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Post by filledeplage on Sept 17, 2023 15:49:45 GMT -5
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Post by AGD on Sept 17, 2023 16:44:40 GMT -5
Good, albeit some four decades too late.
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petsite
Author/Historian/ Researcher
Posts: 1,977
Likes: 3,247
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Post by petsite on Sept 17, 2023 20:34:24 GMT -5
I was texting with a friend yesterday when my headline alert went off. I texted him the headline and added DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD.
This man is the worst kind of journalist you can imagine. He is so self-absorbed and assured that HIS opinions are the only ones worth pursuing. The fact that each Beatle singularly is in the Hall Of Fame as well as a group says it all. Brian was not socially relevent enough, but we know Ringo was. And THAT is not a knock against Ringo. My point is Jann would have voted Mal Evans before Brian.
Jann also promised John Lennon after a lengthy interview for Rolling Stone that he would NOT publish a book of their entire interview, which of course he did.
Such an asshole.
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Post by jay on Sept 17, 2023 21:25:15 GMT -5
About damn time.
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Post by Emdeeh on Sept 17, 2023 23:12:39 GMT -5
Now, can we please induct Jethro Tull?
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Post by AGD on Sept 18, 2023 0:19:41 GMT -5
Now, can we please induct Jethro Tull? ...and Jan & Dean?
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petsite
Author/Historian/ Researcher
Posts: 1,977
Likes: 3,247
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Post by petsite on Sept 18, 2023 1:30:32 GMT -5
Now, can we please induct Jethro Tull? ...and Jan & Dean? Way way way pass time for them.
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Post by jay on Sept 18, 2023 2:17:44 GMT -5
Now, can we please induct Jethro Tull? ...and Jan & Dean? Jan & Dean, The Monkees, Three Dog Night, Steppenwolf, Brian as a solo artist, CSNY, Manassas, ect....
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Post by E on Sept 18, 2023 3:48:29 GMT -5
It's About Time.
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Post by AGD on Sept 18, 2023 4:30:04 GMT -5
Way way way pass time for them. The only reason they've not even been nominated yet has the initials JW.
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Post by gigantiskpyjamas on Sept 18, 2023 9:05:36 GMT -5
Apologies if I sound negative, but does anyone really care about the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame?
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Post by boogieboarder on Sept 18, 2023 9:07:39 GMT -5
Jann Wenner was removed because of his comments about blacks and women, but I don’t see anybody suggesting nominating more blacks and women here. Just more white males like The Monkees, Brian Wilson, and Jan and Dean, Jethro Tull, CSNY, etc.
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Post by bessieboporbach on Sept 18, 2023 11:21:27 GMT -5
Jann Wenner was removed because of his comments about blacks and women, but I don’t see anybody suggesting nominating more blacks and women here. Just more white males like The Monkees, Brian Wilson, and Jan and Dean, Jethro Tull, CSNY, etc. My sense of the Hall of Fame situation may be an unpopular opinion, but here it is anyway: they were actually laying the groundwork for a valuable curatorial institution in the early days by inducting artists like Chuck Berry, Fats Domino, Little Richard, the Beach Boys, Beatles, etc. -- artists whose influence was so fundamental and decisive on the historical trajectory of rock and roll that no-one could conceivably question their inclusion. Where they ran into trouble was when they realized that they needed continuing publicity to suvive as an institution, so they came up with the idea of inducting more artists more or less every single year. This had the effect of turning the whole enterprise into a game of Baby Boomer fantasy football. A lot of people, especially older guys, seem OK with their favorite authors not being represented in the Norton Anthology of English Literature or their favorite movie not being represented in the Sight & Sound poll or AFI list, but they seem to lack that level of self-awareness when it comes to their favorite band. Engaging with that fantasy football game was the beginning of the end of the Hall's credibility as the kind of cultural institution Wenner and Landau envisioned. The fact that Wenner himself turned out to be a stupid old racist/sexist fossil in his 70s is less of a story to me than the way his lust for publicity led to the whole enterprise's obsolescence.
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Post by filledeplage on Sept 18, 2023 11:34:09 GMT -5
Jann Wenner was removed because of his comments about blacks and women, but I don’t see anybody suggesting nominating more blacks and women here. Just more white males like The Monkees, Brian Wilson, and Jan and Dean, Jethro Tull, CSNY, etc. My sense of the Hall of Fame situation may be an unpopular opinion, but here it is anyway: they were actually laying the groundwork for a valuable curatorial institution in the early days by inducting artists like Chuck Berry, Fats Domino, Little Richard, the Beach Boys, Beatles, etc. -- artists whose influence was so fundamental and decisive on the historical trajectory of rock and roll that no-one could conceivably question their inclusion. Where they ran into trouble was when they realized that they needed continuing publicity to suvive as an institution, so they came up with the idea of inducting more artists more or less every single year. This had the effect of turning the whole enterprise into a game of Baby Boomer fantasy football. A lot of people, especially older guys, seem OK with their favorite authors not being represented in the Norton Anthology of English Literature or their favorite movie not being represented in the Sight & Sound poll or AFI list, but they seem to lack that level of self-awareness when it comes to their favorite band. Engaging with that fantasy football game was the beginning of the end of the Hall's credibility as the kind of cultural institution Wenner and Landau envisioned. The fact that Wenner himself turned out to be a stupid old racist/sexist fossil in his 70s is less of a story to me than the way his lust for publicity led to the whole enterprise's obsolescence. Isn't there a minimum threshold of 25 years to be established to be inducted? That would necessarily impede and exclude those with fewer industry years. It is a rock and roll HOF, and self-established so if it is yours, you get to pick. Not an R n B or Disco HOF, even if there are crossovers in every domain because that would limit artists' creativity to venture into other areas of music. But, I agree that just like the Oscars, there is an underlying problem, which was more than a race/sex thing. But this was the reason he was sacked. Wenner played games to skew the results and success of other artists. Paul McCartney is a big example of being blackballed. If you call it a HOF you need to represent and actually structure the award process so that it is not only neutral, but fair and neutral across-the-board, especially because you are the only game in town. "Baby Boomer" used to be a term-of-endearment, honoring the children of those who fought WWII, and now it is a pejorative.
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Post by bessieboporbach on Sept 18, 2023 11:46:54 GMT -5
My sense of the Hall of Fame situation may be an unpopular opinion, but here it is anyway: they were actually laying the groundwork for a valuable curatorial institution in the early days by inducting artists like Chuck Berry, Fats Domino, Little Richard, the Beach Boys, Beatles, etc. -- artists whose influence was so fundamental and decisive on the historical trajectory of rock and roll that no-one could conceivably question their inclusion. Where they ran into trouble was when they realized that they needed continuing publicity to suvive as an institution, so they came up with the idea of inducting more artists more or less every single year. This had the effect of turning the whole enterprise into a game of Baby Boomer fantasy football. A lot of people, especially older guys, seem OK with their favorite authors not being represented in the Norton Anthology of English Literature or their favorite movie not being represented in the Sight & Sound poll or AFI list, but they seem to lack that level of self-awareness when it comes to their favorite band. Engaging with that fantasy football game was the beginning of the end of the Hall's credibility as the kind of cultural institution Wenner and Landau envisioned. The fact that Wenner himself turned out to be a stupid old racist/sexist fossil in his 70s is less of a story to me than the way his lust for publicity led to the whole enterprise's obsolescence. Isn't there a minimum threshold of 25 years to be established to be inducted? That would necessarily impede and exclude those with fewer industry years. It is a rock and roll HOF, and self-established so if it is yours, you get to pick. Not an R n B or Disco HOF, even if there are crossovers in every domain because that would limit artists' creativity to venture into other areas of music. But, I agree that just like the Oscars, there is an underlying problem, which was more than a race/sex thing. But this was the reason he was sacked. Wenner played games to skew the results and success of other artists. Paul McCartney is a big example of being blackballed. If you call it a HOF you need to represent and actually structure the award process so that it is not only neutral, but fair and neutral across-the-board, especially because you are the only game in town. "Baby Boomer" used to be a term-of-endearment, honoring the children of those who fought WWII, and now it is a pejorative. I know I'll regret engaging with this, but how can you possibly say that "Paul McCartney is a big example of being blackballed," when he has been inducted into the Hall twice? Is the measure of the institution's validity now "it has to induct my favorite singer 3 times"?
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Post by filledeplage on Sept 18, 2023 11:49:14 GMT -5
Isn't there a minimum threshold of 25 years to be established to be inducted? That would necessarily impede and exclude those with fewer industry years. It is a rock and roll HOF, and self-established so if it is yours, you get to pick. Not an R n B or Disco HOF, even if there are crossovers in every domain because that would limit artists' creativity to venture into other areas of music. But, I agree that just like the Oscars, there is an underlying problem, which was more than a race/sex thing. But this was the reason he was sacked. Wenner played games to skew the results and success of other artists. Paul McCartney is a big example of being blackballed. If you call it a HOF you need to represent and actually structure the award process so that it is not only neutral, but fair and neutral across-the-board, especially because you are the only game in town. "Baby Boomer" used to be a term-of-endearment, honoring the children of those who fought WWII, and now it is a pejorative. I know I'll regret engaging with this, but how can you possibly say that "Paul McCartney is a big example of being blackballed," when he has been inducted into the Hall twice? Is the measure of the institution's validity now "it has to induct my favorite singer 3 times"? That was not the background, or whether he eventually got the award. It was what transpired, post-Beatles breakup. Just a thumbnail of how he took sides with the breakup of the band. www.reddit.com/r/PaulMcCartney/comments/lpktvr/the_rollingstone_review_was_a_ridiculous/?rdt-62076
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Post by boogieboarder on Sept 18, 2023 12:08:42 GMT -5
By any measure whatsoever, I don’t understand why The Association is not in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
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Post by Emdeeh on Sept 18, 2023 15:01:22 GMT -5
By any measure whatsoever, I don’t understand why The Association is not in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Me neither. And I still don't feel it's fair to induct any artists as solos who were originally inducted as part of the act that made them famous, as long as there is a big backlog of overlooked worthies. And then there's the matter of four Beach Boys principals not even being inducted as part of their group!
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Post by lonelysummer on Sept 18, 2023 15:17:45 GMT -5
I don't see any reason to induct Brian Wilson as a solo artist. His solo career has consisted mostly of touring, playing the songs he wrote and performed with the Beach Boys. The Beach Boys are already in. By far the most popular Brian Wilson solo album is BWPS - a reconstruction of a project he started with the Beach Boys. Ringo Starr had a string of top 40 hits from 1971-76; I'm not sure that alone is enough to merit inclusion in the HOF. Honestly, I don't think it was necessary to induct the individual Beatles as solo artists. Yes, George should be recognized for the Concert for Bangladesh. You can represent that in the museum without inducting him as a solo artist. I guess we have to have John as a solo artist because he was Wenner's favorite Beatle, but most fans (i'm not including myself here) think he only did two great albums, John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band and Imagine. And I guess we have to induct Paul, because he's still around, but the critics sure hated most of his post-Beatles music back in the day, and his biggest success by far was as the leader of Wings, so why not induct the band into the HOF? I think the HOF got started off the right way back in the 80's, honoring the pioneers of rock and pop music. I don't think anyone would argue AGAINST the inductions of the Everly Brothers, Chuck Berry, Elvis Presley, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Fats Domino. I do remember James Brown saying "i'm not a rock and roll singer, but I am honored to be here", or words to that effect. Is Ray Charles rock and roll? I've heard Ray sing jazz, pop, country, blues, pretty much everything except rock and roll, but he was a pioneer, and rhythm and blues is a very, very close cousin of rock and roll, so I think he should be there. So they inducted artists who were the foundation on which rock was built. Then they lost the plot somewhere along the way.
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Post by filledeplage on Sept 18, 2023 16:51:33 GMT -5
I don't see any reason to induct Brian Wilson as a solo artist. His solo career has consisted mostly of touring, playing the songs he wrote and performed with the Beach Boys. The Beach Boys are already in. By far the most popular Brian Wilson solo album is BWPS - a reconstruction of a project he started with the Beach Boys. Ringo Starr had a string of top 40 hits from 1971-76; I'm not sure that alone is enough to merit inclusion in the HOF. Honestly, I don't think it was necessary to induct the individual Beatles as solo artists. Yes, George should be recognized for the Concert for Bangladesh. You can represent that in the museum without inducting him as a solo artist. I guess we have to have John as a solo artist because he was Wenner's favorite Beatle, but most fans (i'm not including myself here) think he only did two great albums, John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band and Imagine. And I guess we have to induct Paul, because he's still around, but the critics sure hated most of his post-Beatles music back in the day, and his biggest success by far was as the leader of Wings, so why not induct the band into the HOF? I think the HOF got started off the right way back in the 80's, honoring the pioneers of rock and pop music. I don't think anyone would argue AGAINST the inductions of the Everly Brothers, Chuck Berry, Elvis Presley, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Fats Domino. I do remember James Brown saying "i'm not a rock and roll singer, but I am honored to be here", or words to that effect. Is Ray Charles rock and roll? I've heard Ray sing jazz, pop, country, blues, pretty much everything except rock and roll, but he was a pioneer, and rhythm and blues is a very, very close cousin of rock and roll, so I think he should be there. So they inducted artists who were the foundation on which rock was built. Then they lost the plot somewhere along the way. All great points. I think what gets to people (it got to me when I learned how McCartney was treated) because he had picked a side. When you are in journalism or judging winners like a referee, you are supposed to be neutral. At least appear that way. But learning that he had his thumb-on-the-scale for the better part of 50 years is more galling. It is not surprising how many who were so worthy if the people/fans were judging who belonged in the HOF. How many artists/musicians died, broken hearted, feeling unworthy, and un-included, because they thought it was on-the-level? Now, he is only sorry he got caught. Better late than never.
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Post by AGD on Sept 18, 2023 17:03:17 GMT -5
Isn't there a minimum threshold of 25 years to be established to be inducted? Yup: artists become eligible for induction 25 years after the release of their first record. Thus Brian became eligible in 2011... or possibly 1991.
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ryankc
Dude/Dudette
Posts: 97
Likes: 175
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Post by ryankc on Sept 18, 2023 17:34:38 GMT -5
Wenner has always sucked. The Rock Hall should be renamed the Music Hall of Fame, but anyway, the entire thing is subjective anyway and really means nothing. It's cool to see the artifacts and instruments that they have there, but I agree with Johnny Rotten on the Hall. Probably one of the only things we agree on.
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Post by ian on Sept 18, 2023 17:53:51 GMT -5
I think the problem with the HOF is that music is subjective. A HOF for sports like baseball and football makes total sense because athletes are judged based on statistics. Obviously you could have a hall based off of billboard/cash box chart placement or record sales but many artists that are greatly admired were not commercial superstars and that would leave them out. So we are left with a system where industry honchos nominate people and they are then voted on by 500 experts.Hence it depends on who is on the nominating committee. As time goes by, chances are the nominating committee will skew younger, making it less likely that classic rock artist that were snubbed the first time around will get in later. Also-the hall long ago began to blur the lines of what is rock. I think it would be more accurate to call it a Hall of rock, Pop, R&B, soul, Disco, easy listening and Hip hop.
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Post by jiggy22 on Sept 18, 2023 22:46:32 GMT -5
Jann Wenner on Smiley Smile (released 56 years ago today!) "'Heroes and Villains,' one of their latest releases, is also on the new album. But for some reason, it just doesn't make it. The same is true for the rest of the songs, they just don't move you. Other than displaying Brian Wilson's virtuosity for productions, they are pointless."
His removal couldn't have happened to a more deserving man.
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Post by jay on Sept 18, 2023 22:51:44 GMT -5
I think it would be hilarious if the next induction ceremony consisted of nothing but artists that were vetoed by Jan Wenner.
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