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Post by Cam Mott on Jan 21, 2019 11:40:49 GMT -5
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Post by craigslowinski on Jan 21, 2019 11:52:53 GMT -5
Well!
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Post by Cam Mott on Jan 21, 2019 12:15:10 GMT -5
They both have strong opinions about each other but I can't help but think some one to one communication could have cleared it up.
This is totally a conjecture but I also wonder if this being played out on a Pynchon forum didn't turn the heat up a little for Jules? Maybe not.
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 21, 2019 13:30:45 GMT -5
Well, that was something - and nothing one bit surprising. Thanks for that.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Jan 26, 2019 18:26:30 GMT -5
I am not surprised one bit. I have always thought that Anderle wormed his way into Brian’s world, but never really gave a shit about The Beach Boys. As fast as Anderle and the Posse came into Brian’s life, the faster they left it after the collapse of Smile.
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Post by Cam Mott on Jan 27, 2019 0:55:09 GMT -5
To me it is a reminder there are always two sides (at least) to every story and also of how young and ambitious they all were.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 4:40:51 GMT -5
Did they leave after SMiLE or were they kicked out? If Anderle was a phony does that really mean anything for Vosse and the rest?
Its interesting stuff, but I dont think we can hang everyone out to dry over one guy's condemnations of a single person. Who knows what really happened.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 5:11:47 GMT -5
Did they leave after SMiLE or were they kicked out? If Anderle was a phony does that really mean anything for Vosse and the rest? Its interesting stuff, but I dont think we can hang everyone out to dry over one guy's condemnations of a single person. Who knows what really happened. I distinctly remember reading something you wrote about the importance of Vosse as a source. All hail to Time Machine! ... It was in your "Psychedelic Sounds" piece.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 9:05:26 GMT -5
I think the "posse situation" was complicated and I still find myself wavering on the subject. Sometimes I do think those guys were maybe "hangers on" and basically doing little work and a lot of playing. But then I ask myself, what if in 1966 Brian Wilson approached me to record a bunch of sound effects, and I spent an hour a day recording gurgling water, and spent the rest of the day eating, drinking, smoking, partying, and listening to SMiLE tracks. Would I take that gig? Hell yeah!
Then I remember Marilyn Wilson referring to some of them as "drainers". She couldn't wait to get rid of them and reclaim her house, her husband, and her life. So I think, well, she knew Brian better than anybody, and wouldn't she know what was best for him? Yes...you would think.
But then I remember reading something that David Anderle said, and I'm paraphrasing, that "as long as the music's good..." Yeah, it was good alright. On the hand, I remember something similar that Loren (Schwartz) Daro said as he was defending Brian's LSD use. He was pointing out the wonderful and brilliant music Brian came up in the period just after he began experimenting with LSD. So, was Anderle's point valid and was Daro scum?
I have mixed feelings. While the people around Brian might've had a positive effect on the music - how much we'll never know, Brian ain't talking - at the same time you have to weigh how much personal damage was inflicted on Brian. In the posse's case, and to a large extent Daro's case, too, you can't place the blame entirely on them. Brian migrated to them, Brian brought them in, Brian wanted that environment. People didn't say "no" to Brian Wilson in those days. And the musical results were astounding, that's indisputable. But at what cost? At what cost to a drug addicted, mentally ill man? Yeah, they didn't know that at the time, but there were certainly signs. Marilyn saw it, Mike Love saw it; so did the rest of the band. Two things we do know, Brian Wilson was never the same and the music was never as great, IMO of course...
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 27, 2019 9:30:11 GMT -5
To me it is a reminder there are always two sides (at least) to every story and also of how young and ambitious they all were. Anderle, IIRC (someone can correct me on this) was able to "claw back" for unpaid royalties to the band - and helped get Brother off the ground. Sometimes - when you have a core group in business (band) who are "away from the office" for long periods of time, others become involved and the waters get muddied and they end up making decisions that should be made by the owners (band members.) It is/was a very hard era to unpack - to assess what really went down and also figure out who had a stake that was only indirectly connected to the band but somehow the tail ends up wagging the dog or changing the narrative.And, I will never buy that narrative that the band chucked the project after all the hours in the studio and given that it was to be their first major release on Brother. Who gets a divorce from a major label, to get some artistic control back, and spends countless hours on tracks besides touring and then stuffs all the work in a locker? (Then you have these stories that the tapes were burned - strongly refuted by Carl.) Below, at about 55 seconds into the interview. There is little credibility for me, and it would be like lighting 20 dollar bills on fire to start a new company and not follow through with the first major project. You either believe the band - the primary source, or you believe those connected to the press who are secondary sources.
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 27, 2019 9:42:01 GMT -5
I think the "posse situation" was complicated and I still find myself wavering on the subject. Sometimes I do think those guys were maybe "hangers on" and basically doing little work and a lot of playing. But then I ask myself, what if in 1966 Brian Wilson approached me to record a bunch of sound effects, and I spent an hour a day recording gurgling water, and spent the rest of the day eating, drinking, smoking, partying, and listening to SMiLE tracks. Would I take that gig? Hell yeah!
Then I remember Marilyn Wilson referring to some of them as "drainers". She couldn't wait to get rid of them and reclaim her house, her husband, and her life. So I think, well, she knew Brian better than anybody, and wouldn't she know what was best for him? Yes...you would think.
But then I remember reading something that David Anderle said, and I'm paraphrasing, that "as long as the music's good..." Yeah, it was good alright. On the hand, I remember something similar that Loren (Schwartz) Daro said as he was defending Brian's LSD use. He was pointing out the wonderful and brilliant music Brian came up in the period just after he began experimenting with LSD. So, was Anderle's point valid and was Daro scum?
I have mixed feelings. While the people around Brian might've had a positive effect on the music - how much we'll never know, Brian ain't talking - at the same time you have to weigh how much personal damage was inflicted on Brian. In the posse's case, and to a large extent Daro's case, too, you can't place the blame entirely on them. Brian migrated to them, Brian brought them in, Brian wanted that environment. People didn't say "no" to Brian Wilson in those days. And the musical results were astounding, that's indisputable. But at what cost? At what cost to a drug addicted, mentally ill man? Yeah, they didn't know that at the time, but there were certainly signs. Marilyn saw it, Mike Love saw it; so did the rest of the band. Two things we do know, Brian Wilson was never the same and the music was never as great, IMO of course...
Daro was defending the indefensible. Brian has consistently contended that this LSD was the source of his auditory hallucinations. Yes, you can blame them. I disagree. He was an agent or working, as connected to an agency, and not supposed to cause harm, even if at the moment LSD was not illegal - it was known as a dangerous substance. That is the "everyone is doing it" (all the cool people) defense. It does not matter - it is like your kid asking you for a cigarette or a 3 year old looking to play with matches. And they beg - and scream because they are curious. The one in authority says, "No." Then, IIRC - he (Daro) let Brian drive around? WTH?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 9:47:09 GMT -5
I think the "posse situation" was complicated and I still find myself wavering on the subject. Sometimes I do think those guys were maybe "hangers on" and basically doing little work and a lot of playing. But then I ask myself, what if in 1966 Brian Wilson approached me to record a bunch of sound effects, and I spent an hour a day recording gurgling water, and spent the rest of the day eating, drinking, smoking, partying, and listening to SMiLE tracks. Would I take that gig? Hell yeah!
Then I remember Marilyn Wilson referring to some of them as "drainers". She couldn't wait to get rid of them and reclaim her house, her husband, and her life. So I think, well, she knew Brian better than anybody, and wouldn't she know what was best for him? Yes...you would think.
But then I remember reading something that David Anderle said, and I'm paraphrasing, that "as long as the music's good..." Yeah, it was good alright. On the hand, I remember something similar that Loren (Schwartz) Daro said as he was defending Brian's LSD use. He was pointing out the wonderful and brilliant music Brian came up in the period just after he began experimenting with LSD. So, was Anderle's point valid and was Daro scum?
I have mixed feelings. While the people around Brian might've had a positive effect on the music - how much we'll never know, Brian ain't talking - at the same time you have to weigh how much personal damage was inflicted on Brian. In the posse's case, and to a large extent Daro's case, too, you can't place the blame entirely on them. Brian migrated to them, Brian brought them in, Brian wanted that environment. People didn't say "no" to Brian Wilson in those days. And the musical results were astounding, that's indisputable. But at what cost? At what cost to a drug addicted, mentally ill man? Yeah, they didn't know that at the time, but there were certainly signs. Marilyn saw it, Mike Love saw it; so did the rest of the band. Two things we do know, Brian Wilson was never the same and the music was never as great, IMO of course...
I wrote my opinions on these guys pretty thoroughly on the "hot takes" thread, but I'd like to reiterate some of the key points here: I think the posse are all different individuals with their own personalities, motives and morals and we should stop lumping them together into this monolithic, singular entity. It's pretty well agreed upon Daro wasn't a good man. If we take these messages about Anderle as 100% truthful (and personally, I don't) then maybe he wasn't either. But that's not enough to convict Vosse and the rest of them as being terrible people. I think the fact that they're not bandmembers allows some Beach Boys fans a blank check to use them all as scapegoats for everything wrong that happened in this period. If you're gonna condemn Mike then that offends a portion of the fanbase and youd have to rectify his bad actions with his good ones. Same if you were to blame Brian. But it's easy to throw some random nobodies under the bus and leave it at that. But for me that's not the honest thing to do, when looking at the situation objectively. As we can see from just these three correspondences, and the contradictory anecdotes surrounding the SMiLE sessions, everyone was at least somewhat at fault. Going by the "he said she said" anecdotes of who was at fault is messy and without hard corroborating evidence, we can't be 100% sure who's lying to push a narrative or innocently misremembering decades after the events they're describing. We need to account for each actor's biases both at the time and when they're telling the story. Just as an example, of course Mike is going to paint these guys as worthless hangers-on since he didn't know them, he was resentful at being left out of the creative process, and they didn't respect him either. That doesn't mean everything Mike says is wrong, but it's just something to consider when weighing his testimony. Another example, Brian's been to hell and back on countless drug cocktails of his own and Landy's making. So his testimony on the subject, especially decades later, is also suspect. Similarly, he's a pretty passive guy who's known to say what he thinks the people in the immediate vicinity want to hear and/or whatever will end the interview the fastest. VDP is almost certainly going to play up the anti-Mike angle because he lost a lucrative gig on his account. He's tactful enough to know that "attacking" a man who's been through what Brian has isn't going to look good. So he seems to downplay the anecdotes of Brian ordering him around and the two getting resentful of each other. Also, he and Brian seem to be on the outs the last few years, so he probably wont have much positive to say about anyone BB related these days--which is evident in that he backed up Daro's claims from SS. Marilyn's husband and life were falling apart and of course she's going to hate these news guys who seemed to enter the picture just as everything went south. However, based on Daro's crass insults towards her even decades later, it's clear she had good reason to hate them (at least some of them.) So anyway, with all these contradictory accounts, I mostly go by the evidence that's on tape as well as the testimony which goes against the biased narrative you'd expect its teller to be pushing. This is why I put most stock into the Psychedelic Sounds recordings, Vosse articles and Anderle articles. And on those tapes I hear Vosse being nothing execpt 100% respectful and helpful towards Brian's vision at all times. What's more, despite losing out on a lucrative career opportunity thanks to Brian's erratic behavior, he remained reverent and honest about the project and Brian's creative genius even two years later. I also hear Brian as an impulsive guy dragging these guys around in the middle of the night to record his every whim with no clear direction nor any obvious incentive for them to do so. They're not the ones being rude or goading him to do things he doesn't want to--it's clearly the other way around. You can hear some of them complaining about it towards the end of the Nov 4 and Lifeboat sessions. During the latter, the rest of them are perfectly willing to go along with Brian's weird experiment but he keeps angrily yelling at them to shut up, or staging a fight with Vosse which no one else knew was going to happen and didn't react to it in the way he'd expected. When the idea blows up in his face, Brian angrily leaves everyone to play piano as Vosse tries to keep it together and explain what Brian was trying to do. In short, Brian (at least sometimes) was the one being an aimless jerk to people, not the Vosse Posse. That doesn't mean some of the Vosse Posse might not have been bad guys, or done bad things too. But painting them all as 100% the cause of all the problems isn't truthful to a good portion of the evidence. Also, based on what I've seen, I think Brian was the one who dropped contact with them, not the other way around.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 9:52:29 GMT -5
Also, I think some of you infantilize Brian way too much when looking back on this period. He was unwell, but not debilitated and besides, nobody knew the full extent of his mental illness yet. If he wanted to (and eventually, he did) he could have kicked all the Vosse Posse out. If he'd wanted to, he would have gotten drugs from someone else. (And according to the wikipedia last I read it, Brian was the one who, from the first, was buying drugs for this sessions not anyone else.) Comparing Brian to a three year old and the Posse members to his adult guardians is not only a ridiculous exaggeration but it's insulting to Brian as the grown man he was. He chose to do these substances and explore psychedelia with his new music and you can't put that on anyone else except him.
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 27, 2019 10:04:10 GMT -5
I think the "posse situation" was complicated and I still find myself wavering on the subject. Sometimes I do think those guys were maybe "hangers on" and basically doing little work and a lot of playing. But then I ask myself, what if in 1966 Brian Wilson approached me to record a bunch of sound effects, and I spent an hour a day recording gurgling water, and spent the rest of the day eating, drinking, smoking, partying, and listening to SMiLE tracks. Would I take that gig? Hell yeah!
Then I remember Marilyn Wilson referring to some of them as "drainers". She couldn't wait to get rid of them and reclaim her house, her husband, and her life. So I think, well, she knew Brian better than anybody, and wouldn't she know what was best for him? Yes...you would think.
But then I remember reading something that David Anderle said, and I'm paraphrasing, that "as long as the music's good..." Yeah, it was good alright. On the hand, I remember something similar that Loren (Schwartz) Daro said as he was defending Brian's LSD use. He was pointing out the wonderful and brilliant music Brian came up in the period just after he began experimenting with LSD. So, was Anderle's point valid and was Daro scum?
I have mixed feelings. While the people around Brian might've had a positive effect on the music - how much we'll never know, Brian ain't talking - at the same time you have to weigh how much personal damage was inflicted on Brian. In the posse's case, and to a large extent Daro's case, too, you can't place the blame entirely on them. Brian migrated to them, Brian brought them in, Brian wanted that environment. People didn't say "no" to Brian Wilson in those days. And the musical results were astounding, that's indisputable. But at what cost? At what cost to a drug addicted, mentally ill man? Yeah, they didn't know that at the time, but there were certainly signs. Marilyn saw it, Mike Love saw it; so did the rest of the band. Two things we do know, Brian Wilson was never the same and the music was never as great, IMO of course...
I wrote my opinions on these guys pretty thoroughly on the "hot takes" thread, but I'd like to reiterate some of the key points here: I think the posse are all different individuals with their own personalities, motives and morals and we should stop lumping them together into this monolithic, singular entity. It's pretty well agreed upon Daro wasn't a good man. If we take these messages about Anderle as 100% truthful (and personally, I don't) then maybe he wasn't either. But that's not enough to convict Vosse and the rest of them as being terrible people. I think the fact that they're not bandmembers allows some Beach Boys fans a blank check to use them all as scapegoats for everything wrong that happened in this period. If you're gonna condemn Mike then that offends a portion of the fanbase and youd have to rectify his bad actions with his good ones. Same if you were to blame Brian. But it's easy to throw some random nobodies under the bus and leave it at that. But for me that's not the honest thing to do, when looking at the situation objectively. As we can see from just these three correspondences, and the contradictory anecdotes surrounding the SMiLE sessions, everyone was at least somewhat at fault. Going by the "he said she said" anecdotes of who was at fault is messy and without hard corroborating evidence, we can't be 100% sure who's lying to push a narrative or innocently misremembering decades after the events they're describing. We need to account for each actor's biases both at the time and when they're telling the story. Just as an example, of course Mike is going to paint these guys as worthless hangers-on since he didn't know them, he was resentful at being left out of the creative process, and they didn't respect him either. That doesn't mean everything Mike says is wrong, but it's just something to consider when weighing his testimony. Another example, Brian's been to hell and back on countless drug cocktails of his own and Landy's making. So his testimony on the subject, especially decades later, is also suspect. Similarly, he's a pretty passive guy who's known to say what he thinks the people in the immediate vicinity want to hear and/or whatever will end the interview the fastest. VDP is almost certainly going to play up the anti-Mike angle because he lost a lucrative gig on his account. He's tactful enough to know that "attacking" a man who's been through what Brian has isn't going to look good. So he seems to downplay the anecdotes of Brian ordering him around and the two getting resentful of each other. Also, he and Brian seem to be on the outs the last few years, so he probably wont have much positive to say about anyone BB related these days--which is evident in that he backed up Daro's claims from SS. Marilyn's husband and life were falling apart and of course she's going to hate these news guys who seemed to enter the picture just as everything went south. However, based on Daro's crass insults towards her even decades later, it's clear she had good reason to hate them (at least some of them.) So anyway, with all these contradictory accounts, I mostly go by the evidence that's on tape as well as the testimony which goes against the biased narrative you'd expect its teller to be pushing. This is why I put most stock into the Psychedelic Sounds recordings, Vosse articles and Anderle articles. And on those tapes I hear Vosse being nothing execpt 100% respectful and helpful towards Brian's vision at all times. What's more, despite losing out on a lucrative career opportunity thanks to Brian's erratic behavior, he remained reverent and honest about the project and Brian's creative genius even two years later. I also hear Brian as an impulsive guy dragging these guys around in the middle of the night to record his every whim with no clear direction nor any obvious incentive for them to do so. They're not the ones being rude or goading him to do things he doesn't want to--it's clearly the other way around. You can hear some of them complaining about it towards the end of the Nov 4 and Lifeboat sessions. During the latter, the rest of them are perfectly willing to go along with Brian's weird experiment but he keeps angrily yelling at them to shut up, or staging a fight with Vosse which no one else knew was going to happen and didn't react to it in the way he'd expected. When the idea blows up in his face, Brian angrily leaves everyone to play piano as Vosse tries to keep it together and explain what Brian was trying to do. In short, Brian (at least sometimes) was the one being an aimless jerk to people, not the Vosse Posse. That doesn't mean some of the Vosse Posse might not have been bad guys, or done bad things too. But painting them all as 100% the cause of all the problems isn't truthful to a good portion of the evidence. Also, based on what I've seen, I think Brian was the one who dropped contact with them, not the other way around. This is a not the whole career, but a particular window of time, and before Landy. Everything does not go into the kitchen sink. Artists often work all night. On Brian Wilson Songwriter - Fred Vail talks about how Brian would call him late at night to come over and listen to new tracks. There are inconsistencies in these Smile stories. Tapes burned because Jules said so? The "tapes burned" took on a life of its own. One that we listened to for nearly 20 years until Carl cleared that up. Carl is/was a primary source. (Van Dyke is/was a very versatile guy who had lots going on - with his resume besides BB involvement.) And under evidence standards, since this is about "evidence" - Carl's account comes before a secondary source such as an employee or press person.
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 27, 2019 10:08:17 GMT -5
Also, I think some of you infantilize Brian way too much when looking back on this period. He was unwell, but not debilitated and besides, nobody knew the full extent of his mental illness yet. If he wanted to (and eventually, he did) he could have kicked all the Vosse Posse out. If he'd wanted to, he would have gotten drugs from someone else. (And according to the wikipedia last I read it, Brian was the one who, from the first, was buying drugs for this sessions not anyone else.) Comparing Brian to a three year old and the Posse members to his adult guardians is not only a ridiculous exaggeration but it's insulting to Brian as the grown man he was. He chose to do these substances and explore psychedelia with his new music and you can't put that on anyone else except him. Yes, it matters from whom he got the drugs. It was someone from/connected to an agency. Every hear of Ronan Farrow? The floodgates of abuse from agents or those connected to agents? It has nothing to do with infantilizing him.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 10:18:48 GMT -5
This is a not the whole career, but a particular window of time, and before Landy. Everything does not go into the kitchen sink. Artists often work all night. On Brian Wilson Songwriter - Fred Vail talks about how Brian would call him late at night to come over and listen to new tracks. There are inconsistencies in these Smile stories. Tapes burned because Jules said so? The "tapes burned" took on a life of its own. One that we listened to for nearly 20 years until Carl cleared that up. Carl is/was a primary source. (Van Dyke is/was a very versatile guy who had lots going on - with his resume besides BB involvement.) And under evidence standards, since this is about "evidence" - Carl's account comes before a secondary source such as an employee or press person. Against my better judgment, Im lifting my "ignore" and responding to you directly in this topic. 1) Nobody is talking about the whole career. My post was very clearly only about the SMiLE period. If you're talking about my comment about Brian's diminished ability to remember what happened 50 years ago today, I stand by it. Thats already hard for most people to do, and spending a decade of your life in between then and now on who knows what makes it all the more difficult. This should not be a controversial position. 2) Yes, artists can pull late nights. But there's a difference between Brian working late to mix a final cut of a song and Brian dragging his mostly unpaid friends into the studio to record some improvised skits which he hasn't provided direction for is something else. Clearly he hadn't given them advanced notice either based on their comments on tape, or the airport photo he also dragged everyone to late at night. You can't have it both ways, Filled. Were they essential employees of the band, following Brian's clear directives or were they useless hangers on leading him astray? Because if the former, you ought to respect their testimony more than you do, and if the latter then clearly Brian had no right to expect them to pull late nights with him, especially without notice or pay. 3) Yes, there were inconsistencies. That's a major point of my post. 4) No, Carl is not a primary source. He knew the Fire tapes weren't burned because he had access to the vaults. But he wasn't there for the Fall recording sessions. He wasn't there on Nov 4, the Lifeboat tape, or most of the events Vosse describes in his articles. Carl might have some insight in the Dec '66 and beyond period of SMiLE, but not before. He's debatably *a* primary source, but so are Vosse, Anderle, VDP and the others. 5) There's no reason to put Carl's word ahead of Vosse or anyone else's who witnessed part or all of the sessions firsthand. The only reason you choose to do so, and choose to twist the meaning of a primary source to suit your biases, is because Carl's a bandmember. This is exactly what I was talking about--people use the Vosse Posse as a convenient scapegoat just because they weren't in the band when such distinctions should be irrelevant in terms of weighing the evidence to determine what really happened. Vosse was there for more of the sessions than Carl, for example. EDIT: Unless you have a source of Vosse or Anderle providing Brian with drugs, you can kindly back off using that argument. As far as Im aware, he got acid from Daro (and as much as I dont like Daro, Brian would have gotten it from someone else anyway if he'd been refused.) Was Daro working for BRI or the band? Unless Im mistaken, no he wasn't. You're doing the other big thing I was warning against--treating all these guys as inseparable parts of the same person when really they're many different individuals. Comparing Brian Wilson to a kid trying to do ciagarettes or play with matches is infantilizing him. That's a pretty clear cut example. Just because you're a fan of him (as we all are) is no reason to wave away his personal responsibility for doing these substances. He was old enough to make up his own mind and just because he's led a hard life since that doesn't mean we get to blame the consequences of his decisions on everyone else. It might make for a convenient narrative but it's not accurate or fair to the other human beings you're defaming by pushing this excuse.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 10:56:52 GMT -5
Completely agree with the rest of your post(s) on this, but Carl was there for a lot of it. The tour didn't start til late October and before that Carl played on Cabin Essence, Child is Father of the Man and Wind Chimes earlier in the month, and he was there for vocals on all of those plus Our Prayer, I Ran, the early Vega-Tables and I think Do You Like Worms for the "rock rock roll" chorus (I'm pretty sure the lifeboat tape was later that night in the same studio). You're right though that the group were away when the Psychedelic Sounds stuff, Surf's Up, My Only Sunshine, vegetable arguments and Fire etc were happening. Fair enough, I was mistaken on what he was there for. But that still doesn't mean that he's the lone primary source and Vosse and Anderle are secondary sources. And it doesn't mean Carl's word should automatically be given priority over a non-band member. Being a Beach Boy doesn't magically preclude you from lying or having biases and misremembering things. I know you're not making that argument but I feel the need to emphasize that point again lest Filled use your reply as justification for her bias.
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 27, 2019 11:08:49 GMT -5
This is a not the whole career, but a particular window of time, and before Landy. Everything does not go into the kitchen sink. Artists often work all night. On Brian Wilson Songwriter - Fred Vail talks about how Brian would call him late at night to come over and listen to new tracks. There are inconsistencies in these Smile stories. Tapes burned because Jules said so? The "tapes burned" took on a life of its own. One that we listened to for nearly 20 years until Carl cleared that up. Carl is/was a primary source. (Van Dyke is/was a very versatile guy who had lots going on - with his resume besides BB involvement.) And under evidence standards, since this is about "evidence" - Carl's account comes before a secondary source such as an employee or press person. Against my better judgment, Im lifting my "ignore" and responding to you directly in this topic. 1) Nobody is talking about the whole career. My post was very clearly only about the SMiLE period. If you're talking about my comment about Brian's diminished ability to remember what happened 50 years ago today, I stand by it. Thats already hard for most people to do, and spending a decade of your life in between then and now on who knows what makes it all the more difficult. This should not be a controversial position. 2) Yes, artists can pull late nights. But there's a difference between Brian working late to mix a final cut of a song and Brian dragging his mostly unpaid friends into the studio to record some improvised skits which he hasn't provided direction for is something else. Clearly he hadn't given them advanced notice either based on their comments on tape, or the airport photo he also dragged everyone to late at night. You can't have it both ways, Filled. Were they essential employees of the band, following Brian's clear directives or were they useless hangers on leading him astray? Because if the former, you ought to respect their testimony more than you do, and if the latter then clearly Brian had no right to expect them to pull late nights with him, especially without notice or pay. 3) Yes, there were inconsistencies. That's a major point of my post. 4) No, Carl is not a primary source. He knew the Fire tapes weren't burned because he had access to the vaults. But he wasn't there for the Fall recording sessions. He wasn't there on Nov 4, the Lifeboat tape, or most of the events Vosse describes in his articles. Carl might have some insight in the Dec '66 and beyond period of SMiLE, but not before. He's debatably *a* primary source, but so are Vosse, Anderle, VDP and the others. 5) There's no reason to put Carl's word ahead of Vosse or anyone else's who witnessed part or all of the sessions firsthand. The only reason you choose to do so, and choose to twist the meaning of a primary source to suit your biases, is because Carl's a bandmember. This is exactly what I was talking about--people use the Vosse Posse as a convenient scapegoat just because they weren't in the band when such distinctions should be irrelevant in terms of weighing the evidence to determine what really happened. Vosse was there for more of the sessions than Carl, for example. EDIT: Unless you have a source of Vosse or Anderle providing Brian with drugs, you can kindly back off using that argument. As far as Im aware, he got acid from Daro (and as much as I dont like Daro, Brian would have gotten it from someone else anyway if he'd been refused.) Was Daro working for BRI or the band? Unless Im mistaken, no he wasn't. You're doing the other big thing I was warning against--treating all these guys as inseparable parts of the same person when really they're many different individuals. Comparing Brian Wilson to a kid trying to do ciagarettes or play with matches is infantilizing him. That's a pretty clear cut example. Just because you're a fan of him (as we all are) is no reason to wave away his personal responsibility for doing these substances. He was old enough to make up his own mind and just because he's led a hard life since that doesn't mean we get to blame the consequences of his decisions on everyone else. It might make for a convenient narrative but it's not accurate or fair to the other human beings you're defaming by pushing this excuse. You are blocked as well. Your post is all over the map-talking about Landy. No - I don't believe the narratives. It was a very complicated era, not to be over simplified. And, I bought all those teen magazines in real time and drank the propaganda Kool-Aid, in the 60's. From time to time, the band would announce randomly that Smile would be out - "soon." I heard that multiple times with my own ears. They had to know the tapes were not "burned." Those magazines were from the record companies - who knew that? They were not independent journalism with fact-checking in play. Daro admitted this (LSD) on the film and on the other forum. It matters where it came from. I am not asking him to waive personal responsibility. Tim Leary lost his job at Harvard for dispensing LSD to students. Leary had a duty not to cause potential harm to his students. It "matters" what your relationship is. If you are a dealer on a street corner - not so much - as being in front of a classroom or as an agent, ya, you are in a position of greater duty and responsibility to not cause potential harm. Now, I am looking through a legal lens for evidence, not someone's hearsay. Yes, legally, an agent (or representative) does not put the client in harm's way. And, the thread is Jules Siegel's reply to David Anderle in "Smile is Done." I mentioned Daro - with reference to the Sheriff's post.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 11:36:58 GMT -5
You are blocked as well. Your post is all over the map-talking about Landy. No - I don't believe the narratives. It was a very complicated era, not to be over simplified. And, I bought all those teen magazines in real time and drank the propaganda Kool-Aid, in the 60's. From time to time, the band would announce randomly that Smile would be out - "soon." I heard that multiple times with my own ears. They had to know the tapes were not "burned." Those magazines were from the record companies - who knew that? They were not independent journalism with fact-checking in play. Daro admitted this (LSD) on the film and on the other forum. It matters where it came from. I am not asking him to waive personal responsibility. Tim Leary lost his job at Harvard for dispensing LSD to students. Leary had a duty not to cause potential harm to his students. It "matters" what your relationship is. If you are a dealer on a street corner - not so much - as being in front of a classroom or as an agent, ya, you are in a position of greater duty and responsibility to not cause potential harm. Now, I am looking through a legal lens for evidence, not someone's hearsay. Yes, legally, an agent (or representative) does not put the client in harm's way. If Im blocked, why would you respond to my texts in the first place, both here and in other threads which I've elected to ignore? But I digress. In regards to the bolded section: let's let everyone else weigh in. I think it was pretty clear why I brought up the Landy years in terms of explaining why we need to take Brian's more recent words on the subject with a grain of salt. I'm willing to bet you're the only one here who is too dense to understand something like that. In your second and third paragraphs, you are arguing points which I either never disputed or are completely irrelevant to anything I said. Are you raising these points to suggest the Vosse fusion article and Anderle Crawdaddy article are propoganda from the record company? Well, tell me then, why would the record company be pushing these articles for an album that had been shelved 2 years earlier? Are you using these arguments to dismiss the credibility of the "Goodbye Surfing, Hello God" article--and by extension Jules Siegal? Well then surely if Siegal's not a credible source, you'd agree with me that his attacks on Anderle (which are the topic of this thread) are false, yes? If not then what exactly are you trying to say? I've been arguing that lumping the Vosse Posse members together as one entity and blaming them wholesale for everything bad that happened is academically dishonest. But you--Im not sure what your central thesis is. It just seems like you want to argue for the sake of it--you want to pin everything on those big bad Posse members even if your "evidence" contradicts itself, or veers into irrelevant anecdotes along the way. Hey Filled, maybe next time double check what's in dispute. Nobody says Daro didn't give Brian the acid. The point is Brian approached Daro to get it, and I happen to agree with Daro himself that if he had refused Brian then Brian would have gotten it some other way. Don't tell me that a millionaire music star didn't have other avenues for getting LSD in California at the height of the counterculture. You're ignoring the question I raised, either deliberately or not--was Daro an employee of Brian Wilson?? Admittedly I could be wrong, but Ive never seen anything to suggest he was. You'd think Daro himself would have played it up on SS if he were. Seems to me they were just friends/drug hookups. You're ignoring my point of contention to argue against a point I never raised. Leary is completely irrelevant to this conversation. Brian and Daro were not a student-teacher, or subordinate-boss relationship with Daro as the superior partner. Unless someone shows me different, as far as I can tell they were friends as in an equal partnership. Are you confusing Vosse with Daro? Even if it had been Vosse in that position who provided the drugs, then Brian as his boss would have been the dominate partner in that relationship, which means Brian would have been the one abusing his authority to coerce an employee to do something morally questionable. Sorry Filled, but any way you slice it, Brian is responsible for doing LSD. I know you want to be the #1 Beach Boys fan of all time absolving them of all fault when you're not talking down to people for how they review an album, but your argument just doesn't hold water. Anyway, that's enough time spent on this argument. You can go back to blocking me now and believe me I'll be happy to do the same to you.
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 27, 2019 12:05:04 GMT -5
You are blocked as well. Your post is all over the map-talking about Landy. No - I don't believe the narratives. It was a very complicated era, not to be over simplified. And, I bought all those teen magazines in real time and drank the propaganda Kool-Aid, in the 60's. From time to time, the band would announce randomly that Smile would be out - "soon." I heard that multiple times with my own ears. They had to know the tapes were not "burned." Those magazines were from the record companies - who knew that? They were not independent journalism with fact-checking in play. Daro admitted this (LSD) on the film and on the other forum. It matters where it came from. I am not asking him to waive personal responsibility. Tim Leary lost his job at Harvard for dispensing LSD to students. Leary had a duty not to cause potential harm to his students. It "matters" what your relationship is. If you are a dealer on a street corner - not so much - as being in front of a classroom or as an agent, ya, you are in a position of greater duty and responsibility to not cause potential harm. Now, I am looking through a legal lens for evidence, not someone's hearsay. Yes, legally, an agent (or representative) does not put the client in harm's way. If Im blocked, why would you respond to my texts in the first place, both here and in other threads which I've elected to ignore? But I digress. In regards to the bolded section: let's let everyone else weigh in. I think it was pretty clear why I brought up the Landy years in terms of explaining why we need to take Brian's more recent words on the subject with a grain of salt. I'm willing to bet you're the only one here who is too dense to understand something like that. In your second and third paragraphs, you are arguing points which I either never disputed or are completely irrelevant to anything I said. Are you raising these points to suggest the Vosse fusion article and Anderle Crawdaddy article are propoganda from the record company? Well, tell me then, why would the record company be pushing these articles for an album that had been shelved 2 years earlier? Are you using these arguments to dismiss the credibility of the "Goodbye Surfing, Hello God" article--and by extension Jules Siegal? Well then surely if Siegal's not a credible source, you'd agree with me that his attacks on Anderle (which are the topic of this thread) are false, yes? If not then what exactly are you trying to say? I've been arguing that lumping the Vosse Posse members together as one entity and blaming them wholesale for everything bad that happened is academically dishonest. But you--Im not sure what your central thesis is. It just seems like you want to argue for the sake of it--you want to pin everything on those big bad Posse members even if your "evidence" contradicts itself, or veers into irrelevant anecdotes along the way. Hey Filled, maybe next time double check what's in dispute. Nobody says Daro didn't give Brian the acid. The point is Brian approached Daro to get it, and I happen to agree with Daro himself that if he had refused Brian then Brian would have gotten it some other way. Don't tell me that a millionaire music star didn't have other avenues for getting LSD in California at the height of the counterculture. You're ignoring the question I raised, either deliberately or not--was Daro an employee of Brian Wilson?? Admittedly I could be wrong, but Ive never seen anything to suggest he was. You'd think Daro himself would have played it up on SS if he were. Seems to me they were just friends/drug hookups. You're ignoring my point of contention to argue against a point I never raised. Leary is completely irrelevant to this conversation. Brian and Daro were not a student-teacher, or subordinate-boss relationship with Daro as the superior partner. Unless someone shows me different, as far as I can tell they were friends as in an equal partnership. Are you confusing Vosse with Daro? Even if it had been Vosse in that position who provided the drugs, then Brian as his boss would have been the dominate partner in that relationship, which means Brian would have been the one abusing his authority to coerce an employee to do something morally questionable. Sorry Filled, but any way you slice it, Brian is responsible for doing LSD. I know you want to be the #1 Beach Boys fan of all time absolving them of all fault when you're not talking down to people for how they review an album, but your argument just doesn't hold water. Anyway, that's enough time spent on this argument. You can go back to blocking me now and believe me I'll be happy to do the same to you. You should know that posts within posts are visible. Kidding aside, you are ignoring the legal responsibilities of teacher's/professors and others in official or quasi-official capacities. That is my lens. Those responsibilities are generally non-waivable, no matter how convincing someone can be, looking for matches or cigarettes or drugs. That's the analogy for me. Yes, he could have gotten LSD elsewhere, but the admissions by Daro tell us otherwise. You can easily research Daro's role. At no point did I mention Vosse. Where did that come from? And, p.s. My kids already told me I am the #1 fan.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 12:22:27 GMT -5
At this point, I just have to ask...does anyone else see this? Is it just me? Does the fact that Filled consistently argues in bad faith, uses disingenuous arguments, doesn't acknowledge what the other person is saying bother anyone else? Do you all just collectively ignore it or what? Would this behavior be tolerated by anyone else if they were not an old regular?
I mean, at the end of the day there's the ignore feature but it's weird to me that nobody else ever acknowledges Filled's incomprehensible positions and condescension towards younger fans. This is far from the worst example of it, admittedly, but for me it's more than enough to wonder why it's acceptable. I've seen other posters--Beach Boys Fan for example--publicly given grief for a lot less.
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Post by AGD on Jan 27, 2019 12:29:27 GMT -5
And, I will never buy that narrative that the band chucked the project after all the hours in the studio and given that it was to be their first major release on Brother. No idea where you got that notion from - Smile was always going to be on Capitol.
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Post by filledeplage on Jan 27, 2019 12:30:54 GMT -5
And, I will never buy that narrative that the band chucked the project after all the hours in the studio and given that it was to be their first major release on Brother. No idea where you got that notion from - Smile was always going to be on Capitol. With the Brother logo? Or, without? There were singles already out with the Brother logo.
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Post by Mikie on Jan 27, 2019 12:52:43 GMT -5
No idea where you got that notion from - Smile was always going to be on Capitol. With the Brother logo? Or, without? There were singles already out with the Brother logo. The singles with the Brother logo weren't released until July and August of 1967. The Smiley Smile album on Brother came out in September. "Smile", which was slated for release in January 1967 on Capitol (black label), was well over with before the singles and album came out on the Brother label in 1967. In fact, there was a plan to release the Wild Honey album as Brother 9002, but it came out on Capitol instead. The Capitol Record Club also released "Smiley Smile" on the black Capitol rainbow label. Records with the Brother lablel were still distributed by Capitol.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Jan 27, 2019 12:58:42 GMT -5
At this point, I just have to ask...does anyone else see this? Is it just me? Does the fact that Filled consistently argues in bad faith, uses disingenuous arguments, doesn't acknowledge what the other person is saying bother anyone else? Do you all just collectively ignore it or what? Would this behavior be tolerated by anyone else if they were not an old regular? I mean, at the end of the day there's the ignore feature but it's weird to me that nobody else ever acknowledges Filled's incomprehensible positions and condescension towards younger fans. This is far from the worst example of it, admittedly, but for me it's more than enough to wonder why it's acceptable. I've seen other posters--Beach Boys Fan for example--publicly given grief for a lot less. Look, I can understand you feeling the way you do, but nowhere where I have read has fille acted that way with every young person in this place. You have strong opinions. There are going to be folks who don’t agree and will vigorously argue the other side. You have to expect this type of thing. This is why this place exists to discuss these types of things. No one has been nasty, there has been no name calling, there is no foul. To you and fille, please leave it and move on. Thank you.
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