie Crown Theater at McCormick Place in Chicago, and a third in Cincinnati -- that were recorded for an intended live album. Now...something I had read somewhere was that the reason Brian joined the band for these shows was that Bruce could not be on the recordings because his contract with Columbia hadn't expired yet and ergo he couldn't perform on other records until his contract was up.
Which makes me wonder:
1) Bruce hadn't yet joined the group -- Glen was still Brian's road replacement at the time! But still, why would they have needed Brian?? Pretty sure Glen either wasn't signed or recorded for Capitol at the time anyway. Or is it simply that Glen was unable to make it?
2) Then explain why Bruce's voice can be heard loud and clear on "California Girls" and "God Only Knows." Or did his contract expire by then, but for whatever reason he wasn't allowed to be on an album cover??
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bjl
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Post by bjl on Feb 27, 2023 18:35:55 GMT -5
Okay, something occurred to me...
Brian in March 1965 joined The Beach Boys for a trio of concerts -- two at the Arie Crown Theater at McCormick Place in Chicago, and a third in Cincinnati -- that were recorded for an intended live album. Now...something I had read somewhere was that the reason Brian joined the band for these shows was that Bruce could not be on the recordings because his contract with Columbia hadn't expired yet and ergo he couldn't perform on other records until his contract was up.
Which makes me wonder:
1) Bruce hadn't yet joined the group -- Glen was still Brian's road replacement at the time! But still, why would they have needed Brian?? Pretty sure Glen either wasn't signed or recorded for Capitol at the time anyway. Or is it simply that Glen was unable to make it?
2) Then explain why Bruce's voice can be heard loud and clear on "California Girls" and "God Only Knows." Or did his contract expire by then, but for whatever reason he wasn't allowed to be on an album cover??
I've always wondered a little about the album cover thing myself - and if it was really a contractual thing or if that was just a convenient way to avoid the fact that the band wasn't ready to have a new guy on the covers? I really feel that Bruce's reputation would be a little bit different if he'd been on the cover of Summer Days and especially on Pet Sounds, which at this point is probably just as iconic an image as the Surfer Girl cover...
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sloopjohnb
Historian / Researcher
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Post by sloopjohnb on Feb 27, 2023 18:53:39 GMT -5
Brian played Chicago because it was a recording session for a Beach Boys album, which he set up. Why would he skip it?
Bruce's Columbia contract expired in the second half of 1967. Until then, he wasn't allowed to appear on front covers of albums on competing labels. Singing, touring, and appearing on the back covers were fine.
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west
Kahuna
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Post by west on Feb 27, 2023 19:50:57 GMT -5
Brian played Chicago because it was a recording session for a Beach Boys album, which he set up. Why would he skip it? Bruce's Columbia contract expired in the second half of 1967. Until then, he wasn't allowed to appear on front covers of albums on competing labels. Singing, touring, and appearing on the back covers were fine. Which explains why you can see him in a few photos on the back cover of Pet Sounds. It makes no difference to me, but they had Bruce on that sailboat with the boys for the Summer Days shoot (even in a picture or two that have surfaced since then), it would've been pretty cool for one of those photos to appear on the back cover of Summer Days. Oh well
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bjl
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Post by bjl on Feb 27, 2023 22:43:42 GMT -5
Brian played Chicago because it was a recording session for a Beach Boys album, which he set up. Why would he skip it? Bruce's Columbia contract expired in the second half of 1967. Until then, he wasn't allowed to appear on front covers of albums on competing labels. Singing, touring, and appearing on the back covers were fine. Thanks, I love it when someone comes along and just straightforwardly knows the answer to something I've been wondering about!
But man, I'm repeating myself at this point, but I think that contract clause hurt Bruce's career in a way that must have been really impossible to foresee or imagine at the time. I think if he'd been on the covers of those two records, he would be considered a "real" Beach Boy by pretty much everyone in a way that he's just sort of not. Perhaps I'm overestimating it, but I never thought of him as a member of the band when I was a kid obsessed with those records, I just thought of him as Brian's touring replacement, and I bet I would have if he'd been on the covers!
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Post by Al S on Feb 28, 2023 4:47:43 GMT -5
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Post by celticsurfer on Mar 1, 2023 10:05:56 GMT -5
Alias Sloop John B wrote that Bruce's Columbia contract expired in the second half of 1967. Until then, he wasn't allowed to appear on front covers of albums on competing labels. Singing, touring, and appearing on the back covers were fine.
Ok but he appeared on a lot of singles/EPs front picture sleeves all around the world! Strange contract indeed.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Mar 1, 2023 12:19:09 GMT -5
Alias Sloop John B wrote that Bruce's Columbia contract expired in the second half of 1967. Until then, he wasn't allowed to appear on front covers of albums on competing labels. Singing, touring, and appearing on the back covers were fine.
Ok but he appeared on a lot of singles/EPs front picture sleeves all around the world! Strange contract indeed.
I’d like to see a few of those covers. In Europe and Asia, many songs were released well after their initial release in the states. If the singles and EPs were released in late 67 or beyond, Bruce will appear. I have an album called Close-Up. It is Surfin’ USA and All Summer Long combined. It has a cover of the 1969 Beach Boys with Bruce and minus Brian.
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Post by celticsurfer on Mar 1, 2023 12:23:39 GMT -5
Just one example :the french 1966 good vibrations single.
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Post by celticsurfer on Mar 1, 2023 12:31:21 GMT -5
Give a look at beachboys45.nl. Many european singles of good vibrations and then I kissed her have Bruce on the front sleeve.
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bjl
Dude/Dudette
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Post by bjl on Mar 1, 2023 12:37:35 GMT -5
Without any specific knowledge about Bruce's contract and how it was drawn up, I would still say this is not surprising. Either the contract only applied domestically, or foreign record labels didn't know or care about the nuances of Bruce's contractual situation in the US. Both scenarios seem plausible to me.
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Post by Joshilyn Hoisington on Mar 2, 2023 13:55:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm sure that the worldwide record labels largely wouldn't need to worry about the non-compete part of Bruce's arrangement with Columbia. Either, as noted above, the contract covered the USA exclusively, or the cause of action would be too much of a hassle to litigate without a great payoff. Even if Bruce had broken that contract in the US, what are the consequences, really? Columbia fires him? Cease-and-desist and make them print new covers?
Anyway, I'm a lawyer so I'm always happy to discuss legal counterfactuals in BBs history...
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Post by AGD on Mar 2, 2023 14:34:53 GMT -5
For several months in 1965/66, Bruce was recording for both The Beach Boys and Bruce & Terry, thus (BB in bold): 5-24-65 You're So Good To Me/And Your Dream Comes True
5-25-65 The Girl From New York City 6-4-65 California Girls/Let Him Run Wild
7-2-65 Four Strong Winds 7-9-65 Raining In My Heart 7-29-65 You're So Good To Me [Bruce solo]
9-8-65 PARTY ! session 9-14-65 PARTY ! session 9-15-65 PARTY ! session 9-23-65 PARTY ! session 10-13-65 The Little Girl I Once Knew10-22-65 Thank You Baby/Come Love 12-29-65 Sloop John B [?]
2-15-66 Don't Run Away/Girl, It's Alright Now 2-16-66 Wouldn't It be Nice/You Still Believe In Me/Hang On To Your Ego
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Post by Mikie on Mar 2, 2023 14:49:21 GMT -5
The thing I always wondered about was..........why there were so many 60's live albums recorded for intended release. Or maybe some of them were not intended for release?
They recorded live at the Sacramento Memorial Auditorium in late 1963 and again in the Summer of 1964. The live album was compiled from those concerts and released in 1964 (even after Brian acknowledging that the live band wasn't up to snuff and having re-recorded two or three of the tracks back at Western before release). Then they recorded in March, 1965 in Chicago. Then they recorded in Michigan in October, 1966 (supposedly a Pet Sounds promo tour but they only played the hits). Then they recorded in August/September in Hawaii and L.A. (that was incomplete) Then the Fall Tour on the East Coast in 1967 (where they played stuff off Wild Honey). Then in England in late 1968 for the Live In London release in 1969 (but not in the U.S. until 1976).
I can understand that the setlists contained tracks from their most recent albums to promote them. Brian even flew out to a couple of the venues to rehearse the band. But why else would they record the band almost every year that they toured in the 60's? For intended release or was there a simple answer as the band wanted to listen to the tapes later to hear how they sounded live?
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Post by jasonaustin on Mar 2, 2023 21:10:32 GMT -5
For several months in 1965/66, Bruce was recording for both The Beach Boys and Bruce & Terry, thus (BB in bold): 5-24-65 You're So Good To Me/And Your Dream Comes True
5-25-65 The Girl From New York City 6-4-65 California Girls/Let Him Run Wild
7-2-65 Four Strong Winds 7-9-65 Raining In My Heart 7-29-65 You're So Good To Me [Bruce solo]
9-8-65 PARTY ! session 9-14-65 PARTY ! session 9-15-65 PARTY ! session 9-23-65 PARTY ! session 10-13-65 The Little Girl I Once Knew10-22-65 Thank You Baby/Come Love 12-29-65 Sloop John B [?]
2-15-66 Don't Run Away/Girl, It's Alright Now 2-16-66 Wouldn't It be Nice/You Still Believe In Me/Hang On To Your Ego
Strong run of songs, there.
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Post by ian on Mar 2, 2023 22:13:05 GMT -5
I assume that Brian was under a lot of pressure in 65 and momentarily thought of fulfilling Capitol’s insatiable demand for product by making another live album. However, he was such a perfectionist at that time that he probably wasn’t that satisfied with the tapes and in the fall he came up with a better idea-the Party album. In 66 he may have contemplated relieving the pressure to deliver Smile by putting out the Michigan LP but that is just a guess. Clearly he got consumed with Smile and forgot about it. Brian himself said at the time that they were recording a live album in Hawaii in 67 but it’s also clear that they were underwhelmed by those tapes —as they set about recording a studio remake of the concert in September. It’s usually assumed that the lagging sales of Smiley Smile made them scrap the plan and get going with Wild Honey. Desper told me that the autumn 67 and summer 68 tapes were indeed mainly recorded so the band could listen to themselves rather than with any plan to release them.
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sloopjohnb
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Post by sloopjohnb on Mar 2, 2023 22:27:41 GMT -5
Anything recorded on multi-track tape would've been done with the intent of releasing a live album. Chuck Britz recorded the shows in 1963-65, Capitol engineers were sent out to capture the Michigan concert, and Jim Lockert made the trip to Hawaii in 1967. Bruce even made a comment (I think in late '67 or early '68?) that the Beach Boys were going to put out a live album using some of the Thanksgiving tour material, which was initially recorded in mono for reference.
I think Brian Wilson being a perfectionist, and being more invested in his new original projects (Summer Days, then Smile, then Wild Honey) is what delayed/stopped more live albums from coming out. I agree that the Party album was a sort of compromise, as everyone talked about that as a 'live' album at the time.
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Post by Rick Bartlett on Mar 3, 2023 4:40:47 GMT -5
For several months in 1965/66, Bruce was recording for both The Beach Boys and Bruce & Terry, thus (BB in bold): You're So Good To Me/And Your Dream Comes True
The Girl From New York City Let Him Run Wild
Sloop John B Wouldn't It be Nice/You Still Believe In Me/Hang On To Your Ego
Wow, when you put it like that! I never really considered or even remember hearing Bruce even slightly audible in any of those recordings, and what wonderful recordings they are. I find his voice pretty hard to pull out of a mix anyway, even on a good day...
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Post by WillJC on Mar 3, 2023 5:11:20 GMT -5
For several months in 1965/66, Bruce was recording for both The Beach Boys and Bruce & Terry, thus (BB in bold): You're So Good To Me/And Your Dream Comes True
The Girl From New York City Let Him Run Wild
Sloop John B Wouldn't It be Nice/You Still Believe In Me/Hang On To Your Ego
Wow, when you put it like that! I never really considered or even remember hearing Bruce even slightly audible in any of those recordings, and what wonderful recordings they are. I find his voice pretty hard to pull out of a mix anyway, even on a good day... Bruce is on much more of Summer Days and Pet Sounds than that. Him not being part of the vocal group was a rare exception from the moment he got off of that first tour.
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