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Post by EST583JRX on Jun 13, 2022 12:21:59 GMT -5
Listen: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/shadows-in-the-limelight/id1590610205I thought this podcast merited its own thread since Howie reveals a lot about what's going on with the compilations and BRI. It's informative no matter your opinion of the mastering or Howie's music tastes. As I've posted before, he's an impassioned fan, just like the other posters on this public forum, and he's entitled to his opinions and conjecture, just like the other posters on this public forum. To keep everyone on the same page, I'm copying over some posts from the recent Sounds of Summer thread, starting with my partial transcription of the highlights. I've bolded some lines that I felt were particularly notable. If you want personal commentary as to the significance of these remarks and their possible implications on future archival releases, I've already given two cents. I don't necessarily share the views of everyone who is complaining about the recent mixes, nor do I disagree with all of the things Howie has expressed. I'm not part of a mob who wants Howie's head on a stick. I'm just one random fan, posting on a forum, wondering why these mixes sound the way that they do. It should go without saying that younger fans will regard some of Howie's claims as questionable at best and highly debatable at worst , but altogether worrying . Howie did not anticipate the resultant controversy (is this an indication of what he knows about younger fans?) and promptly responded with this: IS it arrogant? Did Dennis do the absolute final mix on "Baby Blue"? Have you heard the tapes? Do YOU know what elements were left off the released version? I'm not arrogant, nor am I rude. I don't give many compliments but when I do -- they're legit. Go listen to your L.A. two-fer on 6/17. Man. Such vitriol. That's what what my interview talking about The Beach Boys inspired? THAT'S the take-away from, what, 40 minutes talking about The Beach Boys? All this anger. All this pain. Jesus. Going out to play with my kids then dinner with my wife. You guys should do the same. Life's short. Stop buggin' about records. No. I'm not saying that. [editor's note: Howie never clarified the thing(s) he is claiming he didn't say.]
If you listened (and heard) my interview, you would know we're all trying our best.
We're all trying to do right by a catalogue that was left to wither for years. Zero care.
A LOTTA people have been happy with the work we've done from SUNSHINE TOMORROW on. Tons of unearthed material we all now have forever (e.g. POOPS/HUBBA HUBBA.)
What I AM saying is -- don't be ugly. Don't be a dick about Rock.
So much amazing shit is happening -- and I'm somehow the enemy for mixes YOU don't like?
If this, sadly, is the trade-off between being the person who would wait at midnight for a new release or now being part of the team that help puts it together, it sucks -- but I'll take this "side" of the fence.
That said -- it's Saturday. We only get one a week.
I'm gonna enjoy it.
Later. |
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Post by Rick Bartlett on Jun 13, 2022 12:45:49 GMT -5
Geez!
Haven't we done enough already in the other thread? I think we've made our points very clear there already.
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Post by EST583JRX on Jun 13, 2022 14:19:31 GMT -5
Thanks. This thread was created for the sake of posterity. Some posters may not have bothered contributing to the other thread because they were simply unaware of this podcast, let alone the controversy it caused, or perhaps they were overwhelmed by the 14 pages of dialogue and confusion.
I wanted to give a proper space for Howie's original comments to be heard. That's the right thing to do, isn't it? If you have any further thoughts or insights, feel free to share them here.
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Post by tomtomplayboy on Jun 13, 2022 15:07:56 GMT -5
Thanks. This thread was created for the sake of posterity. Some posters may not have bothered contributing to the other thread because they were simply unaware of this podcast, let alone the controversy it caused, or perhaps they were overwhelmed by the 14 pages of dialogue and confusion. I wanted to give a proper space for Howie's original comments to be heard. That's the right thing to do, isn't it? If you have any further thoughts or insights, feel free to share them here. I think it was sensible to do this so well done. I understand your motives. I often avoid threads if they've been going on too long, even if it's a subject that interests me, simply because it can be time-consuming and convoluted trying to get up to speed on what has and hasn't been said. And, yeah, Howie's comments in the podcast interview really are deeply concerning for multiple reasons. |
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Post by EST583JRX on Jun 13, 2022 15:13:39 GMT -5
I love this band and I hope they're not lost and forgotten someday. This might be the wrong place to post this, but I strongly feel that a lot of people reading this forum - including both fans and insiders (yes, I know they're not mutually exclusive) - could benefit from considering the perspectives of people who are (mostly) unrelated to what is essentially just a tiny space within the wider popular music discourse (i.e. the Beach Boys' "network") and people who have challenged standard music industry doctrine (read on). One of Mark Linett's first bosses, Frank Zappa, once gave a very amusing (or dark, depending on your sense of humor) university speech where he made remarks about industry executives who spend their resources thinking about the hypothetical desires of imagined young people, among other things. Zappa's an acclaimed composer/performer and, in terms of whether younger generations still care about him, was quite successful at arts, craft, and entrepreneurship. He had decades of experience working from both within and outside the music industry. His insight has gotta be worth something. I want to share an excerpt from Zappa's speech, as I believe it speaks to the "let's mix it for the 23-year-old" dogma. Of course, the only way you can draw a meaningful parallel between Zappa's sentiments and the sentiments of many music fans today depends on your opinions of the modern music industry. Again, is this the correct avenue for this type of discussion? I don't know. All I want is to ensure that you, the reader of this post, is given the opportunity to mull on the values espoused by the officially appointed creative consultant for the Beach Boys' archival releases. And then consider those values in light of everything you've ever heard, read, felt, perceived, learned, and thought about music and its history. |
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Post by tomtomplayboy on Jun 14, 2022 2:51:39 GMT -5
The more I read this particular quote, the more I find myself scratching my head:
The production didn't match the quality of the performance and the material. The weak link in a lot of stuff was a shitty mix and bad mastering. So what I was saying to Linett was, "You need to be the producer that they never had then. You need to be the guy that's hearing all that stuff and realizing it. Be the guy in the corner that they needed.
Sunflower was one of the best sounding, best mixed and best mastered albums in the Beach Boys catalogue. Mike Love himself even acknowledges the quality of the production in his autobiography. It is only the 2019 remaster that has production issues. So Howie's take is completely topsy-turvy. The album sounded fine until the 'shitty mix and bad mastering' that was added in 2019.
And if that sounds disrespectful to the work that Mark Linett and co put into the remaster, it's no more disrespectful than Howie suggesting the production skills of the Wilson brothers - the Wilson brothers - weren't up to scratch.
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rjm
Kahuna
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Post by rjm on Jun 14, 2022 3:00:34 GMT -5
I’m sorry, but at this point, it just feels like a pile on for the sake of a pile on.
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Post by Rick Bartlett on Jun 14, 2022 3:07:37 GMT -5
Here's another recent interview with Howie, again, he has some interesting views, some of which I understand, but some I disagree with. I think he really underestimates the complexity of this group and he really needs to study before speaking.
He makes a point of them never making it to 'FM' radio, which we have found out from our members here, including '@'filledeplage', they were certainly on FM radio. There was little in terms of publications, but I've seen many myself from the 70's, and I wasn't there! For a 'creative consultant', he really should be checking in with people that 'were' there and fact checking before
compiling conclusions that are incorrect.
He is dismissive of the early years of The Beach Boys, and admits he didn't like that era but he likes it now.
He himself, doesn't like Mono, it reminds him too much of 50's doo wop. Clearly he is trying to distant the band from the music of the 1950's, which to be fair, they are almost a product of, in the attempts to make the band 'more cool' like The Who,The Stones etc etc I've never been a fan of trying to rewrite history...
In his defense though, he speaks greatly of Wild Honey, Friends, CATP and even 15 Big One's and he speaks solidly of the 70's period onward. We all have different opinions, but this interview shows more of the side of Howie that is compassionate about the 70's moving forward. Apart from the other interview, I thought it should be good to hold this into equal account of what 'Howie Say's' to contrast.
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Post by ironhorseapples on Jun 14, 2022 4:07:59 GMT -5
Well, in light of this interview, in which Howie makes it clear that we, the very people who have remained loyal to this band throughout the years, who have bought the products and spread the word, are NOT the target audience anymore, I for one will be boycotting any future release.
He has made it crystal clear this is not for us, and that our concerns and criticisms are not to be heeded. That's absolutely fine, I won't buy it, I won't stream it, I will treat any future products with the same contempt which is being shown to us.
Good luck with attracting those 22 year olds by eschewing the 60's era of the band, that irrelevant period overseen by that idiot Brian Wilson. But don't worry everyone. Howie, and the team are now the 'producer' the boys deserved all those years. Yuck, all that mono rubbish, chuck it away, we know what the kids want.
Mark, throw that tatty 1176 compressor away, what we want is Waves compression! And don't worry about adjusting the settings, just use the presets, that's what they're for! Yes, we know what the kids want.
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Post by ironhorseapples on Jun 14, 2022 4:27:19 GMT -5
In case you've guessed I'm vein-throbbingly apoplectic over the remark that the Beach Boys now have 'the producer they never had'. Not only does it seek to diminish Brian Wilson, it is also extremely offensive to Chuck Britz and Stephen Desper.
Forget Desper's matrix, we're now in the effing matrix
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rjm
Kahuna
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Post by rjm on Jun 14, 2022 5:39:10 GMT -5
Well, in light of this interview, in which Howie makes it clear that we, the very people who have remained loyal to this band throughout the years, who have bought the products and spread the word, are NOT the target audience anymore, I for one will be boycotting any future release. He has made it crystal clear this is not for us, and that our concerns and criticisms are not to be heeded. That's absolutely fine, I won't buy it, I won't stream it, I will treat any future products with the same contempt which is being shown to us. Good luck with attracting those 22 year olds by eschewing the 60's era of the band, that irrelevant period overseen by that idiot Brian Wilson. But don't worry everyone. Howie, and the team are now the 'producer' the boys deserved all those years. Yuck, all that mono rubbish, chuck it away, we know what the kids want. Mark, throw that tatty 1176 compressor away, what we want is Waves compression! And don't worry about adjusting the settings, just use the presets, that's what they're for! Yes, we know what the kids want. You do realize Greatest Hits albums are not, nor have they ever have been targeted to diehard fans. |
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Post by ironhorseapples on Jun 14, 2022 5:44:07 GMT -5
Well, in light of this interview, in which Howie makes it clear that we, the very people who have remained loyal to this band throughout the years, who have bought the products and spread the word, are NOT the target audience anymore, I for one will be boycotting any future release. He has made it crystal clear this is not for us, and that our concerns and criticisms are not to be heeded. That's absolutely fine, I won't buy it, I won't stream it, I will treat any future products with the same contempt which is being shown to us. Good luck with attracting those 22 year olds by eschewing the 60's era of the band, that irrelevant period overseen by that idiot Brian Wilson. But don't worry everyone. Howie, and the team are now the 'producer' the boys deserved all those years. Yuck, all that mono rubbish, chuck it away, we know what the kids want. Mark, throw that tatty 1176 compressor away, what we want is Waves compression! And don't worry about adjusting the settings, just use the presets, that's what they're for! Yes, we know what the kids want. You do realize Greatest Hits albums are not, nor have they ever have been targeted to diehard fans. Good point, but I think Howie's remarks make it clear this is a direction which will pervade all future releases. I realise some of my comments this morning are provocative. Howie's interview has irked me, what can I say? This is just one diehard fan nailing his colours to the mast, drawing a line in the sand and other appropriately nautical metaphors. I have no doubt this will be read by those at IM, and I equally have no doubt it will be dismissed. But I have been heard, and that is the important thing |
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Post by filledeplage on Jun 14, 2022 6:22:58 GMT -5
Well, in light of this interview, in which Howie makes it clear that we, the very people who have remained loyal to this band throughout the years, who have bought the products and spread the word, are NOT the target audience anymore, I for one will be boycotting any future release. He has made it crystal clear this is not for us, and that our concerns and criticisms are not to be heeded. That's absolutely fine, I won't buy it, I won't stream it, I will treat any future products with the same contempt which is being shown to us. Good luck with attracting those 22 year olds by eschewing the 60's era of the band, that irrelevant period overseen by that idiot Brian Wilson. But don't worry everyone. Howie, and the team are now the 'producer' the boys deserved all those years. Yuck, all that mono rubbish, chuck it away, we know what the kids want. Mark, throw that tatty 1176 compressor away, what we want is Waves compression! And don't worry about adjusting the settings, just use the presets, that's what they're for! Yes, we know what the kids want. You do realize Greatest Hits albums are not, nor have they ever have been targeted to diehard fans. Only if there was an orphan song such as The Little Girl I Once Knew on it. 😂🎶 |
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Post by filledeplage on Jun 14, 2022 6:29:06 GMT -5
I’m sorry, but at this point, it just feels like a pile on for the sake of a pile on. It is not - it is an attempt to correct-the-record and ensure that there is an historically correct, frame-of-reference that is integral to the release and not an afterthought. |
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Post by ironhorseapples on Jun 14, 2022 6:56:09 GMT -5
I’m sorry, but at this point, it just feels like a pile on for the sake of a pile on. It is not - it is an attempt to correct-the-record and ensure that there is an historically correct, frame-of-reference that is integral to the release and not an afterthought. Yes, and also an attempt by the actual group of people who buy these releases to voice concerns they have. These concerns will of course fall on deaf ears, because hey, what do we know? We're just the schmucks who are expected to gratefully lap up all these releases like good little consumers. And then we'll get threatened by this stick that says we should be grateful, and that we're lucky to be getting these releases, and that complaining about the quality will threaten subsequent releases. We're threatened by the ominous cloud of being seen as entitledWell yes actually. As the consumers we are entitled to good quality releases which do not threaten or seek to diminish this thing that we love. We're the ones parting with the money to buy these boxed sets. They're not doing us a favour, quite the opposite actually. |
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Post by filledeplage on Jun 14, 2022 7:45:33 GMT -5
It is not - it is an attempt to correct-the-record and ensure that there is an historically correct, frame-of-reference that is integral to the release and not an afterthought. Yes, and also an attempt by the actual group of people who buy these releases to voice concerns they have. These concerns will of course fall on deaf ears, because hey, what do we know? We're just the schmucks who are expected to gratefully lap up all these releases like good little consumers. And then we'll get threatened by this stick that says we should be grateful, and that we're lucky to be getting these releases, and that complaining about the quality will threaten subsequent releases. We're threatened by the ominous cloud of being seen as entitledWell yes actually. As the consumers we are entitled to good quality releases which do not threaten or seek to diminish this thing that we love. We're the ones parting with the money to buy these boxed sets. They're not doing us a favour, quite the opposite actually. Much of it is copyright extension, because it is date specific and year specific. CopEx - which protects and extends the intellectual property rights of the band/and other authors/composers, to shield it from becoming part of the public domain. It is part of their intellectual property rights that they are asserting. It is not for the young-uns and should not be advanced or represented in that manner. It could enhance what is available to future generations. And hopefully part of their Estate Planning to ensure that their children will benefit from their work. |
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Post by boogieboarder on Jun 14, 2022 8:51:09 GMT -5
If you think this reimagining of the Beach Boys mixing and mastering is bad, it’s the same with The Beatles. Some people in the media and on this board have praised the new Beatles mixes on Sgt. Pepper, The White Album, Abbey Road, Let it Be, and Hollywood Bowl by Giles Martin, but believe me, these are revisionist mixes that belie the intentions and artistry of the original George Martin mixes and mastering, which were apparently done in order to accommodate the perceived preferences of streaming teenagers.
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Post by dauber on Jun 14, 2022 8:55:24 GMT -5
...believe me, these are revisionist mixes that belie the intentions and artistry of the original George Martin mixes and mastering, which were apparently done in order to accommodate the perceived preferences of streaming teenagers.
The remixes are doing what technology can do now that it couldn't do -- or could do, but with so much work and effort that it'd miss deadline after deadline -- that certainly Sir George, Geoff Emerick, etc., certainly would have done (such as synching up the unreduced session tapes) had they been able to.
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Post by boogieboarder on Jun 14, 2022 9:06:22 GMT -5
...believe me, these are revisionist mixes that belie the intentions and artistry of the original George Martin mixes and mastering, which were apparently done in order to accommodate the perceived preferences of streaming teenagers.
The remixes are doing what technology can do now that it couldn't do -- or could do, but with so much work and effort that it'd miss deadline after deadline -- that certainly Sir George, Geoff Emerick, etc., certainly would have done (such as synching up the unreduced session tapes) had they been able to.
The changes to the original mixes go far beyond doing what George Martin might have done if he had today’s technology. No syncing was required to mix the later albums I listed like The White Album, Abbey Road and Let it Be. If they wanted overpowering bass or more compression, George Martin could have done it on the original releases. Giles vastly increased the volume of “Long Long Long” which was originally deliberately included at a lower volume after “Helter Skelter.” There’s a lot of brickwalling. These are artistic decisions made to accommodate what is perceived to be today’s desires of listeners. |
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Post by dauber on Jun 14, 2022 9:22:46 GMT -5
Mark Lewisohn's book sure tells a different story when it talks about the reduction mixes that were done on those albums, though.
But anyway...just for fun....here's "Long Long Long"'s wave form, from the 2009 master (top) and the 2018 remix (bottom - and I hate that horrid song so much that even if they DID brickwall it -- which this shows they most certainly did not -- I wouldn't care; they can throw its master tape actually into a brick wall and I'll be happy)....in fact, it looks like they only place they really tampered with the volume was at the very end with the rattling wine bottle and that weird howl.
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Post by boogieboarder on Jun 14, 2022 9:37:12 GMT -5
Mark Lewisohn's book sure tells a different story when it talks about the reduction mixes that were done on those albums, though.
But anyway...just for fun....here's "Long Long Long"'s wave form, from the 2009 master (top) and the 2018 remix (bottom - and I hate that horrid song so much that even if they DID brickwall it -- which this shows they most certainly did not -- I wouldn't care; they can throw its master tape actually into a brick wall and I'll be happy)....in fact, it looks like they only place they really tampered with the volume was at the very end with the rattling wine bottle and that weird howl.
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Don’t use the 2009 CDs for a reference. Those had increased volume. You have to go back to the original 1987-1988 CDs, or the original vinyl from the 60s and 70s. |
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Post by ironhorseapples on Jun 14, 2022 9:41:38 GMT -5
Ironically, as I am definitely in the 'moaning' camp regarding the Beach Boy remixes, I do actually prefer the new Beatles mixes. I may have to give this matter some thought.  Initially though, to my ears the Beatles remixes, whilst still revisionary are still a lot more faithful to the originals. Crucially, there is not this overreliance on plugins. Giles Martin tried to use the original hardware wherever possible. They used the original RS124 compressors and you can tell. These are much more authentic mixes which adopt the ethos Mark employed on the '97 Pet Sounds mix. That being said, I am far less emotionally invested in the Beatles catalogue, and that definitely needs factoring in. |
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Post by dauber on Jun 14, 2022 9:46:37 GMT -5
Don’t use the 2009 CDs for a reference. Those had increased volume. You have to go back to the original 1987-1988 CDs, or the original vinyl from the 60s and 70s.
Except for Revolver and SPLHCB, the 1987 CDs were total garbage. Even Dr. Ebbetts declared the 2009 CDs to be definitive and said that's why he retired.
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Post by ironhorseapples on Jun 14, 2022 9:50:23 GMT -5
Don’t use the 2009 CDs for a reference. Those had increased volume. You have to go back to the original 1987-1988 CDs, or the original vinyl from the 60s and 70s.
Except for Revolver and SPLHCB, the 1987 CDs were total garbage. Even Dr. Ebbetts declared the 2009 CDs to be definitive and said that's why he retired.
Isn't Dr Ebbetts a song on Revolver? |
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Post by Mikie on Jun 14, 2022 10:03:57 GMT -5
No. The Dr. Ebbetts series were bootleg CD's complete with artwork and essentially virgin vinyl needle drops. They were fantastic. I still have most of the 'releases' in the collection. The go-to prior to the formal 2009 remastered album releases in stereo.
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IS it arrogant? Did Dennis do the absolute final mix on "Baby Blue"? Have you heard the tapes? Do YOU know what elements were left off the released version?
