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Post by mattbbtalk on Jun 15, 2021 21:54:53 GMT -5
Tonight during the Many Moods of Matt I posited that the Beach Boys best era was 1963-1966 because Brian Wilson was the main songwriter, arranger, and producer at this time. Though he did participate a lot on the three "Lo Fi" albums, he is not producing and me there is a stark difference. I even notice personally that on the albums post friends, especially 20/20 through Holland, my favorite tunes are all the Brian Wilson songs. I could be biased, but there is something about his productions and song writing ability that just move me.
My question for conversation is do you agree with my assertion? And furthermore, do you think the Beach Boys would have had success in the 63-66 era if the started with the album 20/20 instead of Surfer Girl? Meaning, would the Beach Boys have had success if Brian Wilson was always just a contributor instead of head writer and producer?
I know that 50 years in history is written, but it is interesting to ponder. I myself find a noticeable drop off in the music when Brian took a step back. Just my thoughts!
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imij84
Grommet
Posts: 1
Likes: 2
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Post by imij84 on Jun 15, 2021 22:17:05 GMT -5
I think there was enough Brian “residual” to make their stuff after 1966 great. I think because they were brothers there was a little bit of Brian in Carl and Dennis. Also, apart from the “influence” of Brian on the songwriting skills of the other group members I think that he helped out on alot of songs that he didn’t take any songwriting credit on.
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Post by mattbbtalk on Jun 15, 2021 22:30:18 GMT -5
I think there was enough Brian “residual” to make their stuff after 1966 great. I think because they were brothers there was a little bit of Brian in Carl and Dennis. Also, apart from the “influence” of Brian on the songwriting skills of the other group members I think that he helped out on alot of songs that he didn’t take any songwriting credit on. I am sure that is true. I think their stuff after 66 is great, but different, and not as great as their stuff pre-66. And I tend to think it is because Brian assumed a diminished role in the songwriting and producing. But there is no doubt that they put out many great albums after 66. But personally I do not think they are better than anything from Surfer Girl to SMiLE.
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Post by Emdeeh on Jun 15, 2021 22:32:19 GMT -5
I agree with David Beard on this one, 1963-73 (Holland and the In Concert albums).
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Post by mattbbtalk on Jun 15, 2021 22:33:52 GMT -5
I agree with David Beard on this one, 1963-73 ( Holland and the In Concert albums). Fair enough!
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Post by jk on Jun 16, 2021 9:23:58 GMT -5
I agree with your assertion, Matt. After what are arguably the greatest pop album and single of all time, the only way is down. (Although that "down" has amazing peaks of its own.) But yes, 1963-66 sounds about right to me. I'll leave aside your question about 20/20 and Surfer Girl -- I'm not a "what if" person.
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Post by northcoast on Jun 16, 2021 13:12:58 GMT -5
Tonight during the Many Moods of Matt I posited that the Beach Boys best era was 1963-1966 because Brian Wilson was the main songwriter, arranger, and producer at this time. Though he did participate a lot on the three "Lo Fi" albums, he is not producing and me there is a stark difference. I even notice personally that on the albums post friends, especially 20/20 through Holland, my favorite tunes are all the Brian Wilson songs. I could be biased, but there is something about his productions and song writing ability that just move me. My question for conversation is do you agree with my assertion? And furthermore, do you think the Beach Boys would have had success in the 63-66 era if the started with the album 20/20 instead of Surfer Girl? Meaning, would the Beach Boys have had success if Brian Wilson was always just a contributor instead of head writer and producer? I know that 50 years in history is written, but it is interesting to ponder. I myself find a noticeable drop off in the music when Brian took a step back. Just my thoughts! From Surfin Safari to Good Vibrations, you had a man with the wind at his back and a marketplace responding in kind. When that man pulled back it took his bandmates a couple years to get their feet under them for a run that produced some of the group's more eclectic music out of step with the marketplace. So yeah, I would agree that 62 (or 3) through 66 was the diamond bright era for The Beach Boys. One achievement after another
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Post by Mark on Jun 16, 2021 16:21:26 GMT -5
I'm also a '63 to '73 being one run guy but agree with jk in that having one of the best albums and singles of all time in '66 and obviously Brian's reduced leadership afterwards definitely marks an end of an era. '67 - '73 a Silver Age perhaps then. It's hard to go against the phenomenal progress of Safari through Pet Sounds/GV but I really love the band members coming to the fore on the albums after.
I think if I had to grab albums in a 'house on fire' situation (!) I'd be looking to secure the '65 - '73 ones first!
'67 - '73 definitely my 'favourite' period of the band regardless of what should rank as 'best'.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Jun 16, 2021 16:50:47 GMT -5
To we fans, the Golden Era was 1963 to 1973, pure and simple. To the general public in the U.S., it definitely is 63-66, or possibly 63-68. Then, after Do It Again, their timeline skips directly to Kokomo. This is why the Boys sold and partnered with Iconic.
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Post by WillJC on Jun 16, 2021 17:20:41 GMT -5
Though he did participate a lot on the three "Lo Fi" albums, he is not producing and me there is a stark difference. "Not producing"? Brian is the producer of Smiley Smile and Friends. He produced 90% of Wild Honey. The notion that he didn't was disproved widely and loudly years ago.
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Post by Rick Bartlett on Jun 17, 2021 0:09:44 GMT -5
The Golden Era to me will always be 62-73, and I mean that to no disrespect to Matt. I kind of see where he is coming from, because most 'casual' listeners would say that, and that it is where
the hits were, and the Beach Boys image is formed. I'm not saying Matt you are a casual listener lol.
Also, the classic image of the group too.... I know Matt likes the latter stuff as well, so I'm in no way 'bullying' his opinion...... But he is right in what he says....
Most all of the 'Best Of's ' or 'Greatest Hits' catalogue's are based on this period, albeit one or two songs.... Cheers, Rick
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Post by jasonaustin on Jun 17, 2021 3:25:31 GMT -5
Tonight during the Many Moods of Matt I posited that the Beach Boys best era was 1963-1966 because Brian Wilson was the main songwriter, arranger, and producer at this time. Though he did participate a lot on the three "Lo Fi" albums, he is not producing and me there is a stark difference. I even notice personally that on the albums post friends, especially 20/20 through Holland, my favorite tunes are all the Brian Wilson songs. I could be biased, but there is something about his productions and song writing ability that just move me. My question for conversation is do you agree with my assertion? And furthermore, do you think the Beach Boys would have had success in the 63-66 era if the started with the album 20/20 instead of Surfer Girl? Meaning, would the Beach Boys have had success if Brian Wilson was always just a contributor instead of head writer and producer? I know that 50 years in history is written, but it is interesting to ponder. I myself find a noticeable drop off in the music when Brian took a step back. Just my thoughts! I'm actually kind of on board with your first point that '63-'66 was the best Beach Boys era, even though I love so much of what follows. I think prior to the development of internet message boards, the general consensus amongst most of the public was that anything the group put out after Pet Sounds was of marginal quality at best. You never saw releases like Sunflower, Surf's Up or Wild Honey popping up in any best albums lists until the late 90s really. But internet fandom really did go a long way towards changing the perception regarding the '67-'73 albums (and Love You and POB), along with the adoration from the then-current indie scene bands like the Elephant 6 acts, High Llamas and others. Suddenly it became hip to say your band was influenced by Wild Honey, and indie media started picking up on that, and once the Smile Shop was up and running it really was full speed ahead to 2004 and BWPS. I'm sure many long-time fans back then must have been amazed when albums they used to have to listen to in secret or get made fun of by their hipster friends suddenly became everybody's cherished classics. I saw the same thing happen with Ram and both of the McCartney self-titled solo albums around that time too. I just found it weird because I had always enjoyed these records and really didn't care what anybody else had to say about it. However, I do believe that there's almost been a sort of autocorrection-- maybe necessary at the time-- that as a sophisticated Beach Boys fan, you're not supposed to enjoy anything prior to Today! or Pet Sounds. Not that I see that attitude here on this site, but moreso with musician friends of mine who claim they dig the Beach Boys but who haven't listened to any of the early stuff apart from the hits. It's almost as though these folks would prefer to write the formative years out of the group's history and just have them be another underground band from the late 60s/early 70s so they can feel good about liking them; but I'm sorry, that is not who the Beach Boys were! They craved success and commercial acceptance. You can read interviews with any of the guys from around 1968 and they were all devastated that their records weren't selling anymore. I've said it before, but I really believe 1963 was the greatest year the Beach Boys ever had. They were the #1 band in the country-- nobody else even came close. And then of course the production race with the Beatles up through Smile had to be such an exciting period for both groups. The Beach Boys were clearly on a meteoric rise during that '63-'66 period, peaking at "Good Vibrations" and then suddenly, tragically hurtling downward, even though their albums did remain quite strong for a while. They'd of course reach new heights of popularity as a live band in the late 70s, but in terms of new releases they never came close to recapturing commercially what they had during that four year span at the beginning. There's a good reason they were so popular in the early days, and that's because their vocals and Brian's songwriting, arrangements and productions were all amazing! The music was so different and fresh compared to everything else that was around at the time that it would have been futile to deny it. They took over America and then Europe, eventually becoming the most popular band in England. Bigger than the Beatles. Now sure, their early albums could be inconsistent (just like their later ones) but I could easily list off 30 songs from their formative days that rank amongst my very favorite material that they ever did. Just the other night my girlfriend and I were listening to a playlist of tracks off of All Summer Long, Today and Summer Days, and I told her that that might be my favorite era for the group. And you know what, she agreed! And so in turn I think we both agree with you, Matt. I'd never knock Smiley, Wild Honey or Friends-- I love those albums to death-- but '63-'66 was peak Beach Boys. Rant over and thanks for reading.
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Post by jk on Jun 17, 2021 3:44:49 GMT -5
I'm actually kind of on board with your first point that '63-'66 was the best Beach Boys era, even though I love so much of what follows. ... I'd never knock Smiley, Wild Honey or Friends-- I love those albums to death-- but '63-'66 was peak Beach Boys. Rant over and thanks for reading. Thanks for posting, J. A great read as always. Agreed on all counts.
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Post by mattbbtalk on Jun 17, 2021 19:14:03 GMT -5
Though he did participate a lot on the three "Lo Fi" albums, he is not producing and me there is a stark difference. "Not producing"? Brian is the producer of Smiley Smile and Friends. He produced 90% of Wild Honey. The notion that he didn't was disproved widely and loudly years ago. I am not saying he didn’t produce anything, but he was certainly not as involved as he was in the earlier days when they had great success.
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Post by mattbbtalk on Jun 17, 2021 19:15:20 GMT -5
The Golden Era to me will always be 62-73, and I mean that to no disrespect to Matt. I kind of see where he is coming from, because most 'casual' listeners would say that, and that it is where
the hits were, and the Beach Boys image is formed. I'm not saying Matt you are a casual listener lol.
Also, the classic image of the group too.... I know Matt likes the latter stuff as well, so I'm in no way 'bullying' his opinion...... But he is right in what he says....
Most all of the 'Best Of's ' or 'Greatest Hits' catalogue's are based on this period, albeit one or two songs.... Cheers, Rick
Thanks Rick! I love all of their music. The point I was trying to convey was that there seems to be a drop off from the early era once Brian stepped back a bit. The music could be just as good, but to me I always liked Brian’s songs the most so maybe that’s why it seems the way it does to me.
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Post by mattbbtalk on Jun 17, 2021 19:17:55 GMT -5
Tonight during the Many Moods of Matt I posited that the Beach Boys best era was 1963-1966 because Brian Wilson was the main songwriter, arranger, and producer at this time. Though he did participate a lot on the three "Lo Fi" albums, he is not producing and me there is a stark difference. I even notice personally that on the albums post friends, especially 20/20 through Holland, my favorite tunes are all the Brian Wilson songs. I could be biased, but there is something about his productions and song writing ability that just move me. My question for conversation is do you agree with my assertion? And furthermore, do you think the Beach Boys would have had success in the 63-66 era if the started with the album 20/20 instead of Surfer Girl? Meaning, would the Beach Boys have had success if Brian Wilson was always just a contributor instead of head writer and producer? I know that 50 years in history is written, but it is interesting to ponder. I myself find a noticeable drop off in the music when Brian took a step back. Just my thoughts! I'm actually kind of on board with your first point that '63-'66 was the best Beach Boys era, even though I love so much of what follows. I think prior to the development of internet message boards, the general consensus amongst most of the public was that anything the group put out after Pet Sounds was of marginal quality at best. You never saw releases like Sunflower, Surf's Up or Wild Honey popping up in any best albums lists until the late 90s really. But internet fandom really did go a long way towards changing the perception regarding the '67-'73 albums (and Love You and POB), along with the adoration from the then-current indie scene bands like the Elephant 6 acts, High Llamas and others. Suddenly it became hip to say your band was influenced by Wild Honey, and indie media started picking up on that, and once the Smile Shop was up and running it really was full speed ahead to 2004 and BWPS. I'm sure many long-time fans back then must have been amazed when albums they used to have to listen to in secret or get made fun of by their hipster friends suddenly became everybody's cherished classics. I saw the same thing happen with Ram and both of the McCartney self-titled solo albums around that time too. I just found it weird because I had always enjoyed these records and really didn't care what anybody else had to say about it. However, I do believe that there's almost been a sort of autocorrection-- maybe necessary at the time-- that as a sophisticated Beach Boys fan, you're not supposed to enjoy anything prior to Today! or Pet Sounds. Not that I see that attitude here on this site, but moreso with musician friends of mine who claim they dig the Beach Boys but who haven't listened to any of the early stuff apart from the hits. It's almost as though these folks would prefer to write the formative years out of the group's history and just have them be another underground band from the late 60s/early 70s so they can feel good about liking them; but I'm sorry, that is not who the Beach Boys were! They craved success and commercial acceptance. You can read interviews with any of the guys from around 1968 and they were all devastated that their records weren't selling anymore. I've said it before, but I really believe 1963 was the greatest year the Beach Boys ever had. They were the #1 band in the country-- nobody else even came close. And then of course the production race with the Beatles up through Smile had to be such an exciting period for both groups. The Beach Boys were clearly on a meteoric rise during that '63-'66 period, peaking at "Good Vibrations" and then suddenly, tragically hurtling downward, even though their albums did remain quite strong for a while. They'd of course reach new heights of popularity as a live band in the late 70s, but in terms of new releases they never came close to recapturing commercially what they had during that four year span at the beginning. There's a good reason they were so popular in the early days, and that's because their vocals and Brian's songwriting, arrangements and productions were all amazing! The music was so different and fresh compared to everything else that was around at the time that it would have been futile to deny it. They took over America and then Europe, eventually becoming the most popular band in England. Bigger than the Beatles. Now sure, their early albums could be inconsistent (just like their later ones) but I could easily list off 30 songs from their formative days that rank amongst my very favorite material that they ever did. Just the other night my girlfriend and I were listening to a playlist of tracks off of All Summer Long, Today and Summer Days, and I told her that that might be my favorite era for the group. And you know what, she agreed! And so in turn I think we both agree with you, Matt. I'd never knock Smiley, Wild Honey or Friends-- I love those albums to death-- but '63-'66 was peak Beach Boys. Rant over and thanks for reading. Very interesting! I think my point was in part of what you said. Early Beach Boys is almost unhip now, but to me it is their best music. And I think it is their best music because they had a healthy Brian as their musical leader. The later music is great as well, but it’s not Brian. I love all the BB, but his music moves me so deeply, ya know?
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Post by WillJC on Jun 17, 2021 19:46:08 GMT -5
"Not producing"? Brian is the producer of Smiley Smile and Friends. He produced 90% of Wild Honey. The notion that he didn't was disproved widely and loudly years ago. I am not saying he didn’t produce anything, but he was certainly not as involved as he was in the earlier days when they had great success. Yes, he was. What you're saying is demonstrably untrue.
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Post by mattbbtalk on Jun 17, 2021 21:18:22 GMT -5
I am not saying he didn’t produce anything, but he was certainly not as involved as he was in the earlier days when they had great success. Yes, he was. What you're saying is demonstrably untrue. I will defer to you! And I’ll read up more on that era. I knew his lack of involvement was overstated for sure. Thanks!
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Post by monolithic on Jun 18, 2021 7:01:02 GMT -5
While Brian was still the leader during the lo-fi albums, his contribution and attitude was obviously very different.
Brian's productions between 1963 and 1966 show him putting everything he has into the recordings.
Brian's productions on the lo-fi albums show him putting roughly 50% of himself into the recordings imo. From a psychological standpoint that makes perfect sense in terms of the "don't try, can't fail" mindset.
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Post by mattbbtalk on Jun 18, 2021 8:34:58 GMT -5
While Brian was still the leader during the lo-fi albums, his contribution and attitude was obviously very different. Brian's productions between 1963 and 1966 show him putting everything he has into the recordings. Brian's productions on the lo-fi albums show him putting roughly 50% of himself into the recordings imo. From a psychological standpoint that makes perfect sense in terms of the "don't try, can't fail" mindset. What you stated is more the sentiment I failed to convey!
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Jun 18, 2021 8:51:50 GMT -5
Brian was still fully in charge and in control of the music being made. That he chose to do things differently is strictly on him and not others pulling him away and horning in on the production front. Whether mental illness played a hand that early seems more clear; it did, indeed. What I found most interesting too, is that even though he hadn’t been a touring member for over a year, he was even running the show at the those Hawaii concerts and flying to Michigan to rehearse the band for performing Good Vibrations. To my eye, Brian was in as much control as he was willing to take responsibility for and the band seems to have followed and welcomed that participation.
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Post by WillJC on Jun 18, 2021 8:59:44 GMT -5
I wouldn't agree with that 50% or "don't try, can't fail" assessment at all. Brian walked away from being competitive, and making self-consciously 'important' art; he didn't walk away from putting himself into his music, or making art that mattered to him.
That run of post-Smile albums are some of the most honest, vital, and real reflections of Brian's personality and creativity he's ever given us. Period. It shouldn't be possible to listen to Be Here in the Mornin', or Aren't You Glad, or Little Bird, and come away thinking that's a guy musically operating at anything less than 105%. If you do, I don't think you're getting Brian Wilson. Simple as that. Whether you like it or not is a different thing altogether.
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Post by mattbbtalk on Jun 18, 2021 9:36:16 GMT -5
Brian was still fully in charge and in control of the music being made. That he chose to do things differently is strictly on him and not others pulling him away and horning in on the production front. Whether mental illness played a hand that early seems more clear; it did, indeed. What I found most interesting too, is that even though he hadn’t been a touring member for over a year, he was even running the show at the those Hawaii concerts and flying to Michigan to rehearse the band for performing Good Vibrations. To my eye, Brian was in as much control as he was willing to take responsibility for and the band seems to have followed and welcomed that participation. Great points! This is why I love this board, i learn so much and my perspective is changing!
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Post by mattbbtalk on Jun 18, 2021 9:36:51 GMT -5
I wouldn't agree with that 50% or "don't try, can't fail" assessment at all. Brian walked away from being competitive, and making self-consciously 'important' art; he didn't walk away from putting himself into his music, or making art that mattered to him. That run of post-Smile albums are some of the most honest, vital, and real reflections of Brian's personality and creativity he's ever given us. Period. It shouldn't be possible to listen to Be Here in the Mornin', or Aren't You Glad, or Little Bird, and come away thinking that's a guy musically operating at anything less than 105%. If you do, I don't think you're getting Brian Wilson. Simple as that. Whether you like it or not is a different thing altogether. Thanks for all the comments! You have moved me to reconsider all of this and I appreciate it!
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Post by monolithic on Jun 18, 2021 14:03:09 GMT -5
I wouldn't agree with that 50% or "don't try, can't fail" assessment at all. Brian walked away from being competitive, and making self-consciously 'important' art; he didn't walk away from putting himself into his music, or making art that mattered to him. That run of post-Smile albums are some of the most honest, vital, and real reflections of Brian's personality and creativity he's ever given us. Period. It shouldn't be possible to listen to Be Here in the Mornin', or Aren't You Glad, or Little Bird, and come away thinking that's a guy musically operating at anything less than 105%. If you do, I don't think you're getting Brian Wilson. Simple as that. Whether you like it or not is a different thing altogether. Sorry, but I can't agree with the "I don't think you're getting Brian Wilson" idea. We can have different opinions without simply dismissing the other person as "not getting it". I do like those albums, for what it's worth. Brian certainly put plenty of his personality into his music at this time and I don't think anyone suggested otherwise. My comment was solely about the productions and my opinion is that Brian didn't put everything he had into the likes of Gettin' Hungry, Be Still and many other productions. Psychological it makes perfect sense and it's a long established concept. Brian was still putting some effort into his productions, of course, but it was very different to the effort he made when he was working at much greater intensity and with a greater number of musicians in the years earlier.
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