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Post by The Cap'n on Feb 8, 2019 19:27:05 GMT -5
The tides of not only popularity but critical acclaim seem ever more apparent to me as I watch the reputations of musicians rise, fall, rise, and fall again. For example, the Monkees were universally panned critically my entire life ... until they weren't. Until what they were was recognized as not just popular, but good. Conversely, some artists who were (critically) universally acclaimed--say, Beck--have fallen to not quite irredeemable status, but definitely not their earlier peaks.
I think about bands like Pink Floyd, the Beach Boys, Zeppelin, and others whose reputations come and go.
Anyone have any examples of artists, bands, or albums whose reputations have climbed or fallen over time? (I'm sure you do.)
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Post by kds on Feb 9, 2019 4:07:09 GMT -5
The big one that comes to mind is Queen. In early 1992, thanks in part to Wayne's World, I got into Queen. Little did I know that a well placed song in a movie coupled with the recent death of Freddie Mercury caused a lot of people, in the States in particular, to give the band another look.
I wasn't aware at the time, but Queen had become so unpopular in the US in the early 80s, they stopped touring here. And critics hated them from the start in 1973.
But, after Freddie's passing, prominent bands at the time like Guns N Roses and Metallica wore their Queen influence like a badge of honor, taking the stage at the Freddie Mercury Tribute Concert, which was broadcast on MTV in April 1992.
Suddenly, Queen were extremely popular, and their star continued to rise over the years thanks to the reissuing of their catalog, a successful musical based on their music, the live revival of the band first with Paul Rodgers now with Adam Lambert, and capped with the most successful biopic in history.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 6:32:34 GMT -5
Gary Numan was a mega star in the UK from 1979 at least until 1981 (in the US he is only known for the hit "Cars"--correct me if I'm wrong).
After Warriors (1983) he entered what you might call his Wilderness Years, a whole decade when he was treated as a has-been except by diehard Numanoids. This period ended with the appearance in 1994 of Sacrifice. It helped that artists like Marilyn Manson and Trent Reznor were beginning to acknowledge his influence on their music (mutual in the case of Reznor).
These days he is rightly regarded as a pioneer of mainstream synth pop.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 7:23:30 GMT -5
I wanted to relay a Robby Krieger story in this thread. It doesn't quite relate to reputation as much as popularity or demand. And, obviously, there is a difference.
Ray Manzarek's death hit me hard. Not only was I sad at Ray's passing in 2013 at age 74, but I was pissed - pissed at myself for never seeing him live in concert. I had my chances. The reunited Ray Manzarek and Robby Krieger toured for several years under various group names, and for reasons that I still struggle with, I never took the time to see him/them live. Only when Ray passed away did I realize what was lost, and that I would never experience his genius keyboard work in person.
How stupid of me. The surviving Doors were/are around for over forty-five years after breaking up, and I took it for granted. So, when I read that Robby Krieger was still touring, I was determined not to make the same mistake. In September 2017, I saw that Robby was performing at the Colonial Theatre in Phoenixville, PA (near Philadelphia), which was only about an hour and a half from my home. I called the theatre and got tickets for only $45 a piece; I could've gotten seats almost anywhere in the theatre; only the front rows were sold.
When I arrived in Phoenixville, I was surprised at what I saw. The Colonial Theatre was located downtown, in a row of businesses and older homes. There was no parking; I parked in a bank parking lot. People were sitting on their front porches (actually concrete steps) drinking beer and wine and watching the people coming to the show. The theatre was old (built in 1903) and the seating capacity was 658. It wasn't a dump, actually the theatre had a lot of character with its old architecture. As usual, I was one of the first people to arrive at the show. I was greeted by a young lady, the same lady who took my ticket order over the phone, the same lady who introduced Robby on stage, and the same lady who was the Manager of the theatre.
Where am I going with this and how does it relate to this thread? Robby was great. He and his band played all of The Doors' hits. The sound was great. The crowd was great. I was blown away. I kept saying to myself, "I can't believe I'm finally seeing Robby Krieger after all these years, right in front of me". It was one of the most enjoyable concerts I ever attended, but there was a tinge of, not exactly sadness, but maybe curiosity. This was Robby friggin' Krieger, the man who wrote "Light My Fire", "Touch Me", "Love Me Two Times", "Love Her Madly" and other Doors' classics. Robby Krieger is recognized as one of the greatest guitarists of the rock era. This was a guy who collaborated, performed, and lived with Jim Morrison.
Here was a then 71 year-old musician (in today's world certainly not THAT old) who was probably a multi-millionaire, with a mansion in Southern California, who could put his musical resume' up against any living musician - and he was playing a one night stand in a 658 seat theatre in Phoenixville, PA to an audience who paid $45 a ticket. And when I say playing I mean really playing - all of the notes, all of the riffs, all of the solos. But why? Why was Robby still doing it? As I was driving home with The Doors blasting from my car stereo, I could only come to the conclusion that Robby must really, really enjoy performing live. Maybe he needs it, not for the money; he wasn't making enough. Robby is a true artist and maybe he just loves sharing his art with others and the positive feedback he receives in return. It must be a real kick for him. If I get the chance, I'm going to see him again!
This is a photo of Robby the night of the show. Phil Chen, another brilliant musician, played bass.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 9:55:15 GMT -5
I think the stature of The Velvet Underground has slipped a little since Lou Reed's death. Not sure why outside of there being a ton of groups who tried to look and/or sound like them in the 80's and 90's and now there are hardly any.
Big Star was reappraised as the forefathers of Power Pop in the 1990's with a number of reissues, tribute albums and retrospectives. Their posthumous fame had grown so large that people forgot Alex Chilton had been in a more successful band before them. Now you never hear boo about them.
Nick Drake seems to have left the conversation too.
No band, however, has ever seen their critical stock fall as low as R.E.M. Once worshipped by rock critics (and commercially successful for a time too) they watched their own legacy diminish while they were still active.
U2 seem to be headed for a similar fate.
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Post by kds on Feb 9, 2019 10:20:46 GMT -5
On the heavy metal side, two of metals biggest acts - Judas Priest and Iron Maiden - often competed for the same audience in the States. In the 80s and 90s, Priest were always more popular but over the last 15 years, Maiden has eclipsed Priest, possibly due to Maiden's recent releases being stronger or the fact that Priest is now without both original guitarists.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 11:37:36 GMT -5
On the heavy metal side, two of metals biggest acts - Judas Priest and Iron Maiden - often competed for the same audience in the States. In the 80s and 90s, Priest were always more popular but over the last 15 years, Maiden has eclipsed Priest, possibly due to Maiden's recent releases being stronger or the fact that Priest is now without both original guitarists. This is a bit sad because just prior to the Nostradamus album, Priest were everywhere and seemed poised to take the crown. AC/DC were also pretty unassailable until Brian Johnston was let go and all hell broke loose. |
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Post by The Cap'n on Feb 9, 2019 11:46:08 GMT -5
Big Star was reappraised as the forefathers of Power Pop in the 1990's with a number of reissues, tribute albums and retrospectives. Their posthumous fame had grown so large that people forgot Alex Chilton had been in a more successful band before them. Now you never hear boo about them. All of your examples were good, but this one in particular I think is notable because of this: I think power pop (or even just vaguely melodic guitar-driven music in general) has exited the conversation entirely. It's the kind of thing that comes and goes, to be sure, but this is one of those moments where it simply doesn't seem to exist in any mass market variety.
There were some Big Star events around the time Chilton died, and there was at least one documentary (maybe straight to Netflix? Not sure) about them a few years back. But it was almost an afterthought at that point, I think, as opposed to filling any major market desire. It's a little sad that all the massive box sets, exhaustive reissue campaigns, etc., seem to be happening at a time when bands themselves are forgotten. Or maybe it's just that I'm older, less into all those things, and so it seems too late to me (but not to others).
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Post by kds on Feb 9, 2019 12:17:45 GMT -5
On the heavy metal side, two of metals biggest acts - Judas Priest and Iron Maiden - often competed for the same audience in the States. In the 80s and 90s, Priest were always more popular but over the last 15 years, Maiden has eclipsed Priest, possibly due to Maiden's recent releases being stronger or the fact that Priest is now without both original guitarists. This is a bit sad because just prior to the Nostradamus album, Priest were everywhere and seemed poised to take the crown. AC/DC were also pretty unassailable until Brian Johnston was let go and all hell broke loose. I think Nostradamus was the beginning of their downfall. A terrible album. Then, there was the non retirement that coincided with KK's leaving the band. I think KK's loss in felt in their last two albums. Now, Glenn's off the road, and the venues that Priest have played the last few years are much smaller than the ones they packed when Halford first returned. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 12:37:12 GMT -5
This is a bit sad because just prior to the Nostradamus album, Priest were everywhere and seemed poised to take the crown. AC/DC were also pretty unassailable until Brian Johnston was let go and all hell broke loose. I think Nostradamus was the beginning of their downfall. A terrible album. Then, there was the non retirement that coincided with KK's leaving the band. I think KK's loss in felt in their last two albums. Now, Glenn's off the road, and the venues that Priest have played the last few years are much smaller than the ones they packed when Halford first returned. Sounds like we need another thread: Why does the legacy of The Beach Boys continue to grow when the band itself is in a fractured state while other legacys suffer. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 12:44:15 GMT -5
I just read this week that Brian Johnson is back in AC/DC.
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Post by The Cap'n on Feb 9, 2019 12:56:49 GMT -5
I think Nostradamus was the beginning of their downfall. A terrible album. Then, there was the non retirement that coincided with KK's leaving the band. I think KK's loss in felt in their last two albums. Now, Glenn's off the road, and the venues that Priest have played the last few years are much smaller than the ones they packed when Halford first returned. Sounds like we need another thread: Why does the legacy of The Beach Boys continue to grow when the band itself is in a fractured state while other legacys suffer. I think one reason is that the BBs' legacy was, for various periods, in the toilet and had nowhere to go but up. In the '80s, most of what I recall hearing was that the old myth about how they were a surf-and-car, mostly primitive rock band that basically fizzled out after "Good Vibrations." That sure, Brian Wilson was a pop genius, but nobody else could do anything but sing, and that's why they didn't even play on their own albums. Obviously, the 90s saw indie pop artists (and some mainstream ones) help rehabilitate the image. And in the '10s, I think the lingering residue of the BWPS and then the boost of TSS, plus the other box sets and archival releases, continues to give evidence that there was more to the band than had been thought (by most audiences).
Conversely, these other bands whose reputations were strong had nowhere to go but down. The good news is, once their reputations suffer, they'll be in the other position and climb again. Especially in the world of the hot take, it's inevitable that critics will go against the (critical, popular, or both) consensus and raise the reputation of whoever has been forgotten or mocked. Hell, we see it now in both indie and mainstream pop with the resurgence of early 80s pop. Phil Fucking Collins is suddenly respected these past few years, and he was the epitome of the subject of scorn 10, 20 years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 13:18:29 GMT -5
Also, Brian Wilson is unique in that he's just as beloved and acclaimed for what he didn't record, release or finish. It's almost a self-perpetuating legacy that partially exists in the fantasies of the fans e.g. "Imagine what Brian could've written had SMiLE come out and altered the course of pop music".
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 14:15:34 GMT -5
Sounds like we need another thread: Why does the legacy of The Beach Boys continue to grow when the band itself is in a fractured state while other legacys suffer. I think one reason is that the BBs' legacy was, for various periods, in the toilet and had nowhere to go but up. In the '80s, most of what I recall hearing was that the old myth about how they were a surf-and-car, mostly primitive rock band that basically fizzled out after "Good Vibrations." That sure, Brian Wilson was a pop genius, but nobody else could do anything but sing, and that's why they didn't even play on their own albums. Obviously, the 90s saw indie pop artists (and some mainstream ones) help rehabilitate the image. And in the '10s, I think the lingering residue of the BWPS and then the boost of TSS, plus the other box sets and archival releases, continues to give evidence that there was more to the band than had been thought (by most audiences).
Conversely, these other bands whose reputations were strong had nowhere to go but down. The good news is, once their reputations suffer, they'll be in the other position and climb again. Especially in the world of the hot take, it's inevitable that critics will go against the (critical, popular, or both) consensus and raise the reputation of whoever has been forgotten or mocked. Hell, we see it now in both indie and mainstream pop with the resurgence of early 80s pop. Phil Fucking Collins is suddenly respected these past few years, and he was the epitome of the subject of scorn 10, 20 years ago.
Yeah I think that largely sums it up. No band can stay good for decades, there's always going to be horrible tours, a mediocre string of albums, a talented member dies, etc. The Beach Boys went through all that in the late 60s, the 80s and late 90s. Since then they've had enough time to bounce back. |
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Post by The Cap'n on Feb 9, 2019 14:35:25 GMT -5
Also, Brian Wilson is unique in that he's just as beloved and acclaimed for what he didn't record, release or finish. It's almost a self-perpetuating legacy that partially exists in the fantasies of the fans e.g. "Imagine what Brian could've written had SMiLE come out and altered the course of pop music". Absolutely. The two most untouchable (and thus popular) types of hero are probably the cut-short or never-was, cousins related by the sense of what could have been. Brian, despite a 50+-year career, is still probably considered more akin to a Syd Barrett or Buddy Holly or Jimi Hendrix, somebody who could have done such great things if only...
(The same idea applies in sports. In my favorite, basketball, you always think Len Bias would have been one of the greats of all time ... but most players, including super talented, very high draft picks, just end up OK, or pretty good. Not great. Lloyd Daniels would be the Brian analog, the guy who showed promise as a youngster but had issues interfere with his development. He hangs around anyway, always with just enough showing through for people to speculate, to suspect he's about to do it ... but he just keeps plugging along mostly unspectacularly. In Brian's case, of course, this is after almost a decade of brilliance, whereas with Lloyd he was a has-been by the time he hit his early 20s.)
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Post by kds on Feb 9, 2019 17:54:28 GMT -5
I think Nostradamus was the beginning of their downfall. A terrible album. Then, there was the non retirement that coincided with KK's leaving the band. I think KK's loss in felt in their last two albums. Now, Glenn's off the road, and the venues that Priest have played the last few years are much smaller than the ones they packed when Halford first returned. Sounds like we need another thread: Why does the legacy of The Beach Boys continue to grow when the band itself is in a fractured state while other legacys suffer. I think its because, and this is just a theory, The Beach Boys, with the one off exception of TWGMTR, have existed as a nostalgia band for a quarter century. Capn, I'm glad you mentioned Phil Collins. The sudden coolness of Phil Collins was one of the more expected music events of my lifetime. |
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