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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 12:19:24 GMT -5
[S'more "greatest hits" from PSF]
Simple question. Discuss.
I think they should've, though I expect that to be an unpopular opinion. Let me just say upfront that normally I consider an album to be a work of art, and editing one (even just as a fan) is akin to messing with a director's intended cut of a film, or painting over an artist's canvas. HOWEVER, I think Sgt Pepper is one of the rare exceptions to this rule. Why? Because an album about childhood was the goal of the band before the release of the SFF/PL single forced them to abandon the concept. And in the years since, George Martin has called leaving these two tracks off the album as a monumental error. In these circumstances, I don't think it's disrespectful to wonder "what if."
If you've been on the forums from SS and PSF, you know I'm not shy about criticizing Sgt Pepper, which I consider to be a very good but very overrated album. Despite its reputation, Pepper is very uneven in my opinion, with some tracks that I think would have been better served as B-sides or on the cutting room floor. Within You, Without You...Good Morning...64... I think two of these tracks could easily have been subbed out for Penny Lane and Strawberry to great success. It would have made an already great album 100x greater in my opinion. Of course, there's the chance that had this happened, the album would have been about childhood entirely, and thus totally different.
Later on in the original PSF thread, someone asked me what exactly my tracklist would be if SFF/PL were included and I offered the following:
1. Sgt Pepper 2. A Little Help From My Friends 3. She's Leaving Home 4. Fixing a Hole 5. Getting Better 6. Lovely Rita
7. Strawberry Fields Forever 8. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds 9. Being For the Benefit of Mr. Kite 10. When I'm 64 11. Penny Lane -------------------------You can throw Good Morning in here if you really want. I go back and forth on it myself. 12. Reprise 13. A Day in the Life
^This way, the first side is about overcoming a loss with your friends and eventually meeting a new woman. Then the second side is reminiscing about the past (even Lucy fits if you interpret it as a child's drawing/dreamscape) and looking towards the future of adulthood.
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Post by kds on Jan 12, 2019 12:53:45 GMT -5
No doubt those two songs would make any album better, and I like the idea of Strawberry Fields on the same album as Day in the Life, I think I prefer them on the MMT LP. That way, you have two great Beatles albums instead of one great one and one good one.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 13:15:07 GMT -5
I'm with kds on this one. There are some things about MMT that I prefer over Pepper (even if the former is technically a comp.), but overall you've got two fine albums, and I like that balance.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 13:25:23 GMT -5
A few random thoughts... MMT was originally an EP in the UK, which doesn't leave much room for anything. And that suits me fine. As for the OP's question... I rather like the idea of an album that doesn't contain one single, let alone a double-sided one. (To say nothing of my "what is, is" attitude.) It's definitely food for thought though, as always with the OP. However, one of the most magical transitions I know is that between "When I'm 64" and "Lovely Rita"--I would not like to lose that. And "GM, GM" is my third favourite song on the album after "Getting Better" and "Rita", which freaks out very nicely at the end. End of thoughts...
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B.E.
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Post by B.E. on Jan 12, 2019 14:38:25 GMT -5
I think they should've, though I expect that to be an unpopular opinion. Not a terribly unpopular one, I suspect. I think a lot of fans acknowledge that SFF and PL could have improved Sgt Pepper and, similarly, shortening The Beatles from two LPs to one could have improved The Beatles. The fact that George Martin has weighed in on both has certainly spurred fan discussion. Personally, I'm split on these topics. I fully acknowledge that Sgt Pepper would have been improved by substituting SFF and PL for 2 lesser songs, but I actually think that The Beatles is better as a double LP. Now, do I think that SFF and PL should have been included on Sgt Pepper? No. I'm a huge proponent of non-album singles. I love the way The Beatles discography was managed in the UK and I think it would be a really fun exercise to apply a similar standard to The Beach Boys discography of the early-mid 60s. 2 LPs and 2-3 non-album singles per year - an EP of new material where applicable. Nice and neat and the fans get the most value. Imagine those early Beach Boys albums without some of the hits? I bet Brian puts a little more effort in the "filler" tracks to flesh them out and raise the quality of the album. Though, remember, Capitol released 3 BBs studio albums per year (even more Beatles albums in the mid 60s). Anyway, I feel like I'm getting off track. Ultimately, I agree with kds and sockit, that MMT benefits more from the inclusion of SFF and PL than Sgt Pepper and even if MMT remained an EP (as jk suggested), I'd be fine with that outcome as well. Still, it's very interesting for us to reimagine these albums and try to make them the best albums possible, because that's how we think of albums now. As complete works of art, as opposed to collections of songs. Which, of course, Sgt Pepper had ambitions of being. Later on in the original PSF thread, someone asked me what exactly my tracklist would be if SFF/PL were included and I offered the following:1. Sgt Pepper 2. A Little Help From My Friends 3. She's Leaving Home 4. Fixing a Hole 5. Getting Better 6. Lovely Rita 7. Strawberry Fields Forever 8. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds 9. Being For the Benefit of Mr. Kite 10. When I'm 64 11. Penny Lane -------------------------You can throw Good Morning in here if you really want. I go back and forth on it myself. 12. Reprise 13. A Day in the Life ^This way, the first side is about overcoming a loss with your friends and eventually meeting a new woman. Then the second side is reminiscing about the past (even Lucy fits if you interpret it as a child's drawing/dreamscape) and looking towards the future of adulthood. I haven't listened to this sequence, so it could work perfectly, but I'm a little concerned about Side 1 closing with four consecutive Paul leads and Side 2 opening with three consecutive John leads. There's also no George songs, obviously. With that said, I'm glad you didn't reach for "Only A Northern Song" or "It's All Too Much". I've never felt that they were good enough for Pepper, and even if you think they are, I don't think they'd fit. The approach taken for those songs was a much messier, sloppier approach. As such, a bit of an oddity in all of the Beatles canon and thus relegated to the YS soundtrack. Even on MMT the approach is much cleaner, much more exact. This kind of reminds me of what Emerick said about "Good Morning Good Morning": John said to me during one of the breaks that he wanted to have the sound of animals escaping and that each successive animal should be capable of frightening or devouring its predecessor! So those are not just random effects, there was actually a lot of thought put into all that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 15:22:59 GMT -5
Well, technically they WOULD'VE been the first two songs recorded for Sgt. Pepper. The title or concept for the album didn't exist yet but those sessions would've been considered in the Sgt. Pepper recording time frame.
Paul McCartney has gone on record as saying that he preferred the "Penny Lane"/"Strawberry Fields Forever" single over its inclusion on the album.
I wish the two songs WOULD'VE BEEN INCLUDED on Sgt. Pepper. I'm usually one who believes in making the album as strong as possible. Look at how it cost The Beach Boys with some of the songs they omitted from their albums (in addition to the silly filler). Almost all of their albums woulda/coulda/shoulda been better if they just included the right songs. That is also true to some extent with The Beatles because of their philosophy to release non-album singles.
I agree with iluvleniloud that Sgt. Pepper is a very good but very overrated album, and "uneven" is a fitting description. And - surprise, surprise - I have been listening to my own alternate Sgt Pepper album for a few years now. While I know it had zero chance of ever happening, I deleted "Within You, Without You" which is George's only contribution, I deleted Paul's "When I'm 64", I added "Penny Lane" and "Strawberry Fields Forever", and I totally resequenced it:
The Beatles - Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band
Side 1 01 Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band 02 With A Little Help From My Friends 03 Being For The Benefit Of Mr. Kite 04 Fixing A Hole 05 Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds 06 Getting Better 07 She's Leaving Home
Side 2 08 Penny Lane 09 Strawberry Fields Forever 10 Lovely Rita 11 Good Morning Good Morning 12 Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (Reprise) 13 A Day In The Life
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 15:25:48 GMT -5
Paul McCartney has gone on record as saying that he preferred the "Penny Lane"/"Strawberry Fields Forever" single over its inclusion on the album.
Is that so?? That man has just rocketed in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 15:29:49 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 15:43:52 GMT -5
Wow--thanks a lot, Sheriff. There are three "rock stars" that have persistently got up my nose over the years: Jagger, Waters and Macca. I remember when Paul was on TV with the fantastic rock'n'roll band who backed him at The Cavern a while back, he couldn't be arsed to introduce them and just talked about himself. This does a lot to exonerate him.
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jh055
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Post by jh055 on Jan 13, 2019 8:30:55 GMT -5
I believe the thinking by the record companies back then was, to keep a steady flow of new product out there, as they believed all pop acts (yes, even The Beatles) were short-lived phenomenons and any lengthy break would cause the public to forget them. So with SFF and PL being the first completed songs, (I think) and the rest of the album months and months away, the decision was made. Also, The Beatles own philosophy was to not include singles on subsequent albums as this would “rip off” their fans making them buy the same music twice.
I think The Little Girl I once knew being released ahead of Pet Sounds might fall into this same thinking.
In retrospect, Pepper and Pet Sounds May have done a lot to change the perception of albums to complete works of “art” and not just a collection of singles.
my three cents..
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Post by The Cap'n on Jan 13, 2019 16:49:28 GMT -5
Yes, because they're great, great songs and would only have improved what is already a great, great album. I'm not especially worried about an album's identity as a coherent work of art (though it absolutely can be, even if it rarely is and doesn't have to be). They fit stylistically. They're great. Plug 'em in.
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