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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 18:12:42 GMT -5
We have one on the main board of Beach Boys "hot takes" so here's a thread for everything else.
Disco is a great genre of music and its only crimes were to become oversaturated and its association with gay nightclubs. "Disco sucks" was a subtle homosexual slur.
Syd-era Pink Floyd is best Pink Floyd
The Association are a great group if you're into soft rock/sunshine pop and deserve more recognition
The Stones are not great album artists. They have great songs but their albums are spotty--even the famous ones like Exile on Main Street and Sticky Fingers.
The Bonniwell Music Machine should have been allowed at Monterey. They're a good group that's sadly become obscure.
Forever Changes is the best album of 1967, which is saying a lot.
Woodstock is overrated. It was rainy, miserable and behind schedule if you were there. The performances sound like shit on the album. Monterey was a far better concert and deserves to be remembered as the cultural landmark instead.
With a few notable exceptions, I dont think music from before 1964 has stood the test of time generally speaking. The style of recording, simpler and/or Tin Pan Alley writing kind of date early rock in my opinion. I do respect Elvis, Buddy Holly and some of these other early acts as artists but I never listen to them.
Outside music, I think Quentin Tarantino's movies, while still really good, have been getting worse and worse since Kill Bill.
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Post by Beach Boys Fan on Jan 21, 2019 18:26:49 GMT -5
Wow, agree with you about Monterey! I talk with people in local Beatles forum & everybody chants "Woodstock's better than Monterey!" I say it's epic fail and they say "It's not". You got point, Leni. Well said re: the album.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 18:33:12 GMT -5
Wow, agree with you about Monterey! I talk with people in local Beatles forum & everybody chants "Woodstock's better than Monterey!" I say it's epic fail and they say "It's not". You got point, Leni. Well said re: the album. If you do blind sound tests where you just play the Monterey and Woodstock tracks back to back, I guarantee you anyone would pick Monterey and it wouldn't even be a close decision. With the exception of one or two acts, like Hendrix, everyone at Woodstock sounds out of practice and tired. Even the artists themselves (Grace Slick I recall specifically) said Monterey was the best festival. But the one I really want to see the concert footage for is the Newport Festival where flowers were "bombed" on concert goers from flyover planes, Cher was booed off the stage and Jefferson Airplane got in a pie fight with CSNY. For some asinine reason, the film has never been released.
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Post by jasonaustin on Jan 21, 2019 18:38:59 GMT -5
Disco is a great genre of music and its only crimes were to become oversaturated and its association with gay nightclubs. "Disco sucks" was a subtle homosexual slur. I agree disco is a great and underrated genre, especially the underground stuff that can still be found in some of your cooler cut-out bins. I have a huge collection of 12" singles and LPs that I scored for anywhere between 25 cents and a dollar that I frequently return to. That said, I have no idea if someone yelling "disco sucks" was doing it as a veiled homophobic slur or simply because they hated the music, as I was not around during the disco era. Syd-era Pink Floyd is best Pink Floyd Agreed. The Association are a great group if you're into soft rock/sunshine pop and deserve more recognition Agreed! The Stones are not great album artists. They have great songs but their albums are spotty--even the famous ones like Exile on Main Street and Sticky Fingers. Here's my hot take to end all hot takes: The Stones were a better band *with* Brian Jones. My interest in them falls off for the most part around Beggars Banquet. The Bonniwell Music Machine should have been allowed at Monterey. They're a good group that's sadly become obscure. Absolutely Positively. Forever Changes is the best album of 1967, which is saying a lot. Younger Than Yesterday and Buffalo Springfield Again are better. Woodstock is overrated. It was rainy, miserable and behind schedule if you were there. The performances sound like shit on the album. Monterey was a far better concert and deserves to be remembered as the cultural landmark instead. Agreed. I thought most of the performances sucked. (Woodstock I mean. Monterey was amazing for the most part.) With a few notable exceptions, I dont think music from before 1964 has stood the test of time generally speaking. The style of recording, simpler and/or Tin Pan Alley writing kind of date early rock in my opinion. I do respect Elvis, Buddy Holly and some of these other early acts as artists but I never listen to them. Strongly disagree. Outside music, I think Quentin Tarantino's movies, while still really good, have been getting worse and worse since Kill Bill. Agree for the most part, but I got quite a bit of enjoyment out of Hateful Eight, and I have a feeling Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is going to be a huge return to form. We'll see in July, I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 18:51:07 GMT -5
Forever Changes is the best album of 1967, which is saying a lot. This is the only one of your points I took exception with. The Doors' first album is better, IMO.
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 21, 2019 19:00:29 GMT -5
We have one on the main board of Beach Boys "hot takes" so here's a thread for everything else. Disco is a great genre of music and its only crimes were to become oversaturated and its association with gay nightclubs. "Disco sucks" was a subtle homosexual slur.
Syd-era Pink Floyd is best Pink Floyd The Association are a great group if you're into soft rock/sunshine pop and deserve more recognition The Stones are not great album artists. They have great songs but their albums are spotty--even the famous ones like Exile on Main Street and Sticky Fingers. The Bonniwell Music Machine should have been allowed at Monterey. They're a good group that's sadly become obscure. Forever Changes is the best album of 1967, which is saying a lot. Woodstock is overrated. It was rainy, miserable and behind schedule if you were there. The performances sound like shit on the album. Monterey was a far better concert and deserves to be remembered as the cultural landmark instead. With a few notable exceptions, I dont think music from before 1964 has stood the test of time generally speaking. The style of recording, simpler and/or Tin Pan Alley writing kind of date early rock in my opinion. I do respect Elvis, Buddy Holly and some of these other early acts as artists but I never listen to them. Outside music, I think Quentin Tarantino's movies, while still really good, have been getting worse and worse since Kill Bill. Disco is not my favorite music - but I don't think it is, or should be looked at though a sex-based lens. I think of music as gender neutral. It brought formal couples-dancing and formal dance instruction, out of the shadows, and was sort of a short-lived post-war (Vietnam) era, complete with spillover for several years into fashion, along with long collars, horrible polyester leisure suits, etc. Disco was connected with terrible fashion, which did suck in my opinion. It did not last long across the spectrum, because of any sexual connotation but because it was a one-trick pony, in my opinion. It gave the Bee Gees a second chance at stardom. It was the whole Saturday Night Fever phenomenon. Who knows if it spawned shows that we have today such as Dancing with the Stars and there are versions of that in Europe as well. It may have evolved later with a gender based identity but I don't believe for a second that the Disco sucks blowback was gender based. There were some great bands and singers who performed disco but I doubt there was a gender motivation involved. Second, it is hard to argue against Woodstock who will celebrate its 50th this year. I've been to that venue in Bethel, NY to see C50 as well as the Touring band, and the museum and the impact of that rainy, dirty, muddy event with performers such as Janis Joplin, CCR, Grateful Dead, Hendrix, Richie Havens, CSNY, etc. can not be underestimated from an historical point-of-view. The photos capture how that festival changed everything, including the anti-war movement and the impact that music had as a powerful people motivator. It was more than a music festival. "The essence of Woodstock was that we accomplished what we started out to do in the Sixties, which was to show that, as young people, were not going to back down from our political feelings, our emotional feelings, and our newly discovered citizenry." (caption under Richie Haven's photo from the Woodstock Museum.)
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 21, 2019 19:01:30 GMT -5
double post - my apologies!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 21:06:59 GMT -5
jasonaustin I agree with you on the Stones--Brian's my favorite too. My favorite album by them is actually Satanic Majesties which is a hot take in itself.
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Post by jasonaustin on Jan 21, 2019 21:27:06 GMT -5
jasonaustin I agree with you on the Stones--Brian's my favorite too. My favorite album by them is actually Satanic Majesties which is a hot take in itself. Same, it is my all-time favorite Stones record, perhaps tied with the Hot Rocks 2 compilation.
Have you heard the instrumentals outtakes from Satanic? The heart of the album for me is Brian Jones' mellotron going up against Nicky Hopkins' piano, and the two of them go off hard during these sessions. Keith will throw in a nice lick now and again, but it's really the Jones and Hopkins show.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 21:28:32 GMT -5
Interesting about Newport Festival. I didn't hear about it. Thanks for the info, Leni. What can you say about Altamont? Did you see Jean Luc Godard's "Rock & Roll Circus"? I'll begin - based in everything I read, Altamont is epic fail, many bad incidents, dangerous, people who went to see the show don't even listen to music. They're so stupid, gosh dee darn. I never got what's the point in going to shows and not listening to what's being performed. They went there to just start dumb as hell riots and in the end they got what they begged for, got punished. I'd seen R&RC - it's way too short. Half-interesting inspireless numbers except The Who's & Taj Mahal's maybe. I haven't seen R&R Circus but I did see the documentary Gimme Shelter. My take on Altamont is that it's a fascinating cultural turning point but would have been a nightmare to attend. The movie is one of my favorites though. I think it shows Jefferson Airplane were a lot more respectable than some of their peers like the Grateful Dead and Stones themselves. The Dead chickened out (and probably made the crowd more raucous by doing so) and the Stones not only organized the whole fiasco but also didn't stand up to the Angels. Meanwhile JA's Marty Balin jumped into the fray to help out some people getting beat up by the Angels, and Jorma Kaukonen called them out directly. They might not have been the greatest band, but I always really respected JA after seeing that. Im sure some people there were stupid but I think you can blame the Angels for escalating the violence. They asserted their dominance from the beginning by driving thru the crowd on motor cycles and since different Chapters were there, everyone was trying to prove to the others how tough they were. I always saw Meredith Hunter as a tragic figure and I wish I could find out more about him. All I've been able to find is a Rolling Stones article about how he was a snazzy dresser and loved the outdoors. I think bringing a gun to a concert was stupid, but I dont think he intended violence. The Angels harassed him for being a black guy with his arm around a white woman. Theres an interesting bootleg of the Stones portion of the concert called "The Killer Festival." I heard it and it reveals some disturbing details left out of the GS film. Apparently there was a five year old girl separated from her parent(s) that was hanging around nearby the stage. Mick makes some announcements between tracks trying to locate her guardian(s). Imagine how traumatized that poor girl must have been seeing so much violence, the stabbing, the scary Angels...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 21:33:18 GMT -5
jasonaustin I agree with you on the Stones--Brian's my favorite too. My favorite album by them is actually Satanic Majesties which is a hot take in itself. Same, it is my all-time favorite Stones record, perhaps tied with the Hot Rocks 2 compilation.
Have you heard the instrumentals outtakes from Satanic? The heart of the album for me is Brian Jones' mellotron going up against Nicky Hopkins' piano, and the two of them go off hard during these sessions. Keith will throw in a nice lick now and again, but it's really the Jones and Hopkins show.
I haven't but I will now!
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Post by kds on Jan 21, 2019 22:22:46 GMT -5
@iluvleniloud, thats funny I was going to start a similar thread earlier today, but didnt complete it.
I do have to respectfully disagree with your saying "disco sucks" in a subtle homosexual slur. In some outlying cases, that might prove true. But, I think its a little misguided to make a blanket statement equating one's dislike for a genre with dislike of a group of people.
Frankly, I think disco sucks. I thought disco sucked years before I knew of any corelation between disco and homosexual night clubs. Most of my friends and many in my family also think disco sucks, but its because of the music itself, not who may be listening to it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 22:26:35 GMT -5
Here is an excellent and detailed - and long - article on Altamont, written by Lester Bangs.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 22:41:18 GMT -5
Admittedly I could be wrong, but I always thought "sucks" referred to...well...you know. Hence why they chose that particular word as opposed to "stinks" or something.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 22:44:57 GMT -5
@iluvleniloud , thats funny I was going to start a similar thread earlier today, but didnt complete it. I do have to respectfully disagree with your saying "disco sucks" in a subtle homosexual slur. In some outlying cases, that might prove true. But, I think its a little misguided to make a blanket statement equating one's dislike for a genre with dislike of a group of people. Frankly, I think disco sucks. I thought disco sucked years before I knew of any corelation between disco and homosexual night clubs. Most of my friends and many in my family also think disco sucks, but its because of the music itself, not who may be listening to it. Im sorry, I didnt mean to imply everyone who didnt like it was homophobic. I do think that was a non-negligible part of the backlash though, and along with the oversaturation was the main reason the blowback was so vitriolic. To this day "disco" is still something of a dirty word you don't see too many people embrace.
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Post by kds on Jan 21, 2019 22:52:28 GMT -5
@iluvleniloud , thats funny I was going to start a similar thread earlier today, but didnt complete it. I do have to respectfully disagree with your saying "disco sucks" in a subtle homosexual slur. In some outlying cases, that might prove true. But, I think its a little misguided to make a blanket statement equating one's dislike for a genre with dislike of a group of people. Frankly, I think disco sucks. I thought disco sucked years before I knew of any corelation between disco and homosexual night clubs. Most of my friends and many in my family also think disco sucks, but its because of the music itself, not who may be listening to it. Im sorry, I didnt mean to imply everyone who didnt like it was homophobic. I do think that was a non-negligible part of the backlash though, and along with the oversaturation was the main reason the blowback was so vitriolic. To this day "disco" is still something of a dirty word you don't see too many people embrace. Thats fair, but I think its more to do with the music itself, especially once rock bands started using disco beats in their songs. Its one thing if a genre you dont like is popular, but when said genre bleeds into the genre you like, that's when I think a lot of people got pissed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 23:29:35 GMT -5
I do not understand people trashing disco haters. I hate it with passion. But when you state it, they quickly write you off as "square", "safe" music listener. As if squareness is rated by if you like disco or don't. It's not right attitude. Ive never seen that, but I have seen the other side--people giving disco fans a hard time, liking soft/safe music, etc. In any case, different strokes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 0:09:25 GMT -5
The term "Disco Sucks" was actually coined by future Brian Wilson friend and associate, Chicago DJ Steve Dahl.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 0:23:45 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 0:30:48 GMT -5
I remember that Disco Demolition Night very well. First, I was a big baseball fan, and second, admittedly I hated disco music at that time. It was all over the news.
However, when I eventually started to DJ, I learned to not only appreciate disco music but actually like some of it, too. Whenever I needed an ace or needed to get some people out on the dance floor, I would turn to KC & The Sunshine Band, Village People, Donna Summer, or the Saturday Night Fever Soundtrack to bail me out!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 0:34:51 GMT -5
I remember that Disco Demolition Night very well. First, I was a big baseball fan, and second, admittedly I hated disco music at that time. It was all over the news.
However, when I eventually started to DJ, I learned to not only appreciate disco music but actually like some of it, too. Whenever I needed an ace or needed to get some people out on the dance floor, I would turn to KC & The Sunshine Band, Village People, Donna Summer, or the Saturday Night Fever Soundtrack to bail me out!
That's awesome you were a DJ. Any other observations from your experience you'd care to share? A perfect playlist or something like that? As it happens, while skimming through that wiki page, I actually came across this scholarly article about the role of homophobia in the anti-disco movement. So the idea is not totally unfounded or overstated, though again I get that some people just plain didnt like it. EDIT: And another scholarly article.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 0:43:48 GMT -5
I remember that Disco Demolition Night very well. First, I was a big baseball fan, and second, admittedly I hated disco music at that time. It was all over the news.
However, when I eventually started to DJ, I learned to not only appreciate disco music but actually like some of it, too. Whenever I needed an ace or needed to get some people out on the dance floor, I would turn to KC & The Sunshine Band, Village People, Donna Summer, or the Saturday Night Fever Soundtrack to bail me out! That's awesome you were a DJ. Any other observations from your experience you'd care to share? A perfect playlist or something like that? As it happens, while skimming through that wiki page, I actually came across this scholarly article about the role of homophobia in the anti-disco movement. So the idea is not totally unfounded or overstated, though again I get that some people just plain didnt like it. Don't get me started! Seriously, I could talk about DJing for hours. While I didn't exactly have a "perfect playlist", you actually did play a lot of the same songs at most functions. You just learned or picked up from your audience which songs seemed to consistently work. We called them "aces". When the dance floor was filled, you made a mental note which song got it that way. And, conversely, when you emptied the dance floor, you remembered that bomb, too. It was kind of a game you played, and the object of the game was to get as many people on the dance floor as possible - and keep them there.
I gotta go now but sometime I will list some of my "aces". Maybe some other DJ's out there could list their's.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 0:47:32 GMT -5
Thanks, @sheriff !
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Post by kds on Jan 22, 2019 1:36:24 GMT -5
One thing I'll say about disco is that it sounds great compared to the dance music that came after (ie. techno, electro, house, EDM, etc).
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Post by kds on Jan 22, 2019 8:27:19 GMT -5
Unpopular Music Opinions:
- Nirvana is the most overrated band / artist in history.
- I love Led Zeppelin, but I think they tend to get a little overrated too. When it comes to early hard rock, I'll take Deep Purple, The Who, Black Sabbath, and Queen over Led Zeppelin any day.
- The 1980s were the last great decade for music. Not only was it a banner decade for hard rock and heavy metal, but it featured some solid released from many legacy artists - all four Beatles, The Who, The Stones, Queen, Purple, Floyd, etc. Plus, the 80s was actually a great decade for pop. Actual talent went into pop music then unlike now.
- Twenty years ago, Metallica were vilified for going after the file sharing service Napster, but they were on point. The rise of downloads and streaming has been extremely detrimental to music over the past two decades.
- I will never understand the general dislike towards melodic, radio friendly rock music of the 70s and 80s, be it AOR or 80s hard rock. Despite what elitists, hipsters, and critics will say, I'll take the music of Boston, Eddie Money, Foreigner, Bon Jovi, and Def Leppard over punk or alternative any day.
Unpopular Pop Culture Opinions:
- Wild Hogs (2007) is a very funny movie, and had it been released in the 1980s would've been far more popular. Somewhere around 1994, comedy changed. It seemed that, for a comedy movie to succeed, it either needed to be a hard R or a kids movie. Movies that didn't rely on blue humor, bad language, or sex (ie. Wild Hogs or Jingle All the Way) were suddenly not in vogue. Granted, I enjoy a good R rated comedy, but I pine for the simple fun of John Candy movies.
- I miss traditional animation. For some reason, traditional animation seems to be limited to mostly adult orientated animated TV shows, and most other animated shows or movies are mostly computer animated. I actually would've enjoyed the 2015 Peanuts Movie far more had it been done in traditional style.
- Thirty years later, the Tim Burton version of Batman is still the best. It offers the perfect mix of light and shade. It's not as campy as the 1960s version, and it's not as super serious as the Christopher Nolan trilogy.
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