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Post by filledeplage on Apr 28, 2023 12:20:21 GMT -5
Is anyone happy with the price for any of the Sail On Sailor sets? Asking in the interests of balance. Of course not. I got the download and am not happy the liner notes were not available as a PDF. Yes, I am. But, i just noticed on ebay that the large set is about $150 and sometimes if you see "best offer" they will take that offer just to get rid of the stock. In other places, I just checked a local place that has comics and music for an open box set (I am frugal)and they didn't have SOS but had the Christmas LP (the original) for $38. They must be kidding. But some fool kid will buy it for a parent or grandparent just out of love. We all overpay for someone special, over and over. ❤️🎶
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Post by Mark on Apr 28, 2023 12:49:22 GMT -5
And just speaking about Zappa specifically, UMG own and release all his music now also. You are entirely right that the people designing the product are the ones responsible and that can be done with a sense and understanding of the market / what fans want within a huge organisation like UMG. Also profits are greater for all involved when costs of a set are lower and sales higher. That's true, but UMG only bought the Zappa rights (rather than licensing them from the Zappa Family Trust) last summer. Up to that point they were licensing partners and Gail (and later Diva and Ahmet) was in charge. Now they have done an Iconic-style deal which means that they own even Zappa's moustache, and it'll be interesting to see how that changes. That’s right and since then some of the releases have been more sensibly packaged and priced. The recent Waka/Wazoo being a good example.
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Post by John Manning on Apr 28, 2023 14:12:58 GMT -5
To illustrate how shitty I think SOS truly is… I bought a relatively cheap surroundsound bar that came with rear speakers, just to test out how surround music sounds outside of the headphone environment. So I started with the new revolver Dolby Atmos mix. It sounded absolutely beautiful, lead vocals right up in front, backing vocals and extra instrumentation in the back, main instrumental somewhere in the middle. Even though I have a pretty bad set up, it still sounded great. It still sounded like there was work put into it. So I popped on the Dolby Atmos streaming versions of Carl and the passions and Holland that came with sail on sailor… And, of course, they’re fake. They’re not even real surround mixes, they’re just the stereo mixes stretched out and put through some sort of Atmos filter. How can I tell this? Well, number one just by looking at each individual channel, but also… The lead vocals were coming out of the rear speakers! Literally, only two tracks out of the entire two albums were true dedicated Atmos mixes, “make it good” and “cuddle up”. Then Mark has the nerve to get on some podcast and talk about how when he mixed Kokomo in Atmos he just… Extracted the lead vocal. Instead of, you know… going back to the original multi. And you can tell, it sounds horrendous. Obviously, something like this isn’t going to have a big effect on sales, but it truly shows how much they care. They wanted to release a surround mix… But were too lazy, or too cheep, or too careless to actually create one. What is happening over there? And if you just want to say “well, of course, they’re not gonna care about surround mixes, not many people listen to them”. OK, I can get behind that… But if that’s the case, Then why the hell did “at my piano” and the 64 Christmas album get true Atmos mixes. Are you telling me the Christmas album just translates better to surround? You know, the album recorded on three tracks versus the one recorded on 16 or Kokomo which was at least recorded on 24? That on top of the already terrible sound quality, on top of the already terrible liner notes, on top of the already terrible pricing. It’s like they were just trying to figure out how bad of a product they could get away with, and messed around and found out the hard way that no one wants to buy bad overpriced product. And there’s me worrying that I might be seen as moaning.
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Post by John Manning on Apr 28, 2023 14:13:57 GMT -5
For clarity, my only beef is with the price.
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Post by AGD on Apr 28, 2023 14:27:25 GMT -5
Literally, only two tracks out of the entire two albums were true dedicated Atmos mixes, “make it good” and “cuddle up”. I'm astonished you don't understand why this is so.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Apr 28, 2023 14:28:16 GMT -5
And there’s me worrying that I might be seen as moaning. it’s more amusement at this point. This band just can’t ever get it together, even when they get a multi hundred million dollar deal shot through the arm they still can’t get it together. The promo sucks, but the sound quality is fantastic. But wait, now the sound quality sucks but the promo is fantastic. But wait, now there’s no good sound quality, no promo and the price has been jacked up to insane levels… and you’re telling me it didn’t sell well? What ever might they try next.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Apr 28, 2023 14:29:40 GMT -5
Literally, only two tracks out of the entire two albums were true dedicated Atmos mixes, “make it good” and “cuddle up”. I'm astonished you don't understand why this is so. laziness? Incompetence? Lack of care? Take your pick.
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Post by AGD on Apr 28, 2023 14:31:18 GMT -5
Not what I meant at all. Your lack of comprehension is most amusing.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Apr 28, 2023 14:37:19 GMT -5
Not what I meant at all. Your lack of comprehension is most amusing. I literally don’t understand what you’re trying to say at all, because Dennis wrote them? Dennis also wrote steamboat and only with you, they don’t get special actual mixes. Because they have an orchestra on them? Again, only with you does as well, and… Because they got an alternate mix elsewhere on the box? Again, so did he come down, and only with you, and… literally any other track that got a backing vocals or a cappella mix. The Alternate mixes, and the Atmos mixes aren’t even the same, totally different. Is it because the vocals are strangely panned in the original? Well, that’s all over Holland as well, so that doesn’t make sense either. Is it because Daryl Dragon helped write and arrange them? Well, none of the other tracks he helped write and arrange had this…
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Post by AGD on Apr 28, 2023 14:41:19 GMT -5
Oh, I'm lovin' this. No, none of those. You're coming at this from pretty much every angle bar the right one.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Apr 28, 2023 14:48:06 GMT -5
Oh, I'm lovin' this. i’m sure you have an explanation filled with facts and logic that’s just gonna blow me away with all of its truthfulness and stone cold facts so… Let’s hear it, why is it only “Make It Good” and “Cuddle Up” that deserve to get proper surround mixes that isn’t true about the rest of that album, the rest of the album after or the two previous, or any of the other Dennis Wilson/Daryl Dragon collaborations?
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Post by AGD on Apr 28, 2023 14:50:08 GMT -5
Try working it out for yourself from basic principles/history. It's a tad harder than reading about everything somewhere else and then rehashing it.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Apr 28, 2023 15:05:05 GMT -5
Try working it out for yourself from basic principles/history. It's a tad harder than reading about everything somewhere else and then rehashing it. so you know just as much as I do, understood. Shame, i Was really getting excited for those facts and logic, but I got the same response a Facebook conspiracy theorist would give. “just do the research bro, do the actual research and learn the real facts like me. I can’t tell you about the facts but they’re the facts bro, wake up to the truth.”
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Post by Sam_BFC on Apr 28, 2023 15:09:23 GMT -5
Is it a technical reason or a political reason?
I'd have thought the multis are available therefore there is no technical reason why. Though not on Sail On Sailor, why couldn't Kokomo have a dedicated atmos mix?
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Post by AGD on Apr 28, 2023 15:18:44 GMT -5
Try working it out for yourself from basic principles/history. It's a tad harder than reading about everything somewhere else and then rehashing it. so you know just as much as I do, understood. Shame, i Was really getting excited for those facts and logic, but I got the same response a Facebook conspiracy theorist would give. “just do the research bro, do the actual research and learn the real facts like me. I can’t tell you about the facts but they’re the facts bro, wake up to the truth.” Pretty sure I've just been insulted: sonny, most people on this board know more than you do. Iffn you knew the history of the CATP album, you wouldn't keep digging that hole deeper. Try seeing instead of merely looking. I'm not going to spoon-feed you.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Apr 28, 2023 15:19:38 GMT -5
Is it a technical reason or a political reason? I'd have thought the multis are available therefore there is no technical reason why. Though not on Sail On Sailor, why couldn't Kokomo have a dedicated atmos mix? I wondered if it was a technical reason, but mess Of help, Marcella, Here She Comes and he come down were all remixed in the past two years. Also, Sail On Sailor (the title track) already has a true surround mix from the 90s. As for Kokomo, we know for a fact they have the original multi because… They’ve remixed it before. In 2018. For the orchestral album. That’s a totally new mix, running at a totally different speed, with totally different vocal filters being used.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Apr 28, 2023 15:42:27 GMT -5
Iffn you knew the history of the CATP album, you wouldn't keep digging that hole deeper. Try seeing instead of merely looking. I'm not going to spoon-feed you. why would the history of CATP mean that Holland couldn’t be remixed… Also, they already did a stereo remix of over half the album, so it’s literally irrelevant. The history of the album hasnt stopped them from making stereo remixes, it wouldn’t have stopped them from doing true Atmos mixes. And if there’s some political reason they couldn’t do it… That falls under “incompetence”, The Beach Boys bread and butter.
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Post by AGD on Apr 28, 2023 15:57:19 GMT -5
Iffn you knew the history of the CATP album, you wouldn't keep digging that hole deeper. Try seeing instead of merely looking. I'm not going to spoon-feed you. why would the history of CATP mean that Holland couldn’t be remixed…Also, they already did a stereo remix of over half the album, so it’s literally irrelevant. The history of the album hasnt stopped them from making stereo remixes, it wouldn’t have stopped them from doing true Atmos mixes. And if there’s some political reason they couldn’t do it… That falls under “incompetence”, The Beach Boys bread and butter. ... is a question that could only be asked by someone who doesn't know that history. And yes, it's got nothing to do with Holland - or anything - being remixed. Your consistency in getting hold of the wrong end of the stick is truly laudable. Like I said, do some thinking for yourself as opposed to parrotting the views of others. Start with how CATP came together.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Apr 28, 2023 16:19:20 GMT -5
why would the history of CATP mean that Holland couldn’t be remixed…Also, they already did a stereo remix of over half the album, so it’s literally irrelevant. The history of the album hasnt stopped them from making stereo remixes, it wouldn’t have stopped them from doing true Atmos mixes. And if there’s some political reason they couldn’t do it… That falls under “incompetence”, The Beach Boys bread and butter. ... is a question that could only be asked by someone who doesn't know that history. And yes, it's got nothing to do with Holland - or anything - being remixed. Your consistency in getting hold of the wrong end of the stick is truly laudable. Like I said, do some thinking for yourself as opposed to parrotting the views of others. Start with how CATP came together. why on earth would I care how it came together, it’s errelevant. I do not care, no matter the actual reason it falls under “incompetence” because it sounds terrible. At the end of the day, they did a bad job on the Atmos mix of both albums, no matter how you look at it. Also, exactly whose views am I parroting?
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Post by AGD on Apr 28, 2023 16:29:42 GMT -5
... is a question that could only be asked by someone who doesn't know that history. And yes, it's got nothing to do with Holland - or anything - being remixed. Your consistency in getting hold of the wrong end of the stick is truly laudable. Like I said, do some thinking for yourself as opposed to parrotting the views of others. Start with how CATP came together. why on earth would I care how it came together, it’s errelevant. I do not care, no matter the actual reason it falls under “incompetence” because it sounds terrible. At the end of the day, they did a bad job on the Atmos mix of both albums, no matter how you look at it. Also, exactly whose views am I parrotting? It's called "being a fan", which patently you are not. All you do here is bitch, moan and complain. That's my job. Whose views ? Why, everyone you've ever read.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Apr 28, 2023 16:44:36 GMT -5
why on earth would I care how it came together, it’s errelevant. I do not care, no matter the actual reason it falls under “incompetence” because it sounds terrible. At the end of the day, they did a bad job on the Atmos mix of both albums, no matter how you look at it. Also, exactly whose views am I parrotting? It's called "being a fan", which patently you are not. All you do here is bitch, moan and complain. That's my job. Whose views ? Why, everyone you've ever read. as far as I can tell, I’m like literally the only person here who gives the slightest rats ass about atmos mixes… Also, please don’t take this the wrong way, but the more in more you speak the more you sound like an unhinged Facebook conspiracy theorist. “Stop parroting bro, learn the facts and stop being a sheep.” But instead of “stop the steal” it’s “stop the Atmos mixes”. Also, you claim to be a historian… But Why does a historian have such a drastic interest in making sure nobody learns the history of the very subject he's an "expert" on? It’s baffling, if it’s part of the history, you’re the historian, you’re the one that supposed to inform us of stuff like this. So… What’s the history? And if it’s something secret that you can’t say… Why even bring it up in the first place? We could’ve avoided this entire conversation.
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Post by Sam_BFC on Apr 28, 2023 17:34:44 GMT -5
Although I've read a few books and have a reasonable idea about the genesis of CATP, I'm not sure what is being specifically referred to as the reason why only two CATP songs could be given a true atoms mix and would be curious about the actual answer to the question.
Andrew you appear more interested in provoking these responses from #Justice than directing the conversation in a more productive direction and getting in to the details of an interesting question.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on Apr 28, 2023 17:38:34 GMT -5
Although I've read a few books and have a reasonable idea about the genesis of CATP, I'm not sure what is being specifically referred to as the reason why only two CATP songs could be given a true atoms mix and would be curious about the actual answer to the question. Andrew you appear more interested in provoking these responses from #Justice than directing the conversation in a more productive direction and getting in to the details of an interesting question. because he doesn’t know, and if he did know he would’ve said already. And if it was something he couldn’t say, he never would’ve mentioned it. But nope, deflect deflect deflect. His map collecting story was fun though, very much enjoy little glimpses of the actual human behind the sharp tongued Twitter fingers…
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Post by Mikie on Apr 28, 2023 17:46:25 GMT -5
Let's be sure to keep it civil, guys. No more personal attacks or I'll have to put a lock on the thread and throw away the key. Thanks. Sam, it's "true atmos mix", not "true atoms mix". Atmos, as in Atmosphere.
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Post by filledeplage on Apr 28, 2023 17:49:58 GMT -5
It's called "being a fan", which patently you are not. All you do here is bitch, moan and complain. That's my job. Whose views ? Why, everyone you've ever read. as far as I can tell, I’m like literally the only person here who gives the slightest rats ass about atmos mixes… Also, please don’t take this the wrong way, but the more in more you speak the more you sound like an unhinged Facebook conspiracy theorist. “Stop parroting bro, learn the facts and stop being a sheep.” But instead of “stop the steal” it’s “stop the Atmos mixes”. Also, you claim to be a historian… But Why does a historian have such a drastic interest in making sure nobody learns the history of the very subject he's an "expert" on? It’s baffling, if it’s part of the history, you’re the historian, you’re the one that supposed to inform us of stuff like this. So… What’s the history? And if it’s something secret that you can’t say… Why even bring it up in the first place? We could’ve avoided this entire conversation. You might find out the history of the term "conspiracy theorist" to learn why it is so offensive to those BB contemporaries, who watched their president, JFK being assassinated. It is a pejorative term coined by the CIA as against those who did not believe the "magic bullet" theory that there was a lone gunman because even RFK Jr. - now a presidential candidate has declared that it was an inside job. So those who found the narrative insulting to the collective intelligence were smeared by the term "conspiracy theorist" - there is no good reason to say that an historian of this music is "unhinged." Knowing the context, I would never use that term. We went ten rounds over Atmos not that long ago, because it has more than one meaning and primarily for the theater industry. Then there are headsets or high end apple pro pods that sort of replicate surround sound. It is exclusionary for those fans who don't own that technology. Maybe at some point, there will be a full Atmos release. Atmos is a branding for surround sound, as best I can figure. I'm not nuts about the download not coming with a download of liner notes, etc. But it is not battle-worthy, more than venturing one's opinion. It is what it is. As a consumer we can always just not buy it and boycott. And if I can score a low bid on a box set, on ebay, I may go for it.
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