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Post by kds on Jan 4, 2019 8:50:15 GMT -5
I remember seeing Michael Jackson catch a game winning touchdown in overtime for the Baltimore Ravens in a win over the St. Louis Rams in 1996.
Oh wait, the other Michael Jackson??? The pop singer??
Oops. While his music isn't my cup of tea, in my older age, I can appreciate what Michael Jackson and other pop stars of the 1980s did. Back then, you actually needed to possess talent to be a pop star, and Michael Jackson had tons of it. Of course, "Thriller" is on my Halloween playlist.
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Post by Beach Boys Fan on Jan 4, 2019 19:45:09 GMT -5
Hello, big MJ fan here. Each album got gems. This is music I'd dub "cool". Not many can brag it. I mean, hilariously bad Madonna who can't even sing? Prince? Who else? I'm no 80s music fan, I didn't arrive yet to say I "grew up with the 80s music" either. Which means there isn't nostalgic attachment (frankly, I'm glad). But, it changed when I discovered MJ, he helped me to "get" the 80s, shall we say, with its weird flashy Day-glo-like features. Michael did equally good dance rock numbers AND ballads. Which, again, not many can brag, it's difficult. About favorite songs/ albums in my next reply. Stand by.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2019 10:21:47 GMT -5
I'll admit that I never really respected him in life. I grew up in the "haha, he's a pedophile!"/"haha, he has bad plastic surgery" era of his life. It wasn't until after he died when I saw the outpouring of grief, shock and everyone talking about how much he meant to them that I decided to finally give his music an honest listen. Once I did, I was ashamed of the way I'd written him off solely based on schoolyard gossip. I really loved his music, from the Jackson 5 to the present. I started with Thriller considering how famous it is, then moved on to Bad and Off the Wall. (I actually bought OTW myself that summer I ended up liking it so much.) I find it odd that Thriller gets all the attention when OTW and Bad are far better albums in my opinion. Some of his fans really annoy me though. In high school we had this really obnoxious kid who idolized MJ and would act like him sometimes. According to this kid, Thriller was the first music video ever made--and he would NOT be convinced otherwise. Nevermind that MJ made a music video to Don't Stop 'Till You Get Enough and probably others In college, a woman I knew dressed as MJ for Halloween. When I tried to talk to her about Bad/OTW she just stared at me blankly. Mention "Thriller" and then she's gushing about the stupid zombie music video My favorite MJ song besides Billie Jean is this one:
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Post by The Cap'n on Mar 8, 2019 8:25:01 GMT -5
I haven't yet watched the documentary Leaving Neverland yet, though I probably will this weekend. I'm curious whether it will affect how I view Jackson. I'm guessing not, because I've long assumed he was a pedophile despite his never being convicted. But hearing actual (alleged) victims' own stories can't help me feel good about the man.
However, it's not going to ruin that string from Off the Wall through Bad for me. Those were great albums. Many of the best rock musicians seem to have been assholes at best, and far, far worse at worst. Jackson unfortunately fits right in.
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Post by lizzielooziani on Mar 8, 2019 12:09:01 GMT -5
I have a very mixed opinion of Michael Jackson. His music up to a point was quite phenomenal. He was untouchable music wise in the late 70s and 80s. I eagerly bought his albums. But then that Black or White video came out. Like who knows how many around the world, I tuned in to the world premiere of it. I'm going on memory because I only saw it once, but it was an incredible all around experience , especially the then new special effects showing a man becoming a woman , all morphing into different races. A feel good video for sure. But then came the next part of the video - Jackson smashing things , then grabbing himself over and over... I thought "what the?" and turned it off. there was such an outcry from the ending part that it was deleted from subsequent viewing on MTV etc. I came to pity the guy, even after the allegations of impropriety. He obviously had a super messed up childhood and had trouble with relationships . But I still listen to his records. Besides the ones you all listed, some faves of mine are "Don t stop til you've had enough" and "Human Nature."
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Post by The Cap'n on Mar 8, 2019 12:18:36 GMT -5
I remember that video as well. It was gratuitous to be sure. Very odd choices...
"Human Nature," absolutely great song! Probably one of his most underrated.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 12:43:54 GMT -5
I was a big fan of Michael's work with The Jackson 5. We had several of the 45s, one great hit after another including "I Want You Back", "ABC", "The Love You Save", "I'll Be There", and two of my personal favorites, "Never Can Say Goodbye" and "Maybe Tomorrow". But as Michael branched off and his music changed, I started to lose interest. It just wasn't the kind of music that I could sit and enjoy like the earlier singles. I knew the albums and videos were huge, all of the clubs were playing his songs, and he was becoming a legend. But even though I could appreciate his talents as a singer, dancer, and writer - he was obviously very, very talented - again I just didn't LISTEN to his stuff, unless it was on somebody's radio or TV.
What really started to turn me off were the attention-seeking antics; it seemed like everything with Michael Jackson had to be over the top. Ambition and pushing the envelope is one thing, but it just appeared too narcissistic, too weird. I always believed that if you give an individual too much power, too much money, the ability to do ANYTHING they please, and nobody to say "no" to them, they will ultimately destroy themselves. And, sadly, that's what I believe ultimately happened to Michael Jackson.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 13:20:10 GMT -5
Has anyone seen the new HBO documentary series about the pedophilia accusations? It's called Leaving Neverland.
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Post by The Cap'n on Mar 8, 2019 13:26:15 GMT -5
I plan to watch before the end of the weekend.
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Post by Beach Boys Fan on Mar 8, 2019 13:55:23 GMT -5
I do not believe any accusations.
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Post by The Cap'n on Mar 8, 2019 14:06:51 GMT -5
What research did you do, what evidence did you weigh, to come to this conclusion?
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Post by lizzielooziani on Mar 8, 2019 22:07:34 GMT -5
Ugh, saw part 1 just now. Don t know that I want to see part 2. Not pleasant viewing. :-(
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Post by lizzielooziani on Mar 9, 2019 21:09:44 GMT -5
Yes, Off the Wall is a great album.
About the documentary , we will never know with 100 percent certainty that MJ did what he was accused of. However the two now grown men gave compelling evidence that something unseemly was happening. I couldn't understand why the mothers allowed their sons to sleep over and over with MJ. One of the guys admitted that he enjoyed the experience until he started being shown porno. They were warned not to tell anyone, that if it got out,they would both end up in jail.
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Post by Beach Boys Fan on Mar 10, 2019 2:47:25 GMT -5
Wrap that little discussion and back to music. Let's list Top-5 MJ songs. 1. ''Black Or White'' 2. ''They Don't Care About Us'' 3. ''Sunset Driver'' 4. ''Just Good Friends'' 5. ''Beat It''
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Post by Beach Boys Fan on Mar 10, 2019 5:59:35 GMT -5
@littlesurfer You already commented re: docu. You said your piece. & excuse me, I didn't know that preferring to discuss music is "responding like children". I politely asked people to change subject back to music. Let's not compare it to something you describe such as covering ears etc. There's nothing else to say about that other thing beyond one-dimensional "I feel sorry for boys" etc. It's not interesting. Much fruitful is discussing MJ-the recording artist.
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Post by Beach Boys Fan on Mar 10, 2019 6:38:13 GMT -5
Discuss away, BBF. I made several comments above on MJ as recording artist. As a fan you must presumably agree however that MJ is more than a recording artist but also a cultural phenomenon and an episode in the history of modern celebrity, among many other things. No one else has yet mentioned his enormous influence as a dancer, one topic raised implicitly in my previous post, so maybe you have thoughts on that you want to share. He is a subject of interest in many areas so there is certainly no need for a one dimensional discussion. Sure. What's to you the best dance move by Michael? Mine is banal - moonwalk. It's such difficult thing to do. I tried it many times but it didn't quite yet reach the perfection point, ha.
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Post by Beach Boys Fan on Mar 10, 2019 7:17:39 GMT -5
Hahaha. You're funny. What's wrong about ''Wrap that little discussion and back to music.''? It's, like I said, nice polite way to tell people to get back to discussing music.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 8:46:46 GMT -5
Hahaha. You're funny. What's wrong about ''Wrap that little discussion and back to music.''? It's, like I said, nice polite way to tell people to get back to discussing music. So, lizzielooziani , tell me your Top-5 MJ songs. At the risk of fueling the fire so to speak, "wrap that little discussion" feels very condescending to me, and I would have reacted probably the same exact way @littlesurfer did. It implies the conversation we were having, which I thought was very interesting personally, is "little," unimportant, not worthy of respect. The polite way to address would be just ask "can we get back to the music" or just talk about the music yourself and lead the charge. Just giving some friendly advice. Im not sure whether I believe the accusations or not as Ive seen compelling evidence both arguments. But it's absolutely part of the man's legacy and worthy of discussion here. The documentary just came out and has been making waves (the Simpsons pulled his cameo episode and I believe his own sister denounced him.) We can talk about it if we want to.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 9:05:21 GMT -5
@iluvleniloud - thanks for advice but as the author, I must reassure you it wasn't ''condescending''. I used ''little'' for no effect at all. So, let's just agree to disagree, alright? I'd like you, people, to make at least some effort to understand me. It many times looks like people support each other and I end up being 5th wheel. Which is sad, very. Im sure you didnt mean offense but you have to understand how it might come across to the other people interpret it. If three different people interpreted it that way, it's a good indication that you might want to think about how you phrase things like that going forward. We are trying to understand you and I think everyone here in this thread has been very nice about giving you the benefit of the doubt. However, it has to come both ways. A simple "Im sorry, I'll watch how I say things in the future" goes a long way in situations like this. Not trying to kick you when you're down, just trying to give you some perspective with how you come off sometimes.
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Post by kds on Mar 10, 2019 10:03:20 GMT -5
Hahaha. You're funny. What's wrong about ''Wrap that little discussion and back to music.''? It's, like I said, nice polite way to tell people to get back to discussing music. So, lizzielooziani , tell me your Top-5 MJ songs. At the risk of fueling the fire so to speak, "wrap that little discussion" feels very condescending to me, and I would have reacted probably the same exact way @littlesurfer did. It implies the conversation we were having, which I thought was very interesting personally, is "little," unimportant, not worthy of respect. The polite way to address would be just ask "can we get back to the music" or just talk about the music yourself and lead the charge. Just giving some friendly advice. Im not sure whether I believe the accusations or not as Ive seen compelling evidence both arguments. But it's absolutely part of the man's legacy and worthy of discussion here. The documentary just came out and has been making waves (the Simpsons pulled his cameo episode and I believe his own sister denounced him.) We can talk about it if we want to. In addition to the Simpsons rerun being taken out of circulation, some radio stations have stopped playing Jackson's music. I think this is an overreaction, especially since the accusations are nothing new. Unfortunately, artists do terrible things sometimes. I can't defend that, but I think the art deserves defending. I think if you ban Jackson's music and episodes of TV shows he's appeared in, you start down a slippery slope.
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Post by filledeplage on Mar 10, 2019 10:20:58 GMT -5
At the risk of fueling the fire so to speak, "wrap that little discussion" feels very condescending to me, and I would have reacted probably the same exact way @littlesurfer did. It implies the conversation we were having, which I thought was very interesting personally, is "little," unimportant, not worthy of respect. The polite way to address would be just ask "can we get back to the music" or just talk about the music yourself and lead the charge. Just giving some friendly advice. Im not sure whether I believe the accusations or not as Ive seen compelling evidence both arguments. But it's absolutely part of the man's legacy and worthy of discussion here. The documentary just came out and has been making waves (the Simpsons pulled his cameo episode and I believe his own sister denounced him.) We can talk about it if we want to. In addition to the Simpsons rerun being taken out of circulation, some radio stations have stopped playing Jackson's music. I think this is an overreaction, especially since the accusations are nothing new. Unfortunately, artists do terrible things sometimes. I can't defend that, but I think the art deserves defending. I think if you ban Jackson's music and episodes of TV shows he's appeared in, you start down a slippery slope. Interestingly enough - his music sales have increased. MJ was a criminal behind closed doors. When your sister is making allegations, they should be taken seriously. MJ is a whole industry. We are on a slippery slope not being able to separate a person's work from their crimes. Bill Cosby did great work in education with a Doctorate in Education. Behind closed doors Cosby was a criminal. One can always CHOOSE to not listen. Removing the work is removing the CHOICE. I don't need someone else CHOOSING for me. Three key words and why I put them in caps (not to be rude, but for emphasis.) Personal volition gets lost if a choice is removed. 1. choose 2. choice 3. choosing It is the beginning of the worst type of censorship possible. It has spilled over into every aspect of living. It includes the shadow banning, on twitter, when someone else substitutes their judgment for you, because you are not deemed smart enough to choose for yourself.
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Post by The Cap'n on Mar 10, 2019 10:40:13 GMT -5
In addition to the Simpsons rerun being taken out of circulation, some radio stations have stopped playing Jackson's music. I think this is an overreaction, especially since the accusations are nothing new. Unfortunately, artists do terrible things sometimes. I can't defend that, but I think the art deserves defending. I think if you ban Jackson's music and episodes of TV shows he's appeared in, you start down a slippery slope. Agree very much. I would quibble with the word "ban," on similar grounds to one we had years ago about "the war on Christmas" (i.e., that this isn't a ban but rather businesses deciding what is in their best interest, right or wrong), but that's not worth going into here: the eventual point remains the same. It isn't news that MJ was a pedophile. The music remains brilliant.
Everyone should have the freedom to balance his own feelings of disgust on one hand and appreciation on the other, and come out wherever he comes out. "Canceling" someone--a term I've only heard in recent months and despise entirely--isn't a solution. You should know and think about the ugly things in life, not whitewash and just pretend they didn't exist. That's Soviet-style. Bad things that way lie.
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Post by sneakypete77 on Mar 10, 2019 11:05:06 GMT -5
Wrong. That bit is polite thru and thru. But you may misconstrue it as you see fit. Hahah. Honorable mention to Top-5 - ''You Are Not Alone''. Anybody like it? MJ recorded some wonderful ballads. That man could do anything with his voice. This is my favourite MJ ballad. Don't overthink it, just enjoy it. A beautiful melody, and he really did have a way with words.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 11:05:42 GMT -5
In addition to the Simpsons rerun being taken out of circulation, some radio stations have stopped playing Jackson's music. I think this is an overreaction, especially since the accusations are nothing new. Unfortunately, artists do terrible things sometimes. I can't defend that, but I think the art deserves defending. I think if you ban Jackson's music and episodes of TV shows he's appeared in, you start down a slippery slope. Im not saying I agree with the actions necessarily, but my point is this is a big deal and warrants discussion on his thread. For whatever it makes me, I still like his music and will continue to do so. I separate the art from the artist, because if I didn't I wouldn't be allowed to enjoy anything. I like Woody Allen's Annie Hall, I like Roman Polanski's Chinatown, I like Kevin Spacey's movies, I like John Lennon's contributions to the Beatles. Just because they did shitty things, Im not gonna cut all these aesthetically pleasing works of art out of my life forever. And if that makes me a bad person, so be it.
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Post by lizzielooziani on Mar 10, 2019 14:59:23 GMT -5
My top five. The first is my favorite, the rest in whatever order
Human Nature Don't Stop Til You Get Enough Rock With You Wanna Be Startin Somethin Beat It
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