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Post by Rick Bartlett on Oct 2, 2021 1:29:48 GMT -5
Ahhh Right!
Yep, I have seen that image somewhere and 'small', but it's a whole different thing seeing it with the black text on the plastic outer. It really opens up the ability to sell the album under 'The Beach Boys', and at the same time, anyone could turf
the plastic outer, and be left with the band almost without an 'image' and a 'name' which was a big part of their problem at the time. Then all the stuff about renaming the band to 'The Beach'. I kinda 'dig it' to be honest! it adds a bit of 'mystery'. Thanks for sharing that Petsite!
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Post by John Manning on Oct 2, 2021 2:12:42 GMT -5
Rick, you want to see it? Here it is. It was for sale but has been sold. Here is the description: [/div]
1970 original 12.25" x 15" test proposed artwork for unreleased "Landlocked" album. Black text on clear plastic. Includes 10 tracks printed at bottom right corner, none of which were ever intended for the album but are there merely as a sample of where the actual titles would have gone. Some light surface scuffs in plastic.
[/quote] I suspect that, if that’s the film readied for printing up, it’d be white text on a black background – ie, reversed in comparison to what’s here. Which is how it’s usually been pictured on bootleg covers etc, I’m given to understand. Anyone know what font was used? |
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Post by John Manning on Oct 2, 2021 2:15:57 GMT -5
Rick, you want to see it? Here it is. It was for sale but has been sold. Here is the description: [/div] 1970 original 12.25" x 15" test proposed artwork for unreleased "Landlocked" album. Black text on clear plastic. Includes 10 tracks printed at bottom right corner, none of which were ever intended for the album but are there merely as a sample of where the actual titles would have gone. Some light surface scuffs in plastic.
I suspect that, if that’s the film readied for printing up, it’d be white text on a black background – ie, reversed in comparison to what’s here. Which is how it’s usually been pictured on bootleg covers etc, I’m given to understand. Anyone know what font was used? [/quote] Answering my my own question – looks like a heavy (black?) version of Futura |
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Post by E on Oct 2, 2021 3:27:43 GMT -5
I like it. It is, of course, the same font as on the boot I have (the Appeal to the Great Spirit one), where I used to think the full stops unnecessary, but this really works against a white field, full stops and all.
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Post by boogieboarder on Oct 2, 2021 9:25:59 GMT -5
So I wonder how that mock up, with the song titles obviously lifted from some other artist’s actual album, end up in an ad in Rolling Stone magazine advertising The Beach Boys next LP.
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Post by Emdeeh on Oct 2, 2021 9:32:17 GMT -5
I agree on the font — Futura Extra Bold (not to be confused with Futura Black which is a very different critter).
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Post by craigslowinski on Oct 2, 2021 9:57:29 GMT -5
The white lettering on black background Landlocked cover mock-up as described by Jack appears on page 143 of David Leaf's book (first edition).
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Post by John Manning on Oct 2, 2021 10:22:42 GMT -5
I agree on the font — Futura Extra Bold (not to be confused with Futura Black which is a very different critter). Yes, that works (though the "T" and ascender on the "h" in "The" are different heights in Futura Extra Bold, which leads me to wonder whether the art dept might have fixed that here).
Also, never crossed my mind before but "Landlocked" is one word, whereas it's been spelt quite deliberately as two words here. Presumeably because "Landlocked" is too long word to use across an LP sleeve in the font size they wanted to use for impact (not Impact, note…).
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Post by Paul JB on Oct 2, 2021 11:12:55 GMT -5
When I quote people on my phone sometimes things get messed up and it looks like I’m quoting myself so I’ll just do this..
John… yes that film pictured a above would be print ready if the end result was white caption on a solid black background.
A couple of other observations. That piece of film would need some provenance proving it was from 1970 or at least giving some strong evidence as of such… without it, that film could have been created last week so in reality it means nothing as far as adding weight to the the claim that an album titled Landlocked was ready to go despite any claims by Riley later on. I’m not saying that is a fact. I’m just saying that piece of film that was ‘sold’ means nothing.
Second, the fact that generic song titles were listed on that mock up weren’t even Beach Boys songs tells mean it’s not anything that was seriously created by any art department for an album that was actually close to coming to fruition. No reason whatsoever to take any time producing something like that. It’s just not done. Again I could be proven wrong but my two cents….
Last, some of you seem to be discussing fonts. I’m only mentioning something political for an example… so please don’t go politics here… but you may recall Dan Rather going on the news with a letter meant to prove GW Bush weaseled out of military service or some such thing. Turned out it was a totally fake letter printed with a font that did not exist at the time it was supposed to have been created. It saying that’s the case here but in no way would I have been gullible enough to buy that film sheet even if it was potentially legit.
My personal belief is that Desper is correct and Riley was exaggerating. Maybe not something just from a fan base but something at best that was just an idea tossed around and quickly dismissed.
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Post by AGD on Oct 2, 2021 11:30:37 GMT -5
So I wonder how that mock up, with the song titles obviously lifted from some other artist’s actual album, end up in an ad in Rolling Stone magazine advertising The Beach Boys next LP. It didn't. No such thing was ever printed in Rolling Stone. Oh, and the titles are taken from The Best Of Michael Parks, released in 1971 on MGM. The "2nd Warner Brothers LP" master was prepared September 1st 1970. The only source for any album called Landlocked is that celebrated epitome of truth and accuracy, Jack Rieley. |
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petsite
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Post by petsite on Oct 2, 2021 11:51:38 GMT -5
When I quote people on my phone sometimes things get messed up and it looks like I’m quoting myself so I’ll just do this.. John… yes that film pictured a above would be print ready if the end result was white caption on a solid black background. A couple of other observations. That piece of film would need some provenance proving it was from 1970 or at least giving some strong evidence as of such… without it, that film could have been created last week so in reality it means nothing as far as adding weight to the the claim that an album titled Landlocked was ready to go despite any claims by Riley later on. I’m not saying that is a fact. I’m just saying that piece of film that was ‘sold’ means nothing. Second, the fact that generic song titles were listed on that mock up weren’t even Beach Boys songs tells mean it’s not anything that was seriously created by any art department for an album that was actually close to coming to fruition. No reason whatsoever to take any time producing something like that. It’s just not done. Again I could be proven wrong but my two cents…. Last, some of you seem to be discussing fonts. I’m only mentioning something political for an example… so please don’t go politics here… but you may recall Dan Rather going on the news with a letter meant to prove GW Bush weaseled out of military service or some such thing. Turned out it was a totally fake letter printed with a font that did not exist at the time it was supposed to have been created. It saying that’s the case here but in no way would I have been gullible enough to buy that film sheet even if it was potentially legit. My personal belief is that Desper is correct and Riley was exaggerating. Maybe not something just from a fan base but something at best that was just an idea tossed around and quickly dismissed. Ok, a few things.
I was NOT saying there was an LP called LANDLOCKED. My point was only that WE as fans did not just pull that name out of thin air. It was fed to us by Jack Riley. And when we found out that there was a reel with Loop de Loop etc, yes WE as fans associated that with reel with the title LANDLOCKED. I am not trying to say LANDLOCKED existed and Desper is wrong. I was trying to say the TITLE came from Jack and not our fevered fan minds.
Now as far as the photo I put up. It was sold thru ROCKAWAY RECORDS that has a pretty good track record for clearing the history of all pieces it sells. Again, IF THIS IS an actual mock up, it was probably requested by Jack from Warners. Nothing more than that. Again, not trying to say A HA, LANDLOCKED DID EXIST! Rick wanted to see the cover and I came across this a few weeks back when I was looking thru Beach Boy items on Rockaway's site.
Here is the link to the sale.
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Post by boogieboarder on Oct 2, 2021 11:53:17 GMT -5
So I wonder how that mock up, with the song titles obviously lifted from some other artist’s actual album, end up in an ad in Rolling Stone magazine advertising The Beach Boys next LP. It didn't. No such thing was ever printed in Rolling Stone. Oh, and the titles are taken from The Best Of Michael Parks, released in 1971 on MGM. Well, memory is subject to errors and manipulation, but I subscribed to Rolling Stone throughout the 1970s, and I'm pretty sure I saw it printed there. |
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Post by AGD on Oct 2, 2021 12:04:45 GMT -5
It didn't. No such thing was ever printed in Rolling Stone. Oh, and the titles are taken from The Best Of Michael Parks, released in 1971 on MGM. Well, memory is subject to manipulation, but I subscribed to Rolling Stone throughout the 1970s, and I'm pretty sure I saw it printed there. That's the first time I've ever heard anyone say this: more tellingly, to date no BB researchers or historians have mentioned it being in RS, even in passing. As ever, I stand to be corrected, and willingly so. Annoyingly, in David Leaf's 1985 book, there's no credit for that photo. Agreed, memory is a funny thing. Back in the day both my parents and I would have sworn that we heard a radio news piece saying that Herbert Lom had died, so much so that when he turned up a few years later on an awards programme, as one voice we all said " but he's dead !!" |
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Post by WillJC on Oct 2, 2021 12:07:33 GMT -5
Artwork print aside, Jack brought up 'Landlocked' as the tentative title for the Surf's Up album on the 1974 BBC radio doc.
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petsite
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Post by petsite on Oct 2, 2021 12:17:04 GMT -5
It didn't. No such thing was ever printed in Rolling Stone. Oh, and the titles are taken from The Best Of Michael Parks, released in 1971 on MGM. Well, memory is subject to errors and manipulation, but I subscribed to Rolling Stone throughout the 1970s, and I'm pretty sure I saw it printed there. It was in David Leaf's book back in the 70s. |
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petsite
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Post by petsite on Oct 2, 2021 12:44:30 GMT -5
Jack discussing CARL AND THE PASSIONS LP:
RC: How do you view Carl And The Passions?
JR: It was a door-stopper. It did not sell. But it’s a triumph artistically. Dennis came up with two really good songs; Cuddle Up is wonderful. The original concept was to do an album called Landlocked, but they were under pressure to tour. There wasn’t time to develop the depth that album would have required.
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Post by AGD on Oct 2, 2021 14:09:53 GMT -5
Well, memory is subject to errors and manipulation, but I subscribed to Rolling Stone throughout the 1970s, and I'm pretty sure I saw it printed there. It was in David Leaf's book back in the 70s. I know. Sadly my original copy disintegrated, but fortunately by then I had the second, updated edition of 1985. |
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Post by Paul JB on Oct 2, 2021 23:04:56 GMT -5
When I quote people on my phone sometimes things get messed up and it looks like I’m quoting myself so I’ll just do this.. John… yes that film pictured a above would be print ready if the end result was white caption on a solid black background. A couple of other observations. That piece of film would need some provenance proving it was from 1970 or at least giving some strong evidence as of such… without it, that film could have been created last week so in reality it means nothing as far as adding weight to the the claim that an album titled Landlocked was ready to go despite any claims by Riley later on. I’m not saying that is a fact. I’m just saying that piece of film that was ‘sold’ means nothing. Second, the fact that generic song titles were listed on that mock up weren’t even Beach Boys songs tells mean it’s not anything that was seriously created by any art department for an album that was actually close to coming to fruition. No reason whatsoever to take any time producing something like that. It’s just not done. Again I could be proven wrong but my two cents…. Last, some of you seem to be discussing fonts. I’m only mentioning something political for an example… so please don’t go politics here… but you may recall Dan Rather going on the news with a letter meant to prove GW Bush weaseled out of military service or some such thing. Turned out it was a totally fake letter printed with a font that did not exist at the time it was supposed to have been created. It saying that’s the case here but in no way would I have been gullible enough to buy that film sheet even if it was potentially legit. My personal belief is that Desper is correct and Riley was exaggerating. Maybe not something just from a fan base but something at best that was just an idea tossed around and quickly dismissed. Ok, a few things.
I was NOT saying there was an LP called LANDLOCKED. My point was only that WE as fans did not just pull that name out of thin air. It was fed to us by Jack Riley. And when we found out that there was a reel with Loop de Loop etc, yes WE as fans associated that with reel with the title LANDLOCKED. I am not trying to say LANDLOCKED existed and Desper is wrong. I was trying to say the TITLE came from Jack and not our fevered fan minds.
Now as far as the photo I put up. It was sold thru ROCKAWAY RECORDS that has a pretty good track record for clearing the history of all pieces it sells. Again, IF THIS IS an actual mock up, it was probably requested by Jack from Warners. Nothing more than that. Again, not trying to say A HA, LANDLOCKED DID EXIST! Rick wanted to see the cover and I came across this a few weeks back when I was looking thru Beach Boy items on Rockaway's site.
Here is the link to the sale.
First, my last post was full of typos… sorry about that. I never said that YOU said Landlocked existed… where are you getting that?! If you read the last part of my message you responded to I think we are both in agreement it was a Riley thing. My main reason for jumping in is that the print ready piece of film that was ‘sold’ reeks of an after the fact fan created thing, based on the image from Leaf’s book that was also created well past 1970 by who knows who or why. In short, I’m not buying for a minute that such a lousy ass album cover design would have even been thought of let alone mocked up before an album master was in the can or even close to being ready. We can’t find any Party album potato chip bags, and we know at least some of those were printed, or any fabled Smile slicks but this piece of junk was in safe hands for 50 years? The link to Rockaway states nothing providing any evidence of where it came from. I would bet an enormous amount of cash that if you dig deeper into the history behind that piece of film, that the best you would get from Rockaway would be verbiage such as “to the best of our knowledge we believe this item to be authentic” or some such thing…which in reality amounts to absolutely nothing. I’m not saying YOU believe it’s authentic, just stating why I think it isn’t. |
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petsite
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Post by petsite on Oct 2, 2021 23:32:44 GMT -5
Yes, I was just trying to say that I never thought there was a (serious) LP named LANDLOCKED. But, being an old dude, I have read too many times (not a slight at Mr. Desper) that WHERE THE HELL DO YOU FANS COME UP WITH THIS STUFF? Even later day fans who write articles say THERE WAS NEVER AN LP CALLED LANDLOCKED. WHERE FANS GET THIS IDEA I WILL NEVER KNOW or words to that effect. I just wanted to say that the title wasn't found by a proctologist with a bright flashlight looking up our collective asses. It came from the Beach Boys camp. That is all this whole thing was about for me. Just wanted that out there. I was reading an online review recently about the FF Box and the LP title LANDLOCKED was mentioned and said it was a nonsense title made up by fans in the 1970s and carried on thru David Leaf's book. Again, no it wasn't. Fans may have been the ones to associate the title with a track listing, but the title was thrown out there by JR.
Its the same as Bruce saying in 1981 that there was never a title THE FADING ROCK GROUP REVIVAL that was going to be used for an LP. But we now know he was wrong. That was one of the titles floating around.
A fuller quote from JR that was on the SS Board:
Landlocked came to me as an album title because it represented departure: it was meant as a demarcation line, separating striped shirted bullshit that had become irrelevant -- an object of public scorn -- from artistry, new creativity, great new songs. We even had a cover: stark bright white san-serif letters on a stark black field. Then I heard the songs, among which were titles like Loop De Loop and others which were, believe it or not, even more forgettable. I was perplexed: no strategy was worth anything without the goods, and the goods were not there. Embarrassed, I met with Mo Ostin at WB, who listened to the tunes and declared "no way."
Toward the end of that meeting, during which Mo explained that WB had already dropped a whole lotta cash by signing them (Mo was a true Brian Wilson fan), I made him a promise: Brian would finish Surfs Up,
we would retitle the album Surfs Up but the cover would be miles away from the beach. Mo gave me encouragement to lobby hard for the solution. By then I had seen how Carl had so much incredible composer
potential within him, trying hard to get out, so a new album began formulating in my head.
The cover was something that caught my eye at an antique shop near Silver Lake. It was a painting and I bought it. Reminded me a bit of the old Brother Records logo, but it was different. Brian flaked out too many times to recall. "There is NO WAY for me to finish that track," he wailed with mock emotion. I reminded him of his promise and he eventually agreed to go into the studio (the living room), where he duly went, albeit with lots of push.
He mentioned LOOP DE LOOP which took us back to that track listing once again.
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Post by boogieboarder on Oct 3, 2021 1:02:25 GMT -5
“In short, I’m not buying for a minute that such a lousy ass album cover design would have even been thought of let alone mocked up before an album master was in the can or even close to being ready.” Well, they do have a history of designing album covers long before an album master was in the can or even close to being ready.  |
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petsite
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Post by petsite on Oct 3, 2021 1:19:19 GMT -5
I always thought it was funny that instead of going to Brian's house, pull the reel that Stephen put together and copy the songs GOOD TIME, I JUST GOT MY PAY, SAN MIGUEL and TIL I DIE, that the guys took the same acetate that Stephen uses in his study video and copied the tracks off of that to play on WPLJ. Bruce even says that the songs they are playing are from that acetate and that the listener will probably hear clicks and pops while the songs are playing, which of course you do. And of course Carl says the songs are NOT from a ALBUM, but they are songs that may be on an ALBUM.
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Post by AGD on Oct 3, 2021 1:57:36 GMT -5
Ed Thrasher claims it was his idea to use the "End Of The Trail" image for the cover. I know who I believe.
Rieley, for all the good he did the band when they most needed it (and he did, no questioning that), was a proven liar & fantasist. Claimed to have worked in the NBC Puerto Rico office... there wasn't one. Claimed to have won a Peabody prize. He didn't.
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petsite
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Post by petsite on Oct 3, 2021 2:08:12 GMT -5
Wait, are you saying that JR is not to be believed in everything he says? Oh my, that totally changes my world view about the group. Wow..............
As they say on TV - THAT WAS SARCASM!
One thing that always bothered me back in the day about SU the LP. I truly love the LP, but I liked SUNFLOWER more. But people would tell me back them lines like BUT BOB, SURF'S UP IS COOL! IT'S HAPPENING AND IT'S TALKING ABOUT REAL ISSUES. As I said back then about all "music with a message"......yawn. Here is why. The message becomes more important than the music. Dylan is credited as a great songwriter, a genus talent. His lyrics were truly special. But his melodies were........there. And repetitious. You could not say that about the Beach Boys. When the Beatles got into elaborate word play, their tunes just seemed to wander. The tightness was gone. It's why I like what they did on GET BACK. That LP brought back tight tracks and still had fun word play. SMILE had that wordplay, but the melodies were on another level, something others could not seem to do.
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Post by filledeplage on Oct 3, 2021 6:33:49 GMT -5
Wait, are you saying that JR is not to be believed in everything he says? Oh my, that totally changes my world view about the group. Wow..............
As they say on TV - THAT WAS SARCASM!
One thing that always bothered me back in the day about SU the LP. I truly love the LP, but I liked SUNFLOWER more. But people would tell me back them lines like BUT BOB, SURF'S UP IS COOL! IT'S HAPPENING AND IT'S TALKING ABOUT REAL ISSUES. As I said back then about all "music with a message"......yawn. Here is why. The message becomes more important than the music. Dylan is credited as a great songwriter, a genus talent. His lyrics were truly special. But his melodies were........there. And repetitious. You could not say that about the Beach Boys. When the Beatles got into elaborate word play, their tunes just seemed to wander. The tightness was gone. It's why I like what they did on GET BACK. That LP brought back tight tracks and still had fun word play. SMILE had that wordplay, but the melodies were on another level, something others could not seem to do.
Very good analysis. 👍 |
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Post by Mopp on Oct 3, 2021 12:21:25 GMT -5
Ed Thrasher claims it was his idea to use the "End Of The Trail" image for the cover. I know who I believe. Rieley, for all the good he did the band when they most needed it (and he did, no questioning that), was a proven liar & fantasist. Claimed to have worked in the NBC Puerto Rico office... there wasn't one. Claimed to have won a Peabody prize. He didn't. I'm even starting to doubt whether Jack Reiley was really Superman.  |
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