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Post by monolithic on Jan 3, 2019 18:13:02 GMT -5
Some random thoughts...
I personally wouldn't say that Brian's solo career has been mismanaged as much as some suggest. The solo touring was initially managed very well imo with the excitement of the first tours and then the hype of Pet sounds and Smile. Brian was getting great reviews all over the place and those reviews were not particularly based on his own stage contributions or any new songs. That would have been unimaginable a few years earlier. Then there was the critical success of TLOS and I would think few were complaining at that point...
It is also difficult to imagine the challenges of being involved in Brian's career even if you ignore Brian's issues. In terms of new songs, over the past 20 years or so there have probably only been about 30 new Brian songs issued which is obviously not enough to sustain a solo career. So the fact that projects like the Christmas album, Gershwin, Disney etc. have been released makes sense. Obviously they were all partly due to offers from record labels, but they also allowed Brian to remain productive without actually doing much songwriting.
And with regard to touring, it has been said many times that the TLOS tours lost money for the promoters so it was probably inevitable that a move into "safe" greatest hits and Pet Sounds tours would happen. Fans would obviously have loved a Love You or BW88 tour, but I doubt that either would have been feasible. I also thought it was interesting that (I think) Job Stebbins said at the time that Brian needed the reunion in 2012 more than Mike did and that has probably proven to be true.
I think Brian's recent touring also underlines how tough it must be to live and work with his issues. For a long time the suggestion has been that if Brian could stop playing the greatest hits, he would be giving far superior live shows. The Christmas tour has been a reality check. The truth is that he is singing fewer and fewer leads every year, the effort he puts into his vocals gets lesser all the time and he openly asks whether the show's over so he can get off stage. It doesn't seem like he wants to be on stage, but equally staying at home could be even worse for him.
And I think Brian certainly does need the right collaborators if he is going to be successful in the studio. Losing Scott Bennett must have been a huge blow and there are also inevitable compromises that must be made. Joe Thomas is not the greatest producer by any means, but he does get things released and he did (and possibly still does) have a huge stockpile of Brian songs. The fact that Brian (or Melinda) went back to him is understandable.
Having said all that though, GIOMH still sucks big time.
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Post by AGD on Jan 4, 2019 12:28:29 GMT -5
I don't think Brian is being controlled in the sense he was during the Landy years 1975-76 and 1982-91. I do however (based on conversations over the years with close associates and people who know him well) feel he's capable of being influenced or, as someone observed to me, he'll agree to most anything in pursuit of an easy life, and others know this. That's not so much controlling as it is taking advantage of. The very existence of GIOMH is proof positive that he can be cajoled into doing something something he's really not that interested in.
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Post by John Manning on Jan 4, 2019 13:06:13 GMT -5
I wonder whether it’s pursuit of an easy life or reluctance to/fear of inconveniencing others? From what little I know about the autistic spectrum, I’ve always suspected Brian’s on that spectrum to a greater degree than many of us might be, and that can involve a reluctance to raise one’s head above the metaphorical parapet.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2019 13:38:42 GMT -5
I particularly agree with AGD and @sheriff thus far. Very well said
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Post by andrewhickey on Jan 4, 2019 15:02:24 GMT -5
I wonder whether it’s pursuit of an easy life or reluctance to/fear of inconveniencing others? From what little I know about the autistic spectrum, I’ve always suspected Brian’s on that spectrum to a greater degree than many of us might be, and that can involve a reluctance to raise one’s head above the metaphorical parapet. As an autistic person myself, I can confirm that Brian pings my autisticdar to a *huge* extent. And the easy life thing and the fear of upsetting others very much go hand in hand As for mismanagement more generally, I'd say that at least until after the 2012 reunion tour, and arguably for a few years afterward, Brian's solo career was managed *very* well. We can debate how good the ideas of bringing Joe Thomas into the picture, or not releasing the Paley sessions, and so on, were, but the fact remains that at least up until that point the overall story of Brian's solo career post-1995 or so was of someone steadily getting more respect, getting prestigious commissions like the one from the Royal Festival Hall that led to That Lucky Old Sun, and getting rave reviews for his tours. Since then... well, the cancellation of the 2015 UK tour was entirely predictable and avoidable, but seems to have led Brian's management to push for the safest possible tours in terms of ticket sales, and the tours since that point have been steadily worse. *Something* went off the rails around then, but whatever it was, I don't think any of us know. But I think if we're going to give Melinda the blame for that, we should also give her the credit for so much going *right*.
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Post by Paul JB on Jan 4, 2019 16:18:37 GMT -5
The only real mismanagement I've seen in Brian's solo career is what has transpired these last couple of years. Be it Melinda or whomever coaxing Brian, or whatever one wants to call it, has been going on since at least the early '70's. The guy driven to succeed and produce and create big selling records was on his way out the door when Smile collapsed. Not saying he quit or gave up...we know he did not....but the slide into the abyss began. Brian was not and IS not going to reach out by himself to anybody and get into a studio to record/produce/release some outstanding music at this stage nor was he in that frame of mind in the 80's or 90's. If that was the case he would have. He didn't then and he won't now. How is it people think Landy ended up coming into his life not once but twice? I like NPP but I'm not dumb enough to think Brian was really looking forward to making an album with people he most likely had never heard of. We all know how the thing with Jeff Beck played out....and the comments Beck made concerning it. Carl & Mike, Melinda, Landy, Dennis,....there were always people there hoping to get Brian motivated with little to no success. Melinda is the one that got things going in the right direction for quite a while and with a large measure of success. Lots of missteps...?... of course, but we are all playing with 20/20 revisionist history if we think Brian was ready willing and able to blow our minds but handlers/others got in the way. People have been saying that since 1966.
Before the plug was pulled at PS I had recently bloviated about people I think have a screw loose who think they know Brian and love to feel his pain. So here I am talking like I know where he's at....I don't for sure but I don't think any opportunity was missed for Brian to work with great people and make great records these last 30 years and the thing that got in the way was Melinda. Things got really messed up and really complicated for Brian Wilson way before Melinda ever met him. I'm still shocked he had a solo career at all and until recently the good outweighed the bad.
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Post by Wicked Lester on Jan 4, 2019 16:28:13 GMT -5
I think it's quite telling that since his 90s comeback Brian has not produced other artists.
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Post by Cam Mott on Jan 4, 2019 18:05:27 GMT -5
This may sound like something I don't mean or I be may feeling stupid soon but do we know Brian has written a song since the 90s?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2019 19:29:41 GMT -5
This may sound like something I don't mean or I be may feeling stupid soon but do we know Brian has written a song since the 90s? I dont know. My gut feeling is that Joe Thomas and/or other collaborators have certainly done a lot of help getting his songs done. This shouldn't be a controversial opinion since Carl Wilson, Landy and Paley did a lot of heavy lifting to realize Brian's compositions since the mid-70s. There's some songs here and there that have a lot more of the old Brian magic than most of the new stuff. Summer's Gone and Good Kinda Love come to mind immediately. So my speculative opinion is that every now and then Brian gets a stroke of inspiration but not nearly enough to make full albums by himself anymore--at least not without a significant collaborator and pre-existing material to build off of. I think a lot of his new material is largely the brainchildren of Joe Thomas. (If Im wrong, and Brian's taking the lion's share of all songwriting since the 90s, then I have to say quite frankly that he lost his touch. So much of his solo stuff sounds generic and derivative as if someone were trying to write in his style but coming up short.)
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Post by monolithic on Jan 4, 2019 21:10:08 GMT -5
This may sound like something I don't mean or I be may feeling stupid soon but do we know Brian has written a song since the 90s? I'm happy to believe that Brian was heavily involved in the songwriting for TLOS. After that, I would think his songwriting forays have been sporadic to say the least.
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Post by kds on Jan 4, 2019 22:59:33 GMT -5
This may sound like something I don't mean or I be may feeling stupid soon but do we know Brian has written a song since the 90s? I recall in a recent interview Brian claimed he hadn't written a song in 20 years or so.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2019 23:50:47 GMT -5
This may sound like something I don't mean or I be may feeling stupid soon but do we know Brian has written a song since the 90s? I recall in a recent interview Brian claimed he hadn't written a song in 20 years or so. That would put his own self-imposed cutoff at around the end of the Paley Sessions, beginning of Imagination. I absolutely believe it.
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Post by AGD on Jan 5, 2019 3:29:03 GMT -5
This may sound like something I don't mean or I be may feeling stupid soon but do we know Brian has written a song since the 90s? Probably the last time there were new songs written from scratch, and the late 90s stockpile not raided, was in 2006, and TLOS. Granted a few dated back to the Paley sessions but I truly believe that the bulk of that excellent album was new material. I interviewed Scott shortly thereafter and that was my strong impression.
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Post by AGD on Jan 5, 2019 5:12:47 GMT -5
I stand corrected: a good proportion of the songs on TWGMTR are likely new material. NPP ? Not so sure...
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Post by andrewhickey on Jan 5, 2019 14:26:31 GMT -5
Yeah, I think the breakdown for "That's Why God Made The Radio" goes something like: Think About The Days -- Joe Thomas song to which Brian added vocal arrangements, 2012 Title track -- dates back to 1998 Isn't It Time -- 2012, but largely the work of Larry Millas and Jim Peterik Spring Vacation -- 1998 Private Life -- 2012, verse by Brian, chorus Thomas Shelter -- 2012 Daybreak -- Mike, 70s Beaches in Mind -- never seen anyone talk about the writing of this so no idea. I'd guess 2012 just from Mike contributing. Strange World -- 1998 From There to Back Again -- 2012 Pacific Coast Highway -- 1998 Summer's Gone -- 1998
Oddly, to my ears, the 2012 material is almost uniformly better than the 1998 material.
As for No Pier Pressure, I would be very surprised if Brian contributed anything that really counts as songwriting to any song on that album, except maybe "One Kind of Love". He said in interviews that Thomas came up with the chord patterns (and that sounds accurate to me, given they're mostly absolutely standard patterns, and sometimes with godawful stuff like truck-driver's key changes that Brian usually has too much taste to do), and since the melodies just follow the chord changes exactly, I can't see him having made any substantive musical contribution to that album's writing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 14:52:17 GMT -5
I remember reading some print interview or article - again I'm sorry that I don't have it referenced or copied - but I'm pretty sure it was from the No Pier Pressure time frame, and it was mainly Joe Thomas and somebody else who I can't remember doing the talking. They were mainly discussing the songwriting and recording process, and they were explaining how as soon as Brian Wilson would enter the studio, they started the tape (or whatever they used) rolling, and basically recorded every little thing Brian said, sang, or played. It could be just a line, a riff, a chord, a simple melody, or...anything. Sometimes they got more, sometimes they got less. And then the musicians and producer and engineer would try to splice these parts together into a semblance of a song.
And I remember reading this article and thinking how sad or how bad things had gotten with Brian's writer's block that he/they had to resort to this kind of...songwriting. I mean, how desperate this looked. And I also got to thinking WHY were they doing this? Was releasing a new album THAT important or necessary? Forget the eventual misleading credits and another album that was destined for disappointment. This is what Brian Wilson writing and recording a song had become.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 15:29:20 GMT -5
I remember reading some print interview or article - again I'm sorry that I don't have it referenced or copied - but I'm pretty sure it was from the No Pier Pressure time frame, and it was mainly Joe Thomas and somebody else who I can't remember doing the talking. They were mainly discussing the songwriting and recording process, and they were explaining how as soon as Brian Wilson would enter the studio, they started the tape (or whatever they used) rolling, and basically recorded every little thing Brian said, sang, or played. It could be just a line, a riff, a chord, a simple melody, or...anything. Sometimes they got more, sometimes they got less. And then the musicians and producer and engineer would try to splice these parts together into a semblance of a song.
And I remember reading this article and thinking how sad or how bad things had gotten with Brian's writer's block that he/they had to resort to this kind of...songwriting. I mean, how desperate this looked. And I also got to thinking WHY were they doing this? Was releasing a new album THAT important or necessary? Forget the eventual misleading credits and another album that was destined for disappointment. This is what Brian Wilson writing and recording a song had become.
Thanks for sharing, Sheriff. That paints a pretty disturbing picture if you ask me. The (carefully manufactured) impression I got when I first saw Beautiful Dreamer in '11 was that Brian had begun to be more productive at songwriting again because he was finally happy and inspired. By contrast, you'd hear horror stories of Landy forcing him to make music, or the Boys dragging him into the studio to make 15BO and you'd think "thank God those days are over!" Now it turns out, not exactly. (No, Im not comparing Landy to Melinda, except in the manufactured Brian credits.) This would explain why his solo stuff just doesn't sound like Brian anymore and why by his own admission he hasn't written a song in decades. They're probably crediting him with songwriting every time he taps away for a few minutes at a piano and then goes off to have lunch. Anyway, I have to agree--is it really that important to release new albums? The man is in his twilight years and has more than earned his legacy. The residuals off the old hits plus their savings ought to be more than enough to live on. Why force the guy to make new stuff if he obviously isn't into it?
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Post by The Cincinnati Kid on Jan 5, 2019 15:42:47 GMT -5
I remember reading some print interview or article - again I'm sorry that I don't have it referenced or copied - but I'm pretty sure it was from the No Pier Pressure time frame, and it was mainly Joe Thomas and somebody else who I can't remember doing the talking. They were mainly discussing the songwriting and recording process, and they were explaining how as soon as Brian Wilson would enter the studio, they started the tape (or whatever they used) rolling, and basically recorded every little thing Brian said, sang, or played. It could be just a line, a riff, a chord, a simple melody, or...anything. Sometimes they got more, sometimes they got less. And then the musicians and producer and engineer would try to splice these parts together into a semblance of a song.
And I remember reading this article and thinking how sad or how bad things had gotten with Brian's writer's block that he/they had to resort to this kind of...songwriting. I mean, how desperate this looked. And I also got to thinking WHY were they doing this? Was releasing a new album THAT important or necessary? Forget the eventual misleading credits and another album that was destined for disappointment. This is what Brian Wilson writing and recording a song had become.
I remember that article and I believe Joe was talking about 1998. That's where all of the "stockpiled" songs came from.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 15:45:30 GMT -5
I remember reading some print interview or article - again I'm sorry that I don't have it referenced or copied - but I'm pretty sure it was from the No Pier Pressure time frame, and it was mainly Joe Thomas and somebody else who I can't remember doing the talking. They were mainly discussing the songwriting and recording process, and they were explaining how as soon as Brian Wilson would enter the studio, they started the tape (or whatever they used) rolling, and basically recorded every little thing Brian said, sang, or played. It could be just a line, a riff, a chord, a simple melody, or...anything. Sometimes they got more, sometimes they got less. And then the musicians and producer and engineer would try to splice these parts together into a semblance of a song.
And I remember reading this article and thinking how sad or how bad things had gotten with Brian's writer's block that he/they had to resort to this kind of...songwriting. I mean, how desperate this looked. And I also got to thinking WHY were they doing this? Was releasing a new album THAT important or necessary? Forget the eventual misleading credits and another album that was destined for disappointment. This is what Brian Wilson writing and recording a song had become.
I remember that article and I believe Joe was talking about 1998. That's where all of the "stockpiled" songs came from. Was it 1998? I thought it was later but your memory is better than mine so I'll go with you. That comes before a lot of BW solo recordings.
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Post by The Cincinnati Kid on Jan 5, 2019 15:51:12 GMT -5
As for NPP, we know the origins of a few songs:
The Right Time - obviously based on Lay Down Burden Runaway Dancer - 1998 Our Special Love - new Somewhere Quiet - Summer Means New Love
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Post by The Cincinnati Kid on Jan 5, 2019 16:04:06 GMT -5
I remember that article and I believe Joe was talking about 1998. That's where all of the "stockpiled" songs came from. Was it 1998? I thought it was later but your memory is better than mine so I'll go with you. That comes before a lot of BW solo recordings. Here's the article, he mentions the Imagination era, but isn't specific to how much was recorded during that time. notes.andrewromano.net/joethomasbeachboys
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Post by andrewhickey on Jan 6, 2019 2:17:22 GMT -5
I remember reading some print interview or article - again I'm sorry that I don't have it referenced or copied - but I'm pretty sure it was from the No Pier Pressure time frame, and it was mainly Joe Thomas and somebody else who I can't remember doing the talking. They were mainly discussing the songwriting and recording process, and they were explaining how as soon as Brian Wilson would enter the studio, they started the tape (or whatever they used) rolling, and basically recorded every little thing Brian said, sang, or played. It could be just a line, a riff, a chord, a simple melody, or...anything. Sometimes they got more, sometimes they got less. And then the musicians and producer and engineer would try to splice these parts together into a semblance of a song.
And I remember reading this article and thinking how sad or how bad things had gotten with Brian's writer's block that he/they had to resort to this kind of...songwriting. I mean, how desperate this looked. And I also got to thinking WHY were they doing this? Was releasing a new album THAT important or necessary? Forget the eventual misleading credits and another album that was destined for disappointment. This is what Brian Wilson writing and recording a song had become.
Thanks for sharing, Sheriff. That paints a pretty disturbing picture if you ask me. The (carefully manufactured) impression I got when I first saw Beautiful Dreamer in '11 was that Brian had begun to be more productive at songwriting again because he was finally happy and inspired. By contrast, you'd hear horror stories of Landy forcing him to make music, or the Boys dragging him into the studio to make 15BO and you'd think "thank God those days are over!" Now it turns out, not exactly. (No, Im not comparing Landy to Melinda, except in the manufactured Brian credits.) This would explain why his solo stuff just doesn't sound like Brian anymore and why by his own admission he hasn't written a song in decades. They're probably crediting him with songwriting every time he taps away for a few minutes at a piano and then goes off to have lunch. Anyway, I have to agree--is it really that important to release new albums? The man is in his twilight years and has more than earned his legacy. The residuals off the old hits plus their savings ought to be more than enough to live on. Why force the guy to make new stuff if he obviously isn't into it? That description only applies to his way of working with Joe Thomas. The collaborations with Andy Paley and Scott Bennett both seem to have been far more organic, and to have had far more active participation by Brian -- and crucially, those collaborations both seem to have been initiated by Brian rather than by anyone else. Brian seems to have had a more-or-less ten year cycle in songwriting for the last few decades -- long periods of no inspiration whatsoever followed by brief flurries of activity when he gets inspired. There was a burst around "Love You", another burst around the time of the Usher sessions in the mid eighties, another one in the nineties with the Paley sessions, and one in 2006 with the material that became "That Lucky Old Sun".
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Post by AGD on Jan 6, 2019 3:43:42 GMT -5
And 2016 ?
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Post by andrewhickey on Jan 6, 2019 4:41:46 GMT -5
Yeah, he seems to have pretty much stopped writing altogether after That Lucky Old Sun
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Post by craigslowinski on Jan 6, 2019 12:08:20 GMT -5
Yeah, he seems to have pretty much stopped writing altogether after That Lucky Old Sun Well, I think "Shelter", "Private Life Of Bill and Sue", and maybe "Strange World" all started out with an idea Brian had which inspired him to actually write a song. In each case, Joe had to step in and write half, but from what I've read, those seem like genuine moments of creative expression. "From There To Back Again", while reportedly new at the time of its recording and release, does sound to have been cobbled together in the manner described above (from various riffs and chord patterns). It's still great, though!
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