mike
Grommet
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Post by mike on May 13, 2024 10:55:52 GMT -5
H&V has a hugely disparate bunch of sections some of which are brilliant and some of which are just curiosities.
Thinking as a strong single here are the bits I think are the best and most worthy of a BBS follow up to GV:
The opening verses - obviously - classic
Barnyard - ostensibly a humorous depiction of a farm but musically an eerie little masterpiece
My Children both versions (cheating a bit including the slower one but only a bit)
Bicycle Rider (the BR and Ribbon of Concrete lyrics were written for H&V as told to me by VDP via email)
I've been in this town so long a capella
Barnshine (all 3 versions are strong - not truly versions I guess but evolving takes over the session)
Bits that I like but aren't top tier:
Cantina
The scat background vocals section
The Smiley chorus track
H&V intro/bag of tricks
The endless series of snippets of variations that are presumed for the second side of the single
I think the top bunch here is enough to make a fantastic track.
Cantina and the scat verse I don't think make it. I think Cantina is nice but not that great a melody and the scat section I think works better as BVs. If you compare it to the fireworks at the end of 'You Still Believe in Me' I think its nowhere near as impressive.
The insoluble problem as ever is how to get from section to section smoothly. Its just about possible with the bits I've mentioned but you'd really need BR to be transposed a semitone.
I've never heard a mix of H&V that I think works and lives up to the genius of the different sections. The best version for me is the Hawaii run through - sounds cohesive and less clashy.
(I don't mean use all the bits I've listed up top just that I think those are the strongest sections. My final mix would be something like the 45 but using BR instead of the 45 chorus and maybe trying to fit Barnyard in there.)
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barto2
Dude/Dudette
Posts: 51
Likes: 81 
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Post by barto2 on May 13, 2024 15:59:31 GMT -5
When it comes to H&V it's all gold to my unsophisticated ears
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felipe
Grommet
Posts: 31
Likes: 19
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Post by felipe on May 14, 2024 1:42:16 GMT -5
To a good single the only solution would be re-record the chorus. The Bycicle Rider session sounds as amateurish as He Gives Speeches, and the Smiley one sounds creepy. No part of Heroes and Villains sounds as catchy as Good Vibrations, so it would have to be longer and epic.
My structure would be:
1)First Verse
2)Chorus
3)Second Verse (Tag to Part 1 with some stupid chatting/Children Were Raised/Three Score and Five acapella/Whistling Bridge)
4)Chorus
5)Bridge (Cantina/Pickup to 3rd Verse)
6)Third Verse (Prelude To Fade with Sunny Down Snuff lyric)
7)Sunshine fade
I would use Barnyard as the b-side to the single between chants.
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Post by newbbfan on May 14, 2024 1:59:03 GMT -5
Please make the same analysis for "isn't it time"
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mike
Grommet
Posts: 18
Likes: 7
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Post by mike on May 14, 2024 2:41:32 GMT -5
Really..? I think BR - originally part of DYLW - is fantastic and one of Brian's most memorable parts. Sounds timeless and also like nothing else before or since. I do think the various parts of H&V are as catchy as GV but in their own way - GV is more pop and I think H&V is more rock - the verses particularly 'rock' don't they..? Still very avant garde. IIGS I don't particularly like at all neither the tracking we've heard nor the melody - I can see how it would work as part of its own track though (which I think is generally recognised as the 'barnyard suite'..?) To a good single the only solution would be re-record the chorus. The Bycicle Rider session sounds as amateurish as He Gives Speeches, and the Smiley one sounds creepy. No part of Heroes and Villains sounds as catchy as Good Vibrations, so it would have to be longer and epic. My structure would be: 1)First Verse 2)Chorus 3)Second Verse (Tag to Part 1 with some stupid chatting/Children Were Raised/Three Score and Five acapella/Whistling Bridge) 4)Chorus 5)Bridge (Cantina/Pickup to 3rd Verse) 6)Third Verse (Prelude To Fade with Sunny Down Snuff lyric) 7)Sunshine fade I would use Barnyard as the b-side to the single between chants. |
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mike
Grommet
Posts: 18
Likes: 7
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Post by mike on May 14, 2024 4:35:13 GMT -5
I think 'Iron Horse' works well as a H&V middle 8. Ofc its cheating but as 'Fire Intro' was at one point part of the song and the 2 pieces are extremely similar I think its reasonable to propose it. In fact the train whistle going into 'intro' is pretty 'trainy' isn't it..?
I might try a mix with a variation of WRTIH - I think with the track and vox elements we have its possible to make a version thats a bit different from CE so it becomes a repeating theme.
Its cheating but the section resolves instead of just winding down or going to a hard cut and thats what the song needs otherwise you end up with various sections just hard cutting into each other i.e. Cantina mix.
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felipe
Grommet
Posts: 31
Likes: 19
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Post by felipe on May 14, 2024 5:50:17 GMT -5
Really..? I think BR - originally part of DYLW - is fantastic and one of Brian's most memorable parts. Sounds timeless and also like nothing else before or since. I do think the various parts of H&V are as catchy as GV but in their own way - GV is more pop and I think H&V is more rock - the verses particularly 'rock' don't they..? Still very avant garde. IIGS I don't particularly like at all neither the tracking we've heard nor the melody - I can see how it would work as part of its own track though (which I think is generally recognised as the 'barnyard suite'..?) What you're asking was already done by Carl in all live performances, transposed to the right key. Mike even added the bass part from one of the Part 2 chants. It's better than Brian's attempt, but still sounds wacky to me. Maybe Brian could have arranged the chorus merging the rythm from Part 3(animals) with the weight from Vega-tables(fade)... interesting we disagree in everything: I think the verse backing track is the least impressive part of the song... it's clearly influenced by River Deep Mountain High, released months before, whose recording Brian attended. Its energetic though (in the early february mix). |
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felipe
Grommet
Posts: 31
Likes: 19
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Post by felipe on May 14, 2024 6:07:35 GMT -5
I think 'Iron Horse' works well as a H&V middle 8. Ofc its cheating but as 'Fire Intro' was at one point part of the song and the 2 pieces are extremely similar I think its reasonable to propose it. In fact the train whistle going into 'intro' is pretty 'trainy' isn't it..? I might try a mix with a variation of WRTIH - I think with the track and vox elements we have its possible to make a version thats a bit different from CE so it becomes a repeating theme. Its cheating but the section resolves instead of just winding down or going to a hard cut and thats what the song needs otherwise you end up with various sections just hard cutting into each other i.e. Cantina mix. I've tried to fit Heroes and Villains intro in every part of the song and the only one it made sense harmonically was starting Part 2 before Gee. But you're right they are both F-Bb-F with chromatic things. |
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mike
Grommet
Posts: 18
Likes: 7
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Post by mike on May 14, 2024 6:36:02 GMT -5
Yeah it is interesting we disagree - I think the BR section (originally in Worms as far as we know but later nabbed for H&V) is brilliant - atmospheric and timeless and one of Smile's strongest sections. I don't like 'intro' at all but you can't really completely fairly judge it as its so obviously unfinished. That said its hard to imagine any version with any kind of vocals being any good - its just so 'batty' - unlike the CE chorus which although very similar in structure has a genius arrangement. For me the longer Brian worked on Smile the worse it got - all that 'Rock with me Henry' stuff etc. I think 'Iron Horse' works well as a H&V middle 8. Ofc its cheating but as 'Fire Intro' was at one point part of the song and the 2 pieces are extremely similar I think its reasonable to propose it. In fact the train whistle going into 'intro' is pretty 'trainy' isn't it..? I might try a mix with a variation of WRTIH - I think with the track and vox elements we have its possible to make a version thats a bit different from CE so it becomes a repeating theme. Its cheating but the section resolves instead of just winding down or going to a hard cut and thats what the song needs otherwise you end up with various sections just hard cutting into each other i.e. Cantina mix. I've tried to fit Heroes and Villains intro in every part of the song and the only one it made sense harmonically was starting Part 2 before Gee |
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Post by Al Smith on May 14, 2024 7:58:18 GMT -5
Please make the same analysis for "isn't it time" LOL |
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Post by newbbfan on May 14, 2024 11:43:34 GMT -5
Yes they never seem to get isn't it time right because I like the remade version which I think adds Dave on guitar and I always like to hear Dave on any song, and also God Rest his soul they kicked Jeff off the bridge in the remade version but the sound quality and production of the single was inferior to the one on the album. And the lyrics in general in both versions are far from perfect
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