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Post by AGD on Mar 28, 2019 15:51:22 GMT -5
September 21st was a session for both "GV" vocals and the theremin. Source: Craig's sessionography in the Smile Sessions big box booklet.
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Post by AGD on Mar 28, 2019 16:16:05 GMT -5
Based on the sessionography that quotes correct. Brian recorded at least by the end of August only 5 songs: "Good Vibrations", "Heroes And Villains", "Wind Chimes", "I Ran", and "Wonderful". I omit "He Gives Speeches" because I believe that was merely a section for another song (most likely "I Ran" based on my findings). I can't find any evidence in the sessionography for "Child Is Father of the Man" being worked on any earlier than October. Sessions for "Child..."
1966
10/7 - first version 10/11 - second version (logged as "Cabin Essence") 10/12 - vocals 12/2 - vocals 12/6 - vocals
1967 4/10 - third version
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2019 17:09:07 GMT -5
September 21st was a session for both "GV" vocals and the theremin. Source: Craig's sessionography in the Smile Sessions big box booklet. Thanks so much for pointing that out for me! I completely missed that anecdote underneath the other session information on that page. I recently converted all the sessionography in the booklet to an interactive calendar on my Mac, and I've been referring to that. I just missed that one session, so thanks! Um...where exactly did this idea come from that Wind Chimes 'had' to be re-recorded with a marimba-based arrangement to match the instrumentation of Holidays, for some reason? Brian used a piano on more than one song too. And Holidays had evidently been dropped from the lineup shortly after the basic track was recorded given that it was never worked on again and not included in the December memo. It came from my head . It's more of a theory however. That first sentence your wrote is my interpretation on why the verse in "Wind Chimes" was re-recorded. It simply needed to sound similar to it's brother: Holidays. Not to sound subversive btw, but I don't believe "Holidays" was dropped just because it didn't show up again in Sessionography or the track listing. There is not concrete evidence that it was NEVER worked on again. A lack of evidence is not evidence. Plus when you combine "Holidays" and "Wind Chimes" together, they really become one track. But here's my take on things regarding "Holidays": I believe it was most likely edited together with "Wind Chimes", and that edit was moved onto another tape for vocal overdubs. There was a vocal session for "Wind Chimes" in October, but it was 5 hours long. I'd like to imagine, the boys used their time efficiently enough to record vocals for at least two songs in 5 hours by that point. That's my take. So maybe the reason why we never saw "Holidays" mentioned again is because it was assimilated under the "Wind Chimes" umbrella. On He Gives Speeches, can't speak for the dates, but an organ being there on early takes means nothing. A B3 would've been present at Western like always. Could've been used on either day if Brian felt like it. Last point, Brian mentioned Child is Father of the Man as a song he'd written in early August. Songs can be hanging around for a long time before they're recorded. We know the chronology of Brian and Van Dyke's first collaborations was Heroes and Villains, then Surf's Up, then Wonderful, or something along those lines. Thanks for that info. I certainly didn't know that an organ was also present in Western. Still doesn't explain the same engineer. Here's another question though: Why did Brian go back to the organ for "She's Going Bald"? Regarding the last part of your post, I think it really is incredible to think that the bulk of Smile was probably written during the July period. That is as Van put it, "an athletic situation". I can't find any evidence in the sessionography for "Child Is Father of the Man" being worked on any earlier than October. Sessions for "Child..." 1966
10/7 - first version 10/11 - second version (logged as "Cabin Essence") 10/12 - vocals 12/2 - vocals 12/6 - vocals 1967 4/10 - third version
Thanks for the backup. I used to be perplexed why the 2nd session was labeled as a "Cabin Essence" session until I realized that after taking an hour for Dinner, Brian and Carl were going to shoot downtown to Columbia to record vocals for "Cabin Essence". I don't think the tracks are connected in any way other than that. I don't believe that section from April to be intended for "Child Is Father of the Man", certainly not a 3rd version of the song. It was most likely the bridge for the 3rd Version of "Wonderful" at the time.
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Post by AGD on Mar 28, 2019 17:59:25 GMT -5
Thanks for the backup. I used to be perplexed why the 2nd session was labeled as a "Cabin Essence" session until I realized that after taking an hour for Dinner, Brian and Carl were going to shoot downtown to Columbia to record vocals for "Cabin Essence". I don't think the tracks are connected in any way other than that. I don't believe that section from April to be intended for "Child Is Father of the Man", certainly not a 3rd version of the song. It was most likely the bridge for the 3rd Version of "Wonderful" at the time. The titles logged for that sessions were as follows: Wonderful ['version 3'] Vega-Tables Child Is Father To The Man ['version 3']
On Top Of Old Smokey.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2019 18:03:38 GMT -5
The documentation we have for Smile is pretty thorough even if some tapes are missing. And in the case of the October 10th vocal session for Wind Chimes, we have that tape, and Holidays is not on it, nor is there any evidence that the original track was transferred to another tape or that any edits were made. It wasn't unusual for them to spend that long on very small sections of group vocals in that era, and the idea of connecting Holidays to Wind Chimes directly isn't something that came about until late 2003 when Darian noticed Brian had reused the melody from the Holidays tag for the Wind Chimes fade on Smiley. I hear ya man, the documentation is awesome, but sometimes it's misleading. Like when "Child Is Father of the Man" gets labeled as "Cabin Essence". If we didn't have that tape, we'd assume then that there were extra instrumental sections to "Cabin Essence" we don't have. Or like when the early version of "Vega-Tables" got labeled as "I'm In Great Shape". If we didn't have those tapes (which we don't), we'd assume (and we do unfortunately) that there were vocals recorded for a track that hadn't even been recorded yet, when in fact it was an entirely different version of "Vega-Tables" we haven't heard. Or those various "Multi-Track" vocal sessions near the end of December where the Band records vocals for pretty much ANYTHING on the album. A lot of these sessions were simply labeled "Heroes and Villains", and unfortunately most of us assume these recordings can only be for H&V, when there's musical evidence to the contrary. I doubt the validity of that tape, since it only has a lead vocal by Carl, and then background vocals on 1 chorus by the band. Please realize that everything we have on Smile...is left over. Things that were forgotten, and left behind. It's most likely at the start of the session (before Brian had even finished assembling the track) they recorded basic vocals for "Wind Chimes". Then Brian finished putting the song together and transferred over to a tape with "Holidays". Please don't type to me that it took FIVE hours for the band to record just what we hear. If that's true, then it's no wonder they couldn't get this album out by January; it would've taken them another year. I can't remember the interview, but there was one where Michael Vosse and David Anderle both talked about an acetate of the finished "Wind Chimes" song Brian used to play for them. They're description of it is beyond what we hear today. There were more vocals recorded. We don't have them. Everything we do have on Smile, is a left over. Everything finished was destroyed. The last part of your post proves my point really. Darian got the idea, from Brian himself. Darian heard a mix Brian made in 1967, so it's really a Brian idea that "Holidays" and "Wind Chimes" are connected. Not sure what you mean here...the August 25th session for Wonderful and the September 1st session for the GV organ bridge were both at Western Studio 3 with Bowen David engineering so it could've been either. On Smiley - he used his Baldwin organ on virtually the entire album. That's not true Salty. The engineer at the August 25th session was Bruce Botnick. While the engineers for both "He Gives Speeches" and the September 1st session was Bowen David. It's true Brian used the Organ all over Smiley unfortunately, but I was trying to get back to my original point on the similarities between the "Good Vibrations" organ tag and "He Gives Speeches" by mentioning the latter's earlier incarnation with an organ. I don't believe that section from April to be intended for "Child Is Father of the Man", certainly not a 3rd version of the song. It was most likely the bridge for the 3rd Version of "Wonderful" at the time. The titles logged for that sessions were as follows: Wonderful ['version 3'] Vega-Tables Child Is Father To The Man ['version 3']
On Top Of Old Smokey. Thanks so much Andrew! I'd really like to talk to you at some point, caused I'd like to get this kind of information on pretty much every session for Smile. What was "On Top of Old Smokey" btw? But Andrew let's get real: Why on earth would CFM come back up at that point? The song had not been worked on in months. But most importantly, can you figure out a way musically to fit that section into the CFM we know? I can't. I can figure out how to fit it into Wonderful perfectly. We're talking about music, and these labels aren't important when we can listen to the actual recording. If I showed you the Mona Lisa, but told you it was actually Starry Night, would you doubt me? You have the painting right there, in front of you to deny me. But are you only going to follow it's label? I'm not saying it was mislabeled. I'm saying it doesn't mean what you think it does. Listen to the track, first, then determine what it's for. We're making music here, not organizing a portfolio.
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Post by AGD on Mar 28, 2019 18:22:39 GMT -5
"On Top Of Old Smokey" is the childrens song that Brian and Paul McCartney recorded off the cuff at that session.
All the info from the Smile Sessions booklet has been on 10452 since November 2011. Took a while, but worth the effort.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2019 18:33:22 GMT -5
Um, Bruce Botnick was the engineer at Sunset Sound. I think you need to have another check there. OMG dude! I'm looking at May 25th instead of August! Thanks for pointing that out! I gotta go back and change my calendar (another mess up). Now that I've gotten everything straightened out, I agree with you now. It might've been both sessions! Certainly wasn't the May 25th one. Well, that's the way they rolled. If more was done at that session there would at least be some indication of it given that particular multitrack survived. Lack of evidence for something not happening doesn't overpower lack of evidence for it happening, that's getting into Domenic Priore territory. Point taken on the sometimes misleading documentation though. Last one: recycled =/= connected I hear ya, but that multi-track shouldn't have final say since it's missing the "Ending" sections of Wind Chimes. Brian didn't even finish piecing the track together, so I don't think we should take it as the final work: Brian obviously wasn't finished with it. I agree about what you're saying about Priore though, I try to avoid that territory. HOWEVER The scenario you wrote confuses me. If we're in a situation where both sides lack evidence, then no sides can be proven right or wrong, so who's to say? One side can't overpower the other because both sides have no evidence. What kind of philosophical debate are we getting into here?? Last one: You cannot prove it was recycled. What if it was an original idea to fadeout "Wind Chimes" with the Marimba tag from "Holidays". Btw, I don't really see anything on Smiley as recycled. Everything's just re-recorded. "On Top Of Old Smokey" is the childrens song that Brian and Paul McCartney recorded off the cuff at that session. All the info from the Smile Sessions booklet has been on 10452 since November 2011. Took a while, but worth the effort. Thanks Andrew! I'm definitely gonna go read up on your collection now! It'll definitely be worth the read.
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Post by Cam Mott on Mar 30, 2019 6:28:49 GMT -5
Based on the sessionography that quotes correct. Brian recorded at least by the end of August only 5 songs: "Good Vibrations", "Heroes And Villains", "Wind Chimes", "I Ran", and "Wonderful". I omit "He Gives Speeches" because I believe that was merely a section for another song (most likely "I Ran" based on my findings). I can't find any evidence in the sessionography for "Child Is Father of the Man" being worked on any earlier than October. Sessions for "Child..."
1966
10/7 - first version 10/11 - second version (logged as "Cabin Essence") 10/12 - vocals 12/2 - vocals 12/6 - vocals
1967 4/10 - third version
On August 12 1966 Brian described CIFOTM to Tom Nolan as a song he had already written.
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Post by Cam Mott on Mar 30, 2019 6:55:07 GMT -5
I'll get back to you about that later.
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Post by Cam Mott on Mar 30, 2019 10:10:17 GMT -5
GV was "Previewed September 28, 1966" as a "Boss Hit Bound" on KHJ's Boss 30 survey. What does "previewed" mean: on the air or on the survey, for the week ending September 28 or the week beginning September 28? Does anyone know when GV was actually being played on air by KHJ (or any other stations)? Any air checks or articles?
GV was apparently aired and charted at #49 on WTIX New Orleans' survey dated "October 8".
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Post by Cam Mott on Apr 16, 2019 11:08:19 GMT -5
So someone playing the organ keys while someone else played the foot pedals on a BBs recording was not unique to the September 1st GV session right?
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Post by AGD on Apr 17, 2019 6:18:25 GMT -5
That Dennis on the "GV" bridge, or so I've always understood.
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Post by craigslowinski on Apr 17, 2019 6:31:47 GMT -5
That Dennis on the "GV" bridge, or so I've always understood. Dennis played the Hammond organ on the released bridge section of "Good Vibrations"...unquestionably.
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Post by Cam Mott on Apr 17, 2019 7:12:02 GMT -5
That Dennis on the "GV" bridge, or so I've always understood. Dennis played the Hammond organ on the released bridge section of "Good Vibrations"...unquestionably. I agree the recordings are unquestionably Dennis. On the other hand, I also believe VDP was at this session just as he describes but it was not captured on tape for what ever reason; at least I don't have any reason not to believe it. Craig, re. the additional vocals recorded September 21, is there documentation or evidence whether the additional vocals were by the group or involved Dennis? Thanks.
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Post by Cam Mott on Jun 4, 2019 7:59:02 GMT -5
I can't always decipher VDP but to me his memory is pretty solid on most things. I believe (like most of us) some sort of mundane aspects drift away in the fog of life but some events burn bright and in detail like they were yesterday.
(Trying to remember what I did yesterday)
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