sloopjohnb
Historian / Researcher
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Post by sloopjohnb on May 21, 2022 12:43:31 GMT -5
Yep, the Beach Boys did not record Working in a Coal Mine.
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Post by AGD on May 22, 2022 0:38:13 GMT -5
See, this thread - and indeed this board - is what I love about Beach Boys research, scholarship, what you will in the 21st century: information freely exchanged with no side or agenda by people who actually know what they're talking about (disclaimer: not me, mostly), concisely with no waffle. Means I have to adjust 10452 now and then, but I have no problem with that if it ups the accuracy quotient. Thanks, one and all.
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Post by EST583JRX on May 22, 2022 10:36:12 GMT -5
Love how sometimes you'll see ordinary fans claim that something was "never recorded" and you're just supposed to trust them at their word without any sources.
Is it that inconceivable to suggest that some tapes may just have been undocumented, lost, and forgotten? The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
I seem to remember fans 30 years ago insisting that "My Only Sunshine" and "Barnyard" were the same song, and that "I'm in Great Shape" was never recorded. Have we learned nothing?
Imagine if we had a clipping from '71 where Carl said to a journalist, "Me and Brian recorded a version of 'Surf's Up' back in '67 on the Wild Honey piano. It sounded great!" Now imagine it's 40 years later. We have no documentation for this tape and no one can remember a version of Surf's Up played on that piano. With the current school of logic, fans would be stating emphatically that Carl was either lying or mistaken. (That is, of course, until the release of a box set called The Smile Sessions, when suddenly...!)
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Post by Mikie on May 22, 2022 10:49:30 GMT -5
Love how sometimes you'll see ordinary fans claim that something was "never recorded" and you're just supposed to trust them at their word without any sources. Is it that inconceivable to suggest that some tapes may just have been undocumented, lost, and forgotten? The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. This is true. You bring up a good point. Maybe we should interrogate them and ask for their source(s)? I mean, we did give three of these guys Historian/Researcher status recently.....
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sloopjohnb
Historian / Researcher
Posts: 252
Likes: 401
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Post by sloopjohnb on May 22, 2022 12:27:16 GMT -5
Love how sometimes you'll see ordinary fans claim that something was "never recorded" and you're just supposed to trust them at their word without any sources. Is it that inconceivable to suggest that some tapes may just have been undocumented, lost, and forgotten? The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. I seem to remember fans 30 years ago insisting that "My Only Sunshine" and "Barnyard" were the same song, and that "I'm in Great Shape" was never recorded. Have we learned nothing? Imagine if we had a clipping from '71 where Carl said to a journalist, "Me and Brian recorded a version of 'Surf's Up' back in '67 on the Wild Honey piano. It sounded great!" Now imagine it's 40 years later. We have no documentation for this tape and no one can remember a version of Surf's Up played on that piano. With the current school of logic, fans would be stating emphatically that Carl was either lying or mistaken. (That is, of course, until the release of a box set called The Smile Sessions, when suddenly...!) Good points, and yes, asking for sources and clarification is always important! What I should have said was, "There's no evidence that the Beach Boys recorded a cover of Working in a Coal Mine, and therefore, no reason to think they did." You're right; absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. All of the above is possible, but there's just no reason to think it's the case for this particular song, unless someone can dig up a quote from one of the band that suggests they recorded it.
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Post by AGD on May 22, 2022 12:33:35 GMT -5
Love how sometimes you'll see ordinary fans claim that something was "never recorded" and you're just supposed to trust them at their word without any sources.Is it that inconceivable to suggest that some tapes may just have been undocumented, lost, and forgotten? The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. I seem to remember fans 30 years ago insisting that "My Only Sunshine" and "Barnyard" were the same song, and that "I'm in Great Shape" was never recorded. Have we learned nothing? Imagine if we had a clipping from '71 where Carl said to a journalist, "Me and Brian recorded a version of 'Surf's Up' back in '67 on the Wild Honey piano. It sounded great!" Now imagine it's 40 years later. We have no documentation for this tape and no one can remember a version of Surf's Up played on that piano. With the current school of logic, fans would be stating emphatically that Carl was either lying or mistaken. (That is, of course, until the release of a box set called The Smile Sessions, when suddenly...!) Might want to reconsider this observation. Jus' sayin'...
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Post by WillJC on May 22, 2022 12:46:00 GMT -5
See, this thread - and indeed this board - is what I love about Beach Boys research, scholarship, what you will in the 21st century: information freely exchanged with no side or agenda by people who actually know what they're talking about (disclaimer: not me, mostly), concisely with no waffle. Means I have to adjust 10452 now and then, but I have no problem with that if it ups the accuracy quotient. Thanks, one and all.
I'll shoot you a long-overdue message with some amendments to the '73-'75 period soon - it'll be worth the wait! To clarify, Mikie, many of the things talked about here come from John and I sharing some findings in other spaces. Last year we made an effort (ongoing) to trawl through the 'wilderness' era and re-establish the original sources for existing info on those years while comparing to what material's actually there in the tape vault, as we've been doing with Craig and Joshilyn for most of the catalogue. What it ultimately comes down to in quite a few of those cases is that a song was mentioned in an interview, someone made an assumption, and the info was repeated from author to author without a background check. Badman's the nexus point for most of the worst of them, to be honest (Bedroom Tapes article hot on its tail). There's more material than commonly known about recorded between Holland and 15 Big Ones and less than you'd hope for. For one example, Mike spoke to Melody Maker about album plans in late '74, which is why 'Our Life, Our Love, Our Land', some unknown Al song about a landslide (potentially 'Earthquake Time', mentioned by Mike in '72 and written on a list of prospective titles in '68), and 'Don't Let Me Go' are known about. Mike didn't actually say any of those songs had been recorded, and if they eventually were, the tapes have been lost and gone and unknown for a long, long time. There's a chance 'Don't Let Me Go' might have been in some form - Carl did amass a small pile of untitled backing tracks in those years. I don't think it's really possible to establish that one unless someone remembers it.
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Post by Mikie on May 22, 2022 13:13:41 GMT -5
See, this thread - and indeed this board - is what I love about Beach Boys research, scholarship, what you will in the 21st century: information freely exchanged with no side or agenda by people who actually know what they're talking about (disclaimer: not me, mostly), concisely with no waffle. Means I have to adjust 10452 now and then, but I have no problem with that if it ups the accuracy quotient. Thanks, one and all.
I'll shoot you a long-overdue message with some amendments to the '73-'75 period soon - it'll be worth the wait! To clarify, Mikie, many of the things talked about here come from John and I sharing some findings in other spaces. Last year we made an effort (ongoing) to trawl through the 'wilderness' era and re-establish the original sources for existing info on those years while comparing to what material's actually there in the tape vault, as we've been doing with Craig and Joshilyn for most of the catalogue. What it ultimately comes down to in quite a few of those cases is that a song was mentioned in an interview, someone made an assumption, and the info was repeated from author to author without a background check. Badman's the nexus point for most of the worst of them, to be honest (Bedroom Tapes article hot on its tail). There's more material than commonly known about recorded between Holland and 15 Big Ones and less than you'd hope for. For one example, Mike spoke to Melody Maker about album plans in late '74, which is why 'Our Life, Our Love, Our Land', some unknown Al song about a landslide (potentially 'Earthquake Time', mentioned by Mike in '72 and written on a list of prospective titles in '68), and 'Don't Let Me Go' are known about. Mike didn't actually say any of those songs had been recorded, and if they eventually were, the tapes have been lost and gone and unknown for a long, long time. There's a chance 'Don't Let Me Go' might have been in some form - Carl did amass a small pile of untitled backing tracks in those years. I don't think it's really possible to establish that one unless someone remembers it. Right on, Will. We're glad you guys are sharing your findings in our space. I remember those revealing articles/interviews discussing unreleased tracks in Melody Maker, Crawdaddy, Rolling Stone, Goldmine, Discoveries, and others and so do a few others here. "Come To The Sunshine" has come up many times over the years and I was surprised to learn about the song "Pattycake" yesterday from John. Many of us thought the track exists. You can't always believe what you read! And you can't tell someone something they don't want to hear!
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Post by WillJC on May 22, 2022 13:28:28 GMT -5
I'll shoot you a long-overdue message with some amendments to the '73-'75 period soon - it'll be worth the wait! To clarify, Mikie, many of the things talked about here come from John and I sharing some findings in other spaces. Last year we made an effort (ongoing) to trawl through the 'wilderness' era and re-establish the original sources for existing info on those years while comparing to what material's actually there in the tape vault, as we've been doing with Craig and Joshilyn for most of the catalogue. What it ultimately comes down to in quite a few of those cases is that a song was mentioned in an interview, someone made an assumption, and the info was repeated from author to author without a background check. Badman's the nexus point for most of the worst of them, to be honest (Bedroom Tapes article hot on its tail). There's more material than commonly known about recorded between Holland and 15 Big Ones and less than you'd hope for. For one example, Mike spoke to Melody Maker about album plans in late '74, which is why 'Our Life, Our Love, Our Land', some unknown Al song about a landslide (potentially 'Earthquake Time', mentioned by Mike in '72 and written on a list of prospective titles in '68), and 'Don't Let Me Go' are known about. Mike didn't actually say any of those songs had been recorded, and if they eventually were, the tapes have been lost and gone and unknown for a long, long time. There's a chance 'Don't Let Me Go' might have been in some form - Carl did amass a small pile of untitled backing tracks in those years. I don't think it's really possible to establish that one unless someone remembers it. Right on, Will. We're glad you guys are sharing your findings in our space. I remember those revealing articles/interviews discussing unreleased tracks in Melody Maker, Crawdaddy, Rolling Stone, Goldmine, Discoveries, and others and so do a few others here. "Come To The Sunshine" has come up many times over the years and I was surprised to learn about the song "Pattycake" yesterday from John. Many of us thought the track exists. You can't always believe what you read! And you can't tell someone something they don't want to hear! Always glad to! It just takes a while to get these things right before offloading somewhere in public. I did give AGD some help to update the 1962, 1963, 1968 and 1972 pages on Bellagio a while ago but haven't kept up with it, and even those are due a few small amendments now. 'Pattycake' threw me for a loop, too. Turns out Leaf's book was the first and only original source for that being the title of a song, and his source was a radio interview with Brian that's out there online, in which Brian never actually talks about writing a song called 'Pattycake'. There's just an abrupt segue from discussing the gorilla called Pattycake to promoting 'Shyin' Away' that I guess Leaf must've severely misheard.
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Post by Mikie on May 22, 2022 13:37:05 GMT -5
Brian/Diane June 1973 Interview with Pete Fornatale
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Post by boogieboarder on May 22, 2022 17:48:35 GMT -5
In Surf's Up! The Beach Boys on Record, 1961-1981 by Brad Elliott, it is stated that “Carry Me Home” was never recorded. Shortly afterwards, suddenly there it was on bootlegs.
If there is indeed an unreleased song called “Patty Cake,” which is different than the previously unreleased “The Baker Man”, then The Beach Boys are probably the only major band to have recorded two different songs containing the words “Patty Cake,” let alone both written by the same person.
Well here comes a dance that will never be banned now (Patty cake patty cake baker's man) Yeah, stolen from a story called "The Baker's Man" now (Patty cake patty cake baker's man)
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Post by AGD on May 23, 2022 2:28:48 GMT -5
In Surf's Up! The Beach Boys on Record, 1961-1981 by Brad Elliott, it is stated that “Carry Me Home” was never recorded. Shortly afterwards, suddenly there it was on bootlegs. That's ongoing research for you: one of the prime examples of long accepted "knowledge" being later disproven is the 1967 Wally Heider sessions being rehearsals for the Hawaii shows. Speaking personally, decades ago I wrote an article in Beach Boys Stomp confidently stating that Brian started the Spring sessions tentatively then became more involved as his confidence increased, derived from nothing more concrete than a study of the album production and arrangement credits. I was only 100%, 180 degrees wrong: after speaking to SWD and Marilyn, it was obvious that he started interested then got bored and pretty much gave up on the project. Early researchers, in any given field, not just the BB cosmos, should be given a pass to some degree as detailed source material has emerged over the years since their time (bit like criticising Columbus for not having an engine on the Santa Maria). The only person I'd exempt from that is Badman: not content with totally misinterpreting sources and using others work uncredited, there's considerable suspicion he flat out made some stuff up.
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Post by jk on May 23, 2022 5:35:35 GMT -5
See, this thread - and indeed this board - is what I love about Beach Boys research, scholarship, what you will in the 21st century: information freely exchanged with no side or agenda by people who actually know what they're talking about (disclaimer: not me, mostly), concisely with no waffle. Means I have to adjust 10452 now and then, but I have no problem with that if it ups the accuracy quotient. Thanks, one and all.
Might want to reconsider this observation. Jus' sayin'...
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Post by boogieboarder on May 23, 2022 11:52:45 GMT -5
Imagine the disdain within Warners/Reprise when The Beach Boys had the number one record in the US and Canada on Capitol Records (a compilation of old recordings), and all they could come up with for their current Brother/Reprise contract were rumors of half-finished aborted and possibly destroyed tapes from Caribou, a handful of rejected outtakes from Sunflower and Surf’s Up, and rumors of a very ill Brian Wilson.
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on May 23, 2022 12:47:29 GMT -5
I’ve always been interested in this… Warner re-pressed sail on sailor in 1975 after endless summer, and it was much more successful than it’s first go round in 1973. After it was a minor hit, why did they not do this with other singles that were previous failures in the early 70s? Marcella could’ve done quite well in 1975 if promoted properly, same with California saga California. While they were waiting around for the beach boys to deliver new product, there is A lot they could have done with the 1970-73 material that could’ve helped
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robin
Kahuna
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Post by robin on May 23, 2022 15:45:37 GMT -5
I’ve always been interested in this… Warner re-pressed sail on sailor in 1975 after endless summer, and it was much more successful than it’s first go round in 1973. After it was a minor hit, why did they not do this with other singles that were previous failures in the early 70s? Marcella could’ve done quite well in 1975 if promoted properly, same with California saga California. While they were waiting around for the beach boys to deliver new product, there is A lot they could have done with the 1970-73 material that could’ve helped My Dad certainly would have agreed with you about "Marcella." His contention was (as noted elsewhere) that it should've been the first single from CATP, which was released in May and might have been held up a few weeks so somebody at Warners could have been extra clever and used the catchphrase "We can't wait for June!" But since that didn't happen, a re-release of it in the summer of 1975 might have been just the ticket. Andrew has the re-release of "Sail On Sailor" listed as March 1975, so bringing "Marcella" out in (what the hey...) June would make sense. What did they have to lose?
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petsite
Author/Historian/ Researcher
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Post by petsite on May 23, 2022 19:42:40 GMT -5
Look how many times SMiLE was promised and never delivered. This was hard info from the group and the labels. And nothing came of it.
Later, new converts would say how could you believe SMiLE was coming out. But we were told it was. So that is how info changes on unreleased tracks.
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Post by boogieboarder on May 23, 2022 19:51:21 GMT -5
Look how many times SMiLE was promised and never delivered. This was hard info from the group and the labels. And nothing came of it. Later, new converts would say how could you believe SMiLE was coming out. But we were told it was. So that is how info changes on unreleased tracks. Yes, and it was also rumored that Brian burned and/or erased the Smile recordings.
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petsite
Author/Historian/ Researcher
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Post by petsite on May 23, 2022 20:01:27 GMT -5
Like in 1972, they held a freaking news conference to announce SMiLE. In 1995 there was a two page article in Billboard with interviews of Mark and David Leaf. So when newer fans would say we were naive, I would just send them the articles. I still vividly remember being over the moon SMiLE tracks were going to be on TEN YEARS OF HARMONY. HA!!
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Post by Mikie on May 23, 2022 21:01:37 GMT -5
Here was my experience while listening extensively to Top 40 AM and FM radio airplay in the Bay Area in the early 70's. Most of these singles were "now you see 'em, now you don't" in the stores, even Tower who had the best stock. If you didn't pick them up as soon as they came out, they were gone and were soon deleted from the Warner/Reprise catalog. To a collector, it seemed like white labelled promo singles were much more ubiquitous than stock copies. I don't remember there being much promotion for these singles, though there may have been a little in Rolling Stone and Billboard/Cashbox.
"Add Some Music To Your Day/Susie Cincinnati" (A side played on FM radio briefly)
"Slip On Through"/ "This Whole World" (Virtually no airplay) Weirdly, stock copies of this single were plentiful.
"Tears in the Morning"/"It's About Time" (Virtually no airplay)
"Cool, Cool Water"/"Forever" (Virtually no airplay) Good luck trying to find an original U.S. stock copy of this single.
"Long Promised Road"/"Deirdre" (Virtually no airplay)
"Long Promised Road"/"Til I Die" (Virtually no airplay) (Second release in one year of LPR on a single in addition to the LP. Maybe Carl thought it was a hit?
"Surf's Up"/"Don't Go Near the Water" (A side on FM radio briefly) Good luck trying to find an original U.S. stock copy of this single.
"You Need a Mess of Help to Stand Alone"/"Cuddle Up" (Virtually no airplay) Good luck trying to find an original U.S. stock copy of this single. I was dumb enough to trade mine away and never found another one to replace it.
"Marcella"/"Hold On Dear Brother" (Brief FM airplay) I listened to a Dennis interview on FM radio in '72 and he talked about Marcella just being released.
"Sail On, Sailor"/"Only with You" (Went to #79 in '73 and then #49 in '75) (Moderate amount of AM and especially FM airplay) Singles of this one were plentiful.
"California Saga: California"/"Funky Pretty" (A side played on FM radio briefly).
"Child of Winter"/"Susie Cincinnati" (Virtually no airplay) Second out of three tries releasing Susie Cincinnati on a single and once on an LP. Somebody in the band or Warners insisted Susie was a hit! Child of Winter didn't do shit - just a dumb move all around to release it right before Christmas (it didn't hit the stores until after Christmas!)
"Surfin' U.S.A." Capitol re-issued single in 1974 (Coinciding with Endless Summer LP's) charted higher than all of the above singles did (#36).
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Post by #JusticeForDonGoldberg on May 23, 2022 21:26:19 GMT -5
Look how many times SMiLE was promised and never delivered. This was hard info from the group and the labels. And nothing came of it. Later, new converts would say how could you believe SMiLE was coming out. But we were told it was. So that is how info changes on unreleased tracks. Yes, and it was also rumored that Brian burned and/or erased the Smile recordings. Rumored, but officially Carl was calling BS on those rumors as early as the 70s.
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Post by Mikie on May 23, 2022 21:57:42 GMT -5
"A contract signed with Warner Bros. Records in 1970 following the group's departure from Capitol included a clause that stipulated a finished Smile to be delivered by May 1, 1973. Later in 1970, Brian spoke in a radio interview with Jack Rieley, who was then a DJ that Brian had recently met at his health food store called The Radiant Radish, about the track "Surf's Up", saying "It's just that it's too long. Instead of putting it on a record, I would rather just leave it as a song. It rambles. It's too long to make it for me as a record, unless it were an album cut, which I guess it would have to be anyway. It's so far from a singles sound. It could never be a single."* Rieley then became the group's manager and adviser. With permission from Brian, between mid-June and early July 1971, Rieley and Carl retrieved most of the original Smile multi-tracks for careful examination. The primary reason for this trawl was to locate the masters for "Surf's Up", which was decided for inclusion on the Beach Boys forthcoming album of the same name. As progress continued, Brian gradually withdrew from the song's assembly, presumably due to the negative memories associated with the Smile sessions. Yet, the Surf's Up album was completed and released in August 1971 with its title track serving as the album's closer. Besides its title track, Surf's Up bears no connection to Smile neither thematically nor musically, and no other tapes from the latter's sessions were used. Sometime after, Brian and American Spring contributed guest vocals for a cover of "Vegetables" by Jan and Dean".
Early in 1972, the Beach Boys announced that they would be finishing Smile to follow up on the critical and commercial success of Surf's Up. By the end of the year, the idea was either abandoned or forgotten, with Brian refusing to participate in any further Smile-related reworkings, leading the group to pay a $50,000 fine. Later in the 1970s, Bruce Johnston said that an assembled release of Smile would be a "bad idea" commercially. He expounded that its release could only satisfy a highly-niche audience, deeming the material too inaccessible for mainstream record-buyers, and explained, "Sometimes, you're kind of let down. Say you discover the tapes and you say, 'Oh yeah?' It's been talked about so much…It would live up to your expectations if you were Zubin Mehta analyzing a young composer's work.".
*Surf's Up was released later as a single. And it flopped.
Wish I could find it, but i remember distinctly that either Carl or Mike told a concert audience in the early 70's that Smile was going to come out.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on May 23, 2022 22:07:56 GMT -5
I believe Mike mentioned that Smile would be released soon when he was introducing “Wonder-Bill” at the Carnegie Hall gig.
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petsite
Author/Historian/ Researcher
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Post by petsite on May 23, 2022 22:25:43 GMT -5
I believe Mike mentioned that Smile would be released soon when he was introducing “Wonder-Bill” at the Carnegie Hall gig. Yes he did. On the ENDLESS HARMONY soundtrack.
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Post by Mikie on May 23, 2022 22:26:02 GMT -5
I believe Mike mentioned that Smile would be released soon when he was introducing “Wonder-Bill” at the Carnegie Hall gig. YES!! I knew I heard it somewhere! "Several years ago we did an album called 'Smile'.............yeah, and it should be out....this coming year. We're gonna do.......one of the songs from that album combined with another song, in other words two songs in one. One of them is called Wonderful, the other is called Don't Worry Bill, and the two together we're calling "Wonderbill". - Mike Love, November 23,1972 at Carnegie Hall, New York City.
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