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Post by boogieboarder on Jun 12, 2022 10:11:37 GMT -5
This whole 'we need to save the Beach Boys future' line is so obviously nonsense. Firstly, the 2003 Sounds of Summer has been selling ridiculously well for almost a decade now, and it continues to sell well. The Beach Boys music sells. They remain hugely popular, among all age groups (just look in the comments section on YouTube beneath any of their most famous songs and the comments are filled with people saying "I'm 13 and I LOVE the Beach Boys" and "I'm a 20-year-old female student and the Beach Boys are my favourite band"). But even if you buy into the idea that the Beach Boys music does somehow need saving, how on earth does smothering great albums and songs with unpleasant digital-sounding compression and treble make their survival more likely? The bulk of the records Sounds Of Summer sold was when commercial oldies radio was still playing 60’s hits. The format changes when the demographic changes. When oldies radio was playing 60’s hits in the 80’s and 90’s, the original audiences were in their 40’s. Today, oldies radio is now hits from the 90’s because those kids who bought Spice Hirls and Britney and Backstreet Boys are now either in their 40’s or are approaching their 40’s. The BB’s oldies radio contemporaries like the Beatles and the Stones also have traditionally had a home on classic rock radio in addition to oldies. The BB never had that ever. Their currency in the marketplace survived in spite of that, but for how much longer? The Beatles, of all acts, saw their most revered albums all drop when Rolling Stone updated their Greatest Albums list. And all,I think because the voters in that poll were all younger and probably saw the Beatles as just one of the greats as opposed to The Greats. Of course, that all changed when Apple and Peter Jackson released Get Back (the Beatles immediately became cool once again to a new generation all because Peter Jackson edited all of the Get Back footage to tell a linear story). This is what I think Howie is referring to when he says the BB future needs to be saved. And that means presenting the music in a way that would not have been done 30 years ago. What’s a “radio?”
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Post by filledeplage on Jun 12, 2022 10:23:34 GMT -5
Trying to imagine how in the world “Get Back” made the Beatles cool again. Was there A time in recent history where they just weren’t? I mean I know it was a nice promo push but from everything I’ve found, all of their releases from the two decades before get back were all major successes, including all of the 50th anniversary super Deluxe Editions over the past five years or so Aside from a wobble in the 1980s, the Beatles have been consistently hugely popular since the 1960s, and they remain so today. Get Back hasn't restored their popularity because they were already hugely popular. The documentary itself was a success because the Beatles are still so loved, not vice versa. And, as you say, Beatles products continue to sell in huge numbers. At some point it is a matter of whether it was a daily diet music menu (as it was from the 60s fans forward, and that includes The Beatles) or an occasional listen by current and future generations. Everyone wants a piece-of-the-action in a legal context, to assure continuity of royalty flow to the heirs, and guarding of copyrights not expiring to go to the public domain. On some level, it is something shiny, new, and repacked, with diminishing returns. They want a slice and they should. And, there is Estate Planning to consider which is no different from these other major catalogs that have been sold. You can go back and reclaim after several decades and how they reclaimed their catalog, after several decades, so that will be up to the successor heirs.
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Post by tomtomplayboy on Jun 12, 2022 10:48:15 GMT -5
Aside from a wobble in the 1980s, the Beatles have been consistently hugely popular since the 1960s, and they remain so today. Get Back hasn't restored their popularity because they were already hugely popular. The documentary itself was a success because the Beatles are still so loved, not vice versa. And, as you say, Beatles products continue to sell in huge numbers. exactly. Also: The Beatles, of all acts, saw their most revered albums all drop when Rolling Stone updated their Greatest Albums list. And all,I think because the voters in that poll were all younger and probably saw the Beatles as just one of the greats as opposed to The Greats. I’m not sure how One publications list of best albums of all time means anything in the grand scheme of things. And even then, the Beatles still had an album in the top five, and several albums throughout the entire list itself. To me that’s absolutely *not* any type of sign of their decline in importance and stature, simply because… There hasn’t been one. Yep, the standing of Sgt Pepper has fallen slightly in recent decades, but this has largely been because the standing of other Beach Boys albums has risen by comparison (Revolver, Rubber Soul, the White Album, Abbey Road). Also, Rolling Stone magazine is truly awful these days, and I'm fairly certain it is going to become redundant long before the Beatles ever do.
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Post by EST583JRX on Jun 12, 2022 10:54:27 GMT -5
Listened to this and noted some of the more revealing details about Howie and where his mind is at. Bolding for emphasis. To summarize, Howie is implying that "FM" and "AM" designations still matter in 2022. He also thinks that the Beach Boys deserve the kind of validation and appreciation that a rock magazine from 1967 would afford to, say for example, Jefferson Airplane and the Doors. Rolling Stone, wow, what a gold standard to follow. Does Howie understand that the pages of rock magazines, historically, have had very little to do with appreciating timeless art, and everything to do with advertising a disposable product? Who knows. But let's move on to his next point. Howie wants to "unscrew" the Beach Boys, even though, as he already notes, the band are already regarded as one of the sacred cows of the 20th century. So what is there really left to "unscrew"? Well, apparently, we need to frame the Beach Boys the same way pop culture frames every other rock group. Are you with me so far? Howie's basically saying, "The Beach Boys are the greatest band of all time. But you know what would make them even better? If they were just like everybody below them!" These comments are surely controversial enough to merit their own thread. But one of the more interesting implications is that Howie doesn't consider Weezer to be "cool." Yet he would have you believe that he's totally in touch with today's youth. Yes, Howie, the kids are just dying to rock out to Student Demonstration Time. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong here. But it does leave me with an image of Howie urging Mark to compress, much the same way Murry would demand Brian to surge. This counterargument falls apart as soon as you consider the fact that many of these tracks have never been released before. "C'mon, Mark, treble up!"
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Post by filledeplage on Jun 12, 2022 11:03:45 GMT -5
exactly. Also: I’m not sure how One publications list of best albums of all time means anything in the grand scheme of things. And even then, the Beatles still had an album in the top five, and several albums throughout the entire list itself. To me that’s absolutely *not* any type of sign of their decline in importance and stature, simply because… There hasn’t been one. Yep, the standing of Sgt Pepper has fallen slightly in recent decades, but this has largely been because the standing of other Beach Boys albums has risen by comparison (Revolver, Rubber Soul, the White Album, Abbey Road). Also, Rolling Stone magazine is truly awful these days, and I'm fairly certain it is going to become redundant long before the Beatles ever do. Their (Rolling Stone) past is checkered where individual Beatles are concerned. Publications are only as neutral as those journalists who are writing in them. Pet Sounds had very poor marketing in real time and yet, it crept along, inexorably and rose like cream, to the top. It is as emblematic as The Turtle and The Hare. Slow and steady wins the race.
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Post by Jason (The Real Beach Boy) on Jun 12, 2022 11:10:26 GMT -5
Nail these new mixes to the fucking cross; they're dead on arrival.
These new singles just drive home even further just how good the 2017-18 period was as far as sound quality, to say nothing about revelations and other nerdy minutiae that we love to hear. Feel Flows was bad enough sonically; if these new singles are any indication, it appears to be a "hold my beer" moment as far as dicey mixing goes.
If this is what "the young people want to listen to," well, then I don't blame them for wanting to stay away.
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Post by Mikie on Jun 12, 2022 11:11:12 GMT -5
Listened to this and noted some of the more revealing details about Howie and where his mind is at. Bolding for emphasis. To summarize, Howie is implying that "FM" and "AM" designations still matter in 2022. He also thinks that the Beach Boys deserve the kind of validation and appreciation that a rock magazine from 1967 would afford to, say for example, Jefferson Airplane and the Doors. Rolling Stone, wow, what a gold standard to follow. Does Howie understand that the pages of rock magazines, historically, have had very little to do with appreciating timeless art, and everything to do with advertising a disposable product? Who knows. But let's move on to his next point. Howie wants to "unscrew" the Beach Boys, even though, as he already notes, the band are already regarded as one of the sacred cows of the 20th century. So what is there really left to "unscrew"? Well, apparently, we need to frame the Beach Boys the same way pop culture frames every other rock group. Are you with me so far? Howie's basically saying, "The Beach Boys are the greatest band of all time. But you know what would make them even better? If they were just like everybody below them!" These comments are surely controversial enough to merit their own thread. But one of the more interesting implications is that Howie doesn't consider Weezer to be "cool." Yet he would have you believe that he's totally in touch with today's youth. Yes, Howie, the kids are just dying to rock out to Student Demonstration Time. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong here. But it does leave me with an image of Howie urging Mark to compress, much the same way Murry would demand Brian to surge. This counterargument falls apart as soon as you consider the fact that many of these tracks have never been released before. "C'mon, Mark, treble up!"Another good post with many good points that are on the money.
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Post by tomtomplayboy on Jun 12, 2022 11:28:07 GMT -5
Howie: "So what I was saying to Linett was, 'You need to be the producer that they never had then'."
Hang on, weren't the Wilson brothers largely producing themselves during this period? So... Howie thinks that he can retrospectively oversee record production better than the Wilson brothers?
The results over the last two years would suggest otherwise.
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Post by EST583JRX on Jun 12, 2022 11:28:41 GMT -5
I think it needs to be stressed that while the majority of fans may strongly disagree with Howie's opinions, the issue of music taste is completely different from the issue of poor mixing.
The key problem is digital EQ and compression. Everything else is A-OK. Put the tambourines in the center if you want. Just stop setting the plug-in values to 9999.
These comps should be treated like preservation projects from a distinguished library, not like a commercial product aimed at some imaginary 23-year-old.
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Post by Jason (The Real Beach Boy) on Jun 12, 2022 11:30:58 GMT -5
"In order to protect the legacy we must release stuff that sounds like dogshit because all the cool kids." - someone, somewhere in a high place
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Post by tomtomplayboy on Jun 12, 2022 11:33:35 GMT -5
I think it needs to be stressed that while the majority of fans may strongly disagree with Howie's opinions, the issue of music taste is completely different from the issue of poor mixing. The key problem is digital EQ and compression. Everything else is A-OK. Put the tambourines in the center if you want. Just stop setting the plug-in values to 9999. These comps should be treated like preservation projects from a distinguished library, not like a commercial product aimed at some imaginary 23-year-old. THIS EXACTLY.
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Post by boogieboarder on Jun 12, 2022 11:36:20 GMT -5
Go to a Beach Boys concert, and you’ll see the young crowd standing and dancing and cheering songs about mom and dad and high school, and not so much about taking a load off your feet.
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Post by addsomemusic43 on Jun 12, 2022 11:38:30 GMT -5
I think it needs to be stressed that while the majority of fans may strongly disagree with Howie's opinions, the issue of music taste is completely different from the issue of poor mixing. The key problem is digital EQ and compression. Everything else is A-OK. Put the tambourines in the center if you want. Just stop setting the plug-in values to 9999. These comps should be treated like preservation projects from a distinguished library, not like a commercial product aimed at some imaginary 23-year-old. And on top of that point, the majority of 20 something year olds are not going to buy a new Beach Boys box set because they “finally got the new sound they deserved back in the day” or because “this is the real cool Beach Boys”. These sets absolutely should be focused on preservation, not monetization. No one, absolutely no one, is buying these new releases because they truly believe the work being done in these mixes is surpassing the work done by the group originally.
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Post by tomtomplayboy on Jun 12, 2022 11:42:41 GMT -5
I think it needs to be stressed that while the majority of fans may strongly disagree with Howie's opinions, the issue of music taste is completely different from the issue of poor mixing. The key problem is digital EQ and compression. Everything else is A-OK. Put the tambourines in the center if you want. Just stop setting the plug-in values to 9999. These comps should be treated like preservation projects from a distinguished library, not like a commercial product aimed at some imaginary 23-year-old. And on top of that point, the majority of 20 something year olds are not going to buy a new Beach Boys box set because they “finally got the new sound they deserved back in the day” or because “this is the real cool Beach Boys”. These sets absolutely should be focused on preservation, not monetization. No one, absolutely no one, is buying these new releases because they truly believe the work being done in these mixes is surpassing the work done by the group originally. There is truly nothing more tragic and misguided than an old person trying and failing to be down with the kids. These new remixes are the audio equivalent of dad dancing.
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Post by Rick Bartlett on Jun 12, 2022 11:51:12 GMT -5
What also puzzles me right... It's fine for Linett to make 'these' mixes, but then Howie says, 'No, make it more'..... So that's two sets of ears that should know better. Then! Alan Boyd also has to approve of what is done, and obviously he approves!
WTF? 3 Sets of ears can't hear how shit these mixes/masters are? A lot of clowns going round, but nobody's laughing in this circus.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Jun 12, 2022 11:53:55 GMT -5
I think comparing Howie to Murry is wildly bizarre and odd. Howie’s just a journalist dude trying to get the Beach boys to be cool. Well guess what? Being nerdy *is* todays cool. The Beach Boys *are* nerdy, and awkward, and are not The Beatles. And that’s perfectly ok. Nerdy shit sells. Comic books, weird Al, all the stuff that used to be “nerdy” decades ago is today’s pop culture. The Beach Boys making their little nerdy songs about vegetables and sleeping and goddamn magical transistor radios doesn’t have to be thrown away just so that some Beatles/Who music snob Will be impressed by it. It’s just the modern example of The people in charge of the Beach boys trying to turn them into something they’re not. The Beach Boys were a collective of weird, weird little men, who rarely could keep up with their contemporaries, but were still able to create some of the best, goofiest, most beautiful music of all time. Trying to force them into a box is just stupid. But even still, that has very little to do with the problem here, which as pointed out several times is simply THE GODDAMN TREBLE AND COMPRESSION!!! To me, it doesn’t sound like they’re trying to make The Beach Boys sound like the Beatles, it sounds like they’re trying to make The Beach Boys sound like Californication, the first example everyone goes to when talking about hot-bad modern mastering. During the guitar solo on the new Marcella mix, you can literally hear digital pops, cracks and distortion where they just have everything going too loud and bright all at the same time. No one likes unintentional distortion. In 2016, when they were working on the SACDs for the catalog, Linett had this to say: “In reply to an earlier question, I supervised the mastering of all the new reissues. I recall that Sunflower required a couple of tries to get it to sound like the original vinyl LP which was what I compared the tests of the new version to before it was approved.” Those SACDs, and the analog production pressings from the same time, all pretty much got universal acclaim for their sound quality. That Version of sunflower is basically my go to, it sounds wonderful. Why are things so much different a short half decade or so later?
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Post by Mikie on Jun 12, 2022 11:55:58 GMT -5
Had a quick word with Someone Who Knows About These Things (these things being the individual streaming platforms) and they told me that once you deliver the files, the site's own algorithms kick in, which would certainly explain why "Marcella" sounds unlistenable on Vimeo - still, just checked - and acceptable on Spotify. So, hopefully the expanded comp and Sail On, Sailor will sound better than what we've heard thus far. I’m holding out hope that the CD mastering will knock all these streaming/download renditions into a cocked hat. Me too, John. I'm holding my breath that these tracks will sound vastly superior on the SOS CD's (and Mp3/Flac) released next week.
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Post by Rick Bartlett on Jun 12, 2022 11:59:20 GMT -5
I’m holding out hope that the CD mastering will knock all these streaming/download renditions into a cocked hat. ........I'm holding my breath that these tracks will sound vastly superior on the SOS CD's (and Mp3/Flac) released next week. I had that hope with the 'Feel Flows' set too. The Mp3/download samples were pretty accurate to the CD's unfortunately.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Jun 12, 2022 12:20:34 GMT -5
I’ve got a copy of the 24/88.2 lossless download of Marcella 2021 from deezer. Still sounds about the same. I have no idea how the 16/44.1 CD can just magically sound better, unless they’re just using completely different files for the CDs which is… Very unlikely. Also little fun fact, the full comp download is actually *more* expensive than the three CD, even lossy. $39.99 for an iTunes AAC purchase, $37.99 for Amazon MP3… and $29.98 for The full priced CD set. What a time to be alive
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Post by EST583JRX on Jun 12, 2022 12:21:17 GMT -5
I think comparing Howie to Murry is wildly bizarre and odd. Howie’s just a journalist dude trying to get the Beach boys to be cool. They're both controversial figures. They are/were both deeply involved at the production stage. That is where the similarities end. Well guess what? Being nerdy *is* todays cool. The Beach Boys *are* nerdy, and awkward, and are not The Beatles. And that’s perfectly ok. Nerdy shit sells. Comic books, weird Al, all the stuff that used to be “nerdy” decades ago is today’s pop culture. Yep! Wonder how Howie feels about one of the nerdiest and most influential pop/rock bands ever, Sparks, who just produced a feature-length documentary that made $1 million. During the guitar solo on the new Marcella mix, you can literally hear digital pops, cracks and distortion where they just have everything going too loud and bright all at the same time. Pops, cracks, and distortion usually happen when there are issues with the "hardware" (i.e. the tapes), not the software. I would consider those issues separate from the bad compression and EQ. Inevitably, when you make a mix louder and "clearer," especially for 40-year-old tapes like these, it will reveal some technical flaws that were previously inaudible.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Jun 12, 2022 12:24:16 GMT -5
I think comparing Howie to Murry is wildly bizarre and odd. Howie’s just a journalist dude trying to get the Beach boys to be cool. They're both controversial figures. They are/were both deeply involved at the production stage. That is where the similarities end. Well guess what? Being nerdy *is* todays cool. The Beach Boys *are* nerdy, and awkward, and are not The Beatles. And that’s perfectly ok. Nerdy shit sells. Comic books, weird Al, all the stuff that used to be “nerdy” decades ago is today’s pop culture. Yep! Wonder how Howie feels about one of the nerdiest and most influential pop/rock bands ever, Sparks, who just produced a feature-length documentary that made $1 million. During the guitar solo on the new Marcella mix, you can literally hear digital pops, cracks and distortion where they just have everything going too loud and bright all at the same time. Pops, cracks, and distortion usually happen when there are issues with the "hardware" (i.e. the tapes), not the software. I would consider those issues separate from the bad compression and EQ. I would consider it to be a problem with the tapes, except we got an a cappella mix last year of the track that contained a guitar solo and guess what? No distortion whatsoever.
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Post by EST583JRX on Jun 12, 2022 12:26:32 GMT -5
I stand corrected then. If only there was someone at BRI who could explain these technical discrepancies to the fans.
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Post by Mikie on Jun 12, 2022 12:35:22 GMT -5
Yes, Murry was there for many; maybe most of the early recording sessions. He was intimately involved with the recording process. Chuck Britz even wired up a special control board for Murry to use at Western.
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Post by filledeplage on Jun 12, 2022 13:05:58 GMT -5
I think it needs to be stressed that while the majority of fans may strongly disagree with Howie's opinions, the issue of music taste is completely different from the issue of poor mixing. The key problem is digital EQ and compression. Everything else is A-OK. Put the tambourines in the center if you want. Just stop setting the plug-in values to 9999. These comps should be treated like preservation projects from a distinguished library, not like a commercial product aimed at some imaginary 23-year-old. Preservation project is the exact term. You don’t want the sound judgment (pun intended) of a sound expert substituted by another non-sound or non-archival expert. Or, directing the sound archivists. I don’t want to pile on Howie and compare him to Murry. That’s just wrong. But people do have concerns that they have articulated. Over the course of their career, various people have done exactly this, with their own vision, rather than the best interest of the band’s music. We don’t need to name names, but starting with those who wanted Brian apart from the band who had their own visions and concepts that are a digression. Preservation and sound presentation for the truest (not newest) and artfully managed for a effect, consistent to showcase this enormous musical gift and not reinventing the wheel. Constructive, preventative feedback is better than the kind of blowback that happened with the C50 CD. It is the only release that I won’t play but do play C50 YouTube’s every day which sound magnificent and a better representation of those performances. The releases should showcase the absolute best representation of their work, not the “vision” of another. A lot of posters seem to want to see the work packaged in its very truest form, uncompromisingly faithful to the original tracks, and seem to feel, that at this juncture, that is not what is going on.
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Post by sirfrankiecrisp on Jun 12, 2022 13:32:14 GMT -5
Man. Such vitriol. That's what what my interview talking about The Beach Boys inspired? THAT'S the take-away from, what, 40 minutes talking about The Beach Boys? All this anger. All this pain. Jesus. Going out to play with my kids then dinner with my wife. You guys should do the same. Life's short. Stop buggin' about records. Howie, don't give me that. I work my butt off Monday to Friday to feed my family. The last thing I need is to be greeted by this. On my weekends, perusing Beach Boy message boards is something of a recreational activity for me - a form of leisure, even - I'm sure most would agree. Is there something wrong with engaging in online discussion about one's favorite band? I'd like to think not, otherwise I wouldn't find you here. Rather than acknowledging any of the legitimate criticisms others have put forward, you have instead chosen to ignore it, disregard it, and equate it to "vitriol." Downright embarrassing. Sure, go out and play... keep running from your problems like you always have. Also - kindly refrain from using the Lord's name in vain. It's very unprofessional.
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