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Post by meltaway on Jan 6, 2019 14:59:59 GMT -5
Well, all this seems rather contradictory. If Brian seriously hasn't written anything since TLOS, then who finished up those two Gershwin ditties? Don't tell me, Scott Bennett, Paul Mertens, Darian ...
Am also surprised about the credit given BW for Summer's Gone, as he seems to have written it with two other writers (Joe Thomas and Jon Bon Jovi). Then again Sail on Sailor was great and it apparently had an army of writers.
Maybe Joe Thomas has done most of the heavy lifting re. developing and completing songs started by Brian over their recent two albums, but the question remains - where are all the great Joe Thomas songs written only by Joe Thomas? If he's capable of effectively ghost-writing much of the material on Imagination, TWGMTR and NPP, then he must be a pretty talented guy ...
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Post by craigslowinski on Jan 6, 2019 17:45:39 GMT -5
Well, all this seems rather contradictory. If Brian seriously hasn't written anything since TLOS, then who finished up those two Gershwin ditties? Don't tell me, Scott Bennett, Paul Mertens, Darian ... Am also surprised about the credit given BW for Summer's Gone, as he seems to have written it with two other writers (Joe Thomas and Jon Bon Jovi). Then again Sail on Sailor was great and it apparently had an army of writers. Maybe Joe Thomas has done most of the heavy lifting re. developing and completing songs started by Brian over their recent two albums, but the question remains - where are all the great Joe Thomas songs written only by Joe Thomas? If he's capable of effectively ghost-writing much of the material on Imagination, TWGMTR and NPP, then he must be a pretty talented guy ... I think the blanket statement "Brian hasn't written anything since TLOS" is meant to be understood as "with a few exceptions"...including, for instance, the Gerswhin tunes you mentioned. As for "Summer's Gone", that was started by Brian and Joe in the Imagination days, and finished lyrically by JBJ prior to the God Made The Radio recording sessions.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 18:53:52 GMT -5
I interpret it to mean "Brian hasn't written a new song FROM SCRATCH" as opposed to him offering a few bars, or banging away at a piano and Joe Thomas making it into a frankensteined song. To my ears, Brian sounds enthusiastic and purposeful with his work during the Paley Sessions and TLOS. It sounds like the same old Brian, and several tracks on both stuck with me and left a huge impression. So I'm inclined to believe this theory, as it explains why those two particular projects sound so much better than anything else he's done.
However, the Joe Thomas projects feel very generic and uninspired to me. Not only that, the Paley Sessions wikipedia page (which is pretty extensive, surprisingly) went into meticulous detail about how Brian didn't really want to quit the Paley stuff and work with Joe Thomas, but Melinda pressured him. This is what inspired me to make this thread. I don't know all the details of course, but it seems like Melinda only wants Brian to work with her hand-picked people, or at least the people she deems commercial enough. This bothers me because, as Sheriff said, is it really so important for Brian to be churning out hits these days? If he wants to make music that's fantastic but it should be music he wants to make, not trying to top the charts anymore. And judging by the quality of product as well as his vague but leading statements in the press it seems Brian's not often happy with what he's doing. As others have said, he's a very passive person.
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Post by AGD on Jan 7, 2019 1:16:43 GMT -5
I think the blanket statement "Brian hasn't written anything since TLOS" is meant to be understood as "with a few exceptions"...including, for instance, the Gerswhin tunes you mentioned. FWIW, both of the Gershwin fragments worked up into "new" songs have a credit for Scott Bennett.
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Post by kreen on Jan 8, 2019 14:22:30 GMT -5
I think the blanket statement "Brian hasn't written anything since TLOS" is meant to be understood as "with a few exceptions"...including, for instance, the Gerswhin tunes you mentioned. FWIW, both of the Gershwin fragments worked up into "new" songs have a credit for Scott Bennett. Doing interviews for the Gershwin CD, everytime BW was asked how much he loved Gershwin, he'd give the exact same answer and mention the exact same song, Rhapsody in Blue. I honestly got the feeling that he knew nothing of Gershwin except RIB, and that he couldn't name any other song off his own CD. My guess is that those two "new" Gershwin songs are Scott Bennett originals.
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Post by WillJC on Jan 8, 2019 14:39:28 GMT -5
FWIW, both of the Gershwin fragments worked up into "new" songs have a credit for Scott Bennett. Doing interviews for the Gershwin CD, everytime BW was asked how much he loved Gershwin, he'd give the exact same answer and mention the exact same song, Rhapsody in Blue. I honestly got the feeling that he knew nothing of Gershwin except RIB, and that he couldn't name any other song off his own CD. My guess is that those two "new" Gershwin songs are Scott Bennett originals. Except Brian's favourite tracks are I Loves You Porgy and I Got Plenty o' Nuttin'. Rhapsody is clearly the biggest influence for Brian, but c'mon, that blatantly isn't true.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 14:45:06 GMT -5
FWIW, both of the Gershwin fragments worked up into "new" songs have a credit for Scott Bennett. Doing interviews for the Gershwin CD, everytime BW was asked how much he loved Gershwin, he'd give the exact same answer and mention the exact same song, Rhapsody in Blue. I honestly got the feeling that he knew nothing of Gershwin except RIB, and that he couldn't name any other song off his own CD. My guess is that those two "new" Gershwin songs are Scott Bennett originals. It might just be his favorite song, it doesn't mean he's not familiar with Gershwin's other stuff. This kind of assumption really bothers me because it's the same thing another poster just accused me of--that the only BB material I care/know about is SMiLE just because it's the one I talk about most often. I dislike it when someone's preference is then used to "prove" ignorance of anything else. I've heard multiple sources over the years reference Gershwin as one of Brian's biggest influences for whatever it's worth.
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Post by WillJC on Jan 8, 2019 14:48:57 GMT -5
Further on Brian & Gershwin, here's an extract from an interview with Peter Carlin:
Also on Porgy:
It's well established at this point that there's a lot more to Brian Wilson than the small window into his persona he gives in interviews, and he definitely listens to more than the small ring of songs he tends to mention over and over again in public. There isn't exactly much to cover up with the Gershwin album - everyone involved's been completely transparent that the general process was Paul Von Mertens arranging the tracks, Brian altering them (apparently quite extensively), Brian arranging the backing vocals and then doing his leads. I don't know about The Like in I Love You, but for Nothing But Love, a backing track was cut before there were any lyrics or a melody. Brian improvised a melody over the track and then Scott Bennett put lyrics to it.
Actually, here's an edit, according to Paul Mertens The Like in I Love You was pretty much the same deal:
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Post by lonelysummer on Jan 8, 2019 15:12:57 GMT -5
It's so refreshing to be on a forum where people can talk openly about the Melinda situation. On some of the other forums you are immediately shot down if you imply she is anything but a saint.
I find it really hard to believe that Brian wanted to tour year after year doing nothing but the old hits - yet that's exactly what he's doing now. For years, I used to see the criticism of the Beach Boys being a touring jukebox - both before and after Carl's death. That statement always seemed to imply that, if Brian were to do concerts, it would be as a vital, creative, contemporary artist. So now we have this strange situation where Brian is doing greatest hits and Pet Sounds shows, while Mike actually puts a few new songs in his shows.
It's clear to me that Brian is on the road because that's where the money is. His albums don't sell, he's not writing anything new, so Melinda pushes him onto the tour bus, and off he goes.
I could imagine his band going out and doing the same songs, with Al and Blondie doing the majority of the leads, but what would they call the show? The Brian Wilson Band featuring Al Jardine? Brian Wilson's Beach Boys? Beach Boys Family and Friends? lol
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Post by Mopp on Jan 8, 2019 15:42:52 GMT -5
I find it really hard to believe that Brian wanted to tour year after year doing nothing but the old hits If Brian had to keep touring, I would love if he was allowed to pick a setlist and was allowed to play some deep cuts he likes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 15:48:48 GMT -5
I find it really hard to believe that Brian wanted to tour year after year doing nothing but the old hits If Brian had to keep touring, I would love if he was allowed to pick a setlist and was allowed to play some deep cuts he likes. Yes. I know such an endeavor would not be a huge seller, but it'd be nice if his band had toured Smiley Smile, Love You or some of the niche albums. Even just as a one-night only thing, and maybe selling made to order DVD recordings of the show. I'd buy it. I recall in the Q&A he did on SmileySmile Forum years ago Brian was interested in touring Love You as well. It's a shame that never came to pass, and it's probably too late now
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 15:52:16 GMT -5
Do we really think the reason Brian Wilson, of the Beach Boys, in his 70s, is still doing tours (which apparently aren't even very profitable) because of money? Sorry, that's laughable. Melinda isn't forcing him to go on tour so they can pay the rent. To pay rent, no. But to live the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed? To save up a big nest egg for the kids? I don't see why that's considered unlikely. I'm not saying it's nefarious to do such a thing, but let's not pretend that Brian (whose aversion to touring is well-known and who's been a submissive person his whole life) has nothing more stimulating to do in his twilight years than play the same ~20, 30 songs every night.
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Post by John Manning on Jan 8, 2019 15:57:01 GMT -5
Gaaaaarrrrggghhhh!!!!
I refuse to believe it’s as simple a picture as any of us are painting.
I don’t think Melinda would force him out on the road against his wishes. I don’t think Brian would be out on the road if he didn’t want to be. I don’t think anyone these days would hold such sway over him.
I don’t know what the truth is. But I wonder if, by 2012, Brian had really gotten into playing live and just doesn’t know when to stop, and the touring mechanism that has built up around him simply and easily facilitates a never-ending tour.
Seems the only breaks now are to enable band members to spend a little quality time with their own families before heading back out on the road.
Maybe no one in any position of influence has simply suggested to Brian that he might like to stop.
Could someone suggest to him that it’s been a while since his last album release?
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Post by John Manning on Jan 8, 2019 16:06:50 GMT -5
Gaaaaarrrrgggghhhhh! I’ve had some more thoughts.
I don’t believe Melinda would have a single exploitative thought towards Brian at all, ever. She’s saved him from the fire once, was always there for him, and anyway I suspect she’s comfortable enough raising the kids without any need for tour income. Asda (that’s UK’s Walmart to US cousins) is selling the Pet Sounds mono/stereo CD right now for £3 a pop – royalties from the various editions of that one album alone will probably see Brian’s kids through university and beyond.
Her lack of any current public profile is slightly curious compared to the old days but, as others have suggested up-thread, raising all their kids is doubtless time consuming.
Nah I’m sure there’s more to this than we might ever know … we WANT to know because we care, but we’ve no entitlement therein.
Are we right to speculate, or should we be living our own lives? The latter, I suspect.
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Post by kds on Jan 8, 2019 16:09:44 GMT -5
Are we right to speculate, or should we be living our own lives? The latter, I suspect. As long as the endless final performances of Pet Sounds continue, and Brian appears to be less and less interested at the shows, the speculation as to why it's still happening still go on.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 16:16:19 GMT -5
I'll admit I'm not a big expert on the shows. What concerns me is his solo career. At first I'd just assumed he'd lost his touch, which is tragic but it happens. It was the gritty details about the Paley Sessions coming apart and going into Imagination that first raised suspicions for me. The entire clusterfuck of a PR nightmare around NPP as well.
I don't know enough about them to confirm or deny, but AGD raising the issue of the 80s-segments of Love and Mercy also raises an eyebrow too.
But who knows.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 16:26:11 GMT -5
As far as BRIAN touring for the money, I think that is waaaaaay down on the list of priorities and probably not something he even thinks about. From what we do know about Brian's lifestyle away from the road, it is relatively simple and modest. It doesn't require a large...budget. And - and this might surprise some people coming from me - but I don't think Melinda views touring as this big, lucrative money maker either. Let's look at this logically. While I'm sure Brian gets his cut first, and it's probably a nice slice of the pie, he can't be pulling in huge sums of money. Look at the venues he plays and the sizes of the audiences. This isn't Rolling Stones or Paul McCartney or even Bob Dylan territory we're talking about. Brian does alright but he ain't touring for the $$$$$$$$$$$. Brian Wilson is a millionaire many times over and his wealth will naturally continue to grow, whether he tours or not.
I firmly believe, at this stage in his life, Brian has agreed or bought in or use any terminology you would like, that touring would be good for him mentally and physically. Yes, even physically! I believe Brian and his team view touring as a form of occupational, physical, and even musical therapy. Get him up in the morning, get him moving around, keep him socializing with good people, keep his mind occupied on the task at hand (the concert), and, even keep him ACTIVELY MAKING MUSIC. I don't mean for this to sound condescending. It's not, nor am I saying it is Landy-like. It looks to me like a well thought-out Treatment Plan devised by his team of doctors, his wifeandmanagers, and Brian himself. The goal is obvious - keep Brian alive and productive. Maybe they feel the alternative - staying home and doing who knows what - would not be the way to go. Now, whether Brian has bought into this plan, well, you'll have to judge for yourself. I suppose he has...up to a point.
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Post by John Manning on Jan 8, 2019 16:44:58 GMT -5
As far as BRIAN touring for the money, I think that is waaaaaay down on the list of priorities and probably not something he even thinks about. From what we do know about Brian's lifestyle away from the road, it is relatively simple and modest. It doesn't require a large...budget. And - and this might surprise some people coming from me - but I don't think Melinda views touring as this big, lucrative money maker either. Let's look at this logically. While I'm sure Brian gets his cut first, and it's probably a nice slice of the pie, he can't be pulling in huge sums of money. Look at the venues he plays and the sizes of the audiences. This isn't Rolling Stones or Paul McCartney or even Bob Dylan territory we're talking about. Brian does alright but he ain't touring for the $$$$$$$$$$$. Brian Wilson is a millionaire many times over and his wealth will naturally continue to grow, whether he tours or not.
I firmly believe, at this stage in his life, Brian has agreed or bought in or use any terminology you would like, that touring would be good for him mentally and physically. Yes, even physically! I believe Brian and his team view touring as a form of occupational, physical, and even musical therapy. Get him up in the morning, get him moving around, keep him socializing with good people, keep his mind occupied on the task at hand (the concert), and, even keep him ACTIVELY MAKING MUSIC. I don't mean for this to sound condescending. It's not, nor am I saying it is Landy-like. It looks to me like a well thought-out Treatment Plan devised by his team of doctors, his wifeandmanagers, and Brian himself. The goal is obvious - keep Brian alive and productive. Maybe they feel the alternative - staying home and doing who knows what - would not be the way to go. Now, whether Brian has bought into this plan, well, you'll have to judge for yourself. I suppose he has...up to a point.
This all makes perfect sense, thank you. Has the therapy tour become the default position though. Who’ll call time on it when it’s time to call time? Or is everyone waiting for someone else to call time? Or am I wrong and it’s simply not time?
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Post by monolithic on Jan 8, 2019 16:53:34 GMT -5
I find it really hard to believe that Brian wanted to tour year after year doing nothing but the old hits If Brian had to keep touring, I would love if he was allowed to pick a setlist and was allowed to play some deep cuts he likes. Based on some of the comments by Brian's band members, I think Brian actually feels more comfortable with the hits and songs he has played for a long time.
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Post by catbirdman on Jan 8, 2019 16:59:22 GMT -5
I haven't read the whole thread, so others have probably said similar things already, but anyway...
I believe Brian continues to tour because it brings benefits which are almost irreplaceable. Yes, there are negatives - the overall strain, the obvious struggle he has with keeping his inspiration fresh - but the positives are like medicine to him. By touring, he receives a consistent supply of love/adoration/acceptance, and he has a purpose. I believe that on his own, at home, it would be more difficult for Brian to face the negativity in his head. I give Melinda credit and I think she understands that, and that is why she pushed him to tour to begin with.
I'm not in a position to speculate more on her motives, and it would only be natural that she has multiple motives as well. And I'm sure I wouldn't agree 100% with every decision that has been made over the years with the amount of touring. But overall, I think the broad decision she made way back when (which Brian obviously agreed on), to establish a routine of touring, has been better than the alternative of just letting Brian do whatever he wants at home.
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Post by nach0king on Jan 8, 2019 17:22:43 GMT -5
Maybe I'm naive but I get the feeling Brian enjoys: getting on airplanes, staying in hotels, sitting behind his piano on stage, being around a group of people who know how he works and can keep things running smoothly for him without any surprises.
And doesn't enjoy: meet and greets, unscheduled events, awkward interactions, interviews, photo ops, unfamiliarity.
Touring comes with both of those things.
Are they better than his sitting in his easy chair back in LA and watching TV, walking to the deli for lunch, then going back to the TV?
Not sure.
And I do wonder, also, what's better for the younger members of his family. He and Melinda have young kids! How active and attentive a father he is, it's very hard to say. He's certainly different in a lot of ways from when Wendy and Carnie were growing up, and that's without the inevitable slowing down that comes with age. Having no knowledge of this, it would be rude to speculate.
By 'allowing' the tours (maybe too strong a word?) Melinda seemingly feels the pros outweigh the cons, and I don't think she is wrong in her assessment, and nor do I think she'd simply force him out on the road for some extra bucks. They are quite comfortably off as it is.
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Post by Beach Boys Fan on Jan 8, 2019 17:26:00 GMT -5
Gaaaaarrrrggghhhh!!!! I refuse to believe it’s as simple a picture as any of us are painting. I don’t think Melinda would force him out on the road against his wishes. I don’t think Brian would be out on the road if he didn’t want to be. I don’t think anyone these days would hold such sway over him. Quite. Agree 100%.
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Post by Beach Boys Fan on Jan 8, 2019 17:48:26 GMT -5
Gaaaaarrrrgggghhhhh! I’ve had some more thoughts. I don’t believe Melinda would have a single exploitative thought towards Brian at all, ever. She’s saved him from the fire once, was always there for him, and anyway I suspect she’s comfortable enough raising the kids without any need for tour income. Asda (that’s UK’s Walmart to US cousins) is selling the Pet Sounds mono/stereo CD right now for £3 a pop – royalties from the various editions of that one album alone will probably see Brian’s kids through university and beyond. Her lack of any current public profile is slightly curious compared to the old days but, as others have suggested up-thread, raising all their kids is doubtless time consuming. Nah I’m sure there’s more to this than we might ever know … we WANT to know because we care, but we’ve no entitlement therein. Are we right to speculate, or should we be living our own lives? The latter, I suspect. Agree again. Well said. Then agree with some of catbirdman and nach0king's points.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 18:58:07 GMT -5
As far as BRIAN touring for the money, I think that is waaaaaay down on the list of priorities and probably not something he even thinks about. From what we do know about Brian's lifestyle away from the road, it is relatively simple and modest. It doesn't require a large...budget. And - and this might surprise some people coming from me - but I don't think Melinda views touring as this big, lucrative money maker either. Let's look at this logically. While I'm sure Brian gets his cut first, and it's probably a nice slice of the pie, he can't be pulling in huge sums of money. Look at the venues he plays and the sizes of the audiences. This isn't Rolling Stones or Paul McCartney or even Bob Dylan territory we're talking about. Brian does alright but he ain't touring for the $$$$$$$$$$$. Brian Wilson is a millionaire many times over and his wealth will naturally continue to grow, whether he tours or not.
I firmly believe, at this stage in his life, Brian has agreed or bought in or use any terminology you would like, that touring would be good for him mentally and physically. Yes, even physically! I believe Brian and his team view touring as a form of occupational, physical, and even musical therapy. Get him up in the morning, get him moving around, keep him socializing with good people, keep his mind occupied on the task at hand (the concert), and, even keep him ACTIVELY MAKING MUSIC. I don't mean for this to sound condescending. It's not, nor am I saying it is Landy-like. It looks to me like a well thought-out Treatment Plan devised by his team of doctors, his wifeandmanagers, and Brian himself. The goal is obvious - keep Brian alive and productive. Maybe they feel the alternative - staying home and doing who knows what - would not be the way to go. Now, whether Brian has bought into this plan, well, you'll have to judge for yourself. I suppose he has...up to a point.
This all makes perfect sense, thank you. Has the therapy tour become the default position though. Who’ll call time on it when it’s time to call time? Or is everyone waiting for someone else to call time? Or am I wrong and it’s simply not time? I can't help but think of Frank Sinatra in his later years. Now, first, comparing Frank Sinatra and Brian Wilson as live performers is useless. There is no comparison. Sinatra lived for live performances, putting on the tux, the spotlight, the audience interaction and feedback, the art of performing, and just the basic thrill of being onstage. Stage fright? Sinatra owned the stage. Singing live was art to Sinatra; he was a true artist.
Frank Sinatra performed live until he was 79 years old. Like Brian Wilson, near the end of his career, Sinatra performed the same basic, familiar setlists, mainly so he could manage the lyrics. However, on occasion Frank did "go blank" on stage, forgetting lyrics or not picking up his teleprompter. Now, for Brian Wilson, the show would simply go on with another band member filling in the lyrics/vocal until Brian recovered. It is no big deal with Brian Wilson, but with Frank Sinatra it was, and word started to spread about "Sinatra forgetting the words". This wasn't exactly pre-internet, but social media hadn't yet reached the point it is now, and Frank persevered on. Then, I remember reading about a concert where Sinatra fell on stage while performing. It even made the 6:30 PM national nightly news. There was footage of Sinatra lying on the stage while people were tending to him. It was scary, and shortly after that "people" really began talking. Fans weren't exactly calling for his immediate retirement from live performances, but they were holding their collective breath. I was one of them. And, as I remember, after that fall on stage, every forgetting of the lyrics or almost stumble on stage was magnified in the press. It wasn't long after that Frank's health deteriorated and he retired from the road.
Where am I going with this? Brian Wilson has already reached the point where some fans are worried about his health and his ability to perform competently. I say "some fans" because for every fan who would like to see Brian retire from the road, there is another fan who is hoping he bounces back and carries on. And, for every concert review which points out Brian's fragile appearance, there is another writer who is praising Brian for "bringing his good vibrations to adoring fans". I've seen the YouTube videos, you've seen the YouTube videos. Some of them are heartbreaking and literally take your breath away and cause your heart to start pounding. And you think to yourself, well, they have to stop this; it isn't right. Brian shouldn't be left on stage to embarrass himself like that. But they don't. Yes, I guess "they" know more than you and me. We just speculate.
Finally getting to the answer to your question, John. Maybe it will take something just one step further, like a fall on stage similar to Frank Sinatra. Maybe the video will go viral. I mean, I hate to say that but that's how things work. People have to see the actual footage for themselves before they become outraged. Didn't Brian have a little stumble on stage (or fell from his chair?) over the last year or two? I'm certainly not predicting or wishing for anything like that to happen (though some people will twist my words and this post undoubtedly), and I'm hoping that Brian can sail into the sunset without incident. But sometimes it takes something drastic for change to happen.
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Post by John Manning on Jan 8, 2019 19:09:30 GMT -5
I have really mixed feelings about the subject. I don’t want to see Brian retire but I don’t think it’s wise to continue either. I want to see him stride into the sunset but fear he’s going to stumble and fall into it.
That said, I don’t think anything that’s happened thus far has embarrassed Brian. He’s resolute, determined though I sense stubbornness and perhaps naivety too. There I go, projecting.
I mentioned a while ago that I won’t attend another live show unless something miraculous takes place beforehand; I hope those who do continue to go get a great show, but I won’t regret staying home.
I’d really love for someone close to Brian to share a few facts about what’s going on, cos some things seem out of place, not wrong but not normal either.
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