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Post by jasonaustin on Jun 6, 2021 2:45:42 GMT -5
Yes, I like the way you let the witnesses narrate through their own words, and did not editorialize - as well as providing a “glossary” of who the characters were. I think it took around an hour - (I am a slow reader.) Thank you. 👍 VDP tells the story in detail, then says he wasn’t there. Such vividly detailed account should be reproduced by any of the other 25 witnesses quoted in JP’s essay. Yet, no one does. And all that comes across is that Dennis was extremely wary (and at one point very much afraid) of Manson. Thank you both for totally getting where I was coming from with this. I tried my best to avoid any sort of judgement calls regarding what seemed plausible or implausible, preferring to include everything so that the reader could determine for themself whose views they found to be credible. Just for the record though, I do agree that Dennis had every reason to be frightened. By August of '69 Manson was desperate for money, as the sad death of Gary Hinman demonstrated all too well. Had Manson not been captured at Barker Ranch in December, I'm near certain he would have continued trying to shake Dennis down, resorting to any means necessary to get what he wanted. Dennis would almost certainly have also been aware of the Hinman murder, as he knew Gary Hinman personally, and he also would have known about the Lotsapoppa Crowe shooting because one of his associates named Bryn or Bryan Lukashevsky was in the room when Lotsapoppa got shot! This information was supposed to be in Bill Scanlon-Murphy's book on the murders, but Scanlon-Murphy never did deliver his tome, hence no quotes for the article. But I'm as certain as can be that Wilson, Melcher and Jakobson were all well aware of who was behind the Tate/ LaBiana killings from the get-go. The big question then is why did they not go straight to the police with that information, or did they? Hmmm...
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Post by Autotune on Jun 6, 2021 11:47:31 GMT -5
The other thing I find puzzling is how could Dennis take the trouble of championing Manson’s “Cease to Exist” had it not been out of sheer conviction. How on Earth could he endure the burden of bringing it to the group, re-writing it, recording it, having the group release it as a single (!) and then on an album if he did not believe there was value in it? He certainly wouldn’t have recorded any of it had he perceived Manson as a menace then. Fear must have come very late in the game.
And here’s one more: we know Manson was bought out of his song. And there’s this other guy who was bought out -I think- during the Sunflower era (was it It’s about time?). Do we know of any other deal of that kind? There must have been others.
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Post by AGD on Jun 6, 2021 12:23:57 GMT -5
The other thing I find puzzling is how could Dennis take the trouble of championing Manson’s “Cease to Exist” had it not been out of sheer conviction. How on Earth could he endure the burden of bringing it to the group, re-writing it, recording it, having the group release it as a single (!) and then on an album if he did not believe there was value in it? He certainly wouldn’t have recorded any of it had he perceived Manson as a menace then. Fear must have come very late in the game. And here’s one more: we know Manson was bought out of his song. And there’s this other guy who was bought out -I think- during the Sunflower era (was it It’s about time?). Do we know of any other deal of that kind? There must have been others. Bob Burchman, original lyricist of "It's About Time". Here's the skinny. link
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Post by ian on Jun 6, 2021 22:50:49 GMT -5
It’s interesting-if you look at the BBs touring history-you see that Dennis was around Los Angeles in June and was than gone for a big chunk of the summer (July 2-17) and August 2-24, so the time he actually lived with them was undoubtedly pretty short…maybe late May and June 1968. But it’s strange that after he no longer lived with the family he decided to give interviews to British music publications (while on tour in December) all about how he lived with 17 girls and his friend the wizard. And either Dennis spoke about it as if he still lived with them or the writer wrote it up that way. Those interviews are bizarre and I really wonder what the BBs and management thought when they saw them! And I’m sure they did-as the office got all the music papers for the guys
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Post by filledeplage on Jun 7, 2021 9:04:34 GMT -5
It’s interesting-if you look at the BBs touring history-you see that Dennis was around Los Angeles in June and was than gone for a big chunk of the summer (July 2-17) and August 2-24, so the time he actually lived with them was undoubtedly pretty short…maybe late May and June 1968. But it’s strange that after he no longer lived with the family he decided to give interviews to British music publications (while on tour in December) all about how he lived with 17 girls and his friend the wizard. And either Dennis spoke about it as if he still lived with them or the writer wrote it up that way. Those interviews are bizarre and I really wonder what the BBs and management thought when they saw them! And I’m sure they did-as the office got all the music papers for the guys Yes - I, too wondered if that time Dennis was there, was highly exaggerated. I saw them in late July of 1969. There was travel coming and going among those gigs; and, there are days off in between.
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Post by ian on Jun 7, 2021 9:12:31 GMT -5
Murders were summer of 69 but Dennis lived with them in summer of 68
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Post by filledeplage on Jun 7, 2021 9:25:37 GMT -5
Murders were summer of 69 but Dennis lived with them in summer of 68 How are those ‘68 timelines? Yes, the murders were in ‘69. His “charm” must have worn out by then.
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Post by ian on Jun 7, 2021 9:33:24 GMT -5
My post above is about summer 1968. BBs gone July 2 to 17 1968 and August 2 to 24 1968
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Post by wontlastforever on Jun 7, 2021 14:51:15 GMT -5
They truly were crazy times - seemingly endless possibilities, new ways of thinking, a cultural revolution; I can empathise with Dennis in this situation. He really did buy into Manson as a credible artist (I wonder how things might have been in an alternate dimension where he had secured the elusive contract) but by the end Manson appeared to represent a very distinct and immediate threat to Dennis and his loved ones. It is a fascinating saga.
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Post by ian on Jun 7, 2021 17:10:04 GMT -5
As much as I love Dennis, I think he was thinking mainly about having wild free love adventures with multiple women and his main fascination with Manson was that he seemed to have so much control over this group.
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Post by ian on Jun 7, 2021 17:21:07 GMT -5
Also, as we all know, the usual story is that Mike was a square and Dennis was “cool” but again imagine you are Mike or even Carl back in 1968 and your cousin/brother is cheating on his wife with teenage runaways/prostitutes who are under the control of some ex-con wannabe Rock star and then you find out that Dennis has let them move in to his mansion and just to be provocative (or a total jerk) he then invites all these freaky ladies to a family vacation, where he undoubtedly was making out with them in view of his family! Then he has an affair with his cousins wife! And everyone hangs out in Europe that December and act like everything is just dandy! Looking at it from that angle-it’s kind of amazing that Mike continued to have any relationship with him. If a cousin of mine cheated with my wife, I probably would not ever have anything further to do with him! To be sure Dennis was undoubtedly a charismatic and talented guy, who I have no doubt was sometimes a blast to hang with but some of his behavior in 1968-69 can’t just be dismissed as just Dennis being Dennis!! He went seriously off the rails for a while.
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Post by Cam Mott on Jun 7, 2021 18:20:26 GMT -5
I have long felt the "square" Boys ought to be praised for having the patience of Job with the so-called "cool" Boys.
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Post by Al S on Jun 7, 2021 18:38:38 GMT -5
I have long felt the "square" Boys ought to be praised for having the patience of Job with the so-called "cool" Boys. Even Stevens - I imagine the cool kids got a lot of lectures about TM, animal husbandry and ecological aftermaths everytime they wanted to rock out!
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petsite
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Post by petsite on Jun 7, 2021 18:48:47 GMT -5
The cool kids were always looked upon as the most creative and frankly most talented in the group. You straights are just mad that we can create all we do while also doing copious amounts of drugs and having sex with everyone that comes along. So too bad.
But here is the thing that was overlooked back then. You don't create like that and party like that and hook up like that if you don't have a tremendous hole you are trying to fill. As the straights tried to put out the fires the cool kids started, I think they realized something is going on behind the scenes making the Wilsons crazy.
Oh, and I will say it here. Mike fights against his upbringing as well. Reading his autobio his Mom was a judgemental bitch. Yet, when she bitch slapped Mike, he would comment that he deserved what she did to him. No wonder the dude was married so many times.
I had someone I knew who had a kid doing drugs. He was not a nice guy and when he was talking about his kid like she was a disappointment, I said CUT HER SOME SLACK. CAUSE IF I HAD YOU FOR A FATHER, I'D BE GETTING HIGH ALL OF THE TIME TOO. I don't think he liked that.
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Post by jasonaustin on Jun 7, 2021 21:45:03 GMT -5
As much as I love Dennis, I think he was thinking mainly about having wild free love adventures with multiple women and his main fascination with Manson was that he seemed to have so much control over this group. Yeah, I think you've got it right here. I believe (as you've stated) Dennis was mainly in it for the girls and that Manson was a means to that end. Not that he wasn't keen to jam with Charlie or try to get him a record deal, but I don't think there was any way Dennis was going to ever become a full-time member of the Family. The folks that ultimately did join up with Manson were largely there out of desperation or because they had nowhere else to go, and clearly those were not issues Dennis had to contend with. There's multiple stories about him flaking on meetings with Manson or the girls, and there's also that illuminating story from Tex about Dennis referring to him as a "sheep" for following the Family out to Spahn. I think given Dennis's ego, it's quite possible he believed that those were his girls living up near Death Valley, and that Manson was along for the ride. I mean he doesn't mention anything about Charlie in that part of the article, just that he (Dennis) lives with 17 girls. Might have been a bit of a power struggle going on there, who knows. But those women were dedicated to Charlie and would cut Dennis out of their lives in a hot second if Manson told them to, as Dennis would find out after the arrest. Regarding the timeline of them cohabitating at the house on Sunset, it had to have been-- at most-- May, June and a couple of weeks in July. Manson and eight of his group were arrested in Ventura County on April 22, released the next day and then spent a few more days at an abandoned house in Topanga before leaving and moving to Spahn, so no way were they at Dennis's any earlier than the May 6, since Dennis would have been out on the first few dates of the Maharishi tour prior to that. Then of course Dennis was also away on tour July 2-17, and he'd moved completely out of the house on or around August 1 to a new house off Highway 1 in Malibu. It's a bit harder to pin down Dennis's whereabouts during the fall and winter of '68. He was apparently sharing the Malibu house with Jakobson, but Gregg was also housesitting Melcher's property from September until the end of the year as Melcher was away in England. Then Jakobson still had his own house where his (pregnant) wife Carol was residing, so it's likely Dennis and Gregg were simply staying wherever then felt like during that period whenever Dennis was in town, including Spahn and later Barker Ranch. Regarding Mike, Adam Webb cites an unnamed source who witnessed Dennis and Mike hanging out and smoking a joint together after the filming of the Beach Boys' Ed Sullivan appearance on October 13, so it seems as though maybe the two of them had squashed it by then, at least for the time being. The rumor I'd always heard is that Mike had slipped Dennis some acid and taken him out on a wild nighttime motorcycle ride as revenge for the infidelity with Suzanne, so maybe he considered the matter dealt with. Again, who knows.
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Post by filledeplage on Jun 8, 2021 10:02:29 GMT -5
As much as I love Dennis, I think he was thinking mainly about having wild free love adventures with multiple women and his main fascination with Manson was that he seemed to have so much control over this group. Yeah, I think you've got it right here. I believe (as you've stated) Dennis was mainly in it for the girls and that Manson was a means to that end. Not that he wasn't keen to jam with Charlie or try to get him a record deal, but I don't think there was any way Dennis was going to ever become a full-time member of the Family. The folks that ultimately did join up with Manson were largely there out of desperation or because they had nowhere else to go, and clearly those were not issues Dennis had to contend with. There's multiple stories about him flaking on meetings with Manson or the girls, and there's also that illuminating story from Tex about Dennis referring to him as a "sheep" for following the Family out to Spahn. I think given Dennis's ego, it's quite possible he believed that those were his girls living up near Death Valley, and that Manson was along for the ride. I mean he doesn't mention anything about Charlie in that part of the article, just that he (Dennis) lives with 17 girls. Might have been a bit of a power struggle going on there, who knows. But those women were dedicated to Charlie and would cut Dennis out of their lives in a hot second if Manson told them to, as Dennis would find out after the arrest. Regarding the timeline of them cohabitating at the house on Sunset, it had to have been-- at most-- May, June and a couple of weeks in July. Manson and eight of his group were arrested in Ventura County on April 22, released the next day and then spent a few more days at an abandoned house in Topanga before leaving and moving to Spahn, so no way were they at Dennis's any earlier than the May 6, since Dennis would have been out on the first few dates of the Maharishi tour prior to that. Then of course Dennis was also away on tour July 2-17, and he'd moved completely out of the house on or around August 1 to a new house off Highway 1 in Malibu. It's a bit harder to pin down Dennis's whereabouts during the fall and winter of '68. He was apparently sharing the Malibu house with Jakobson, but Gregg was also housesitting Melcher's property from September until the end of the year as Melcher was away in England. Then Jakobson still had his own house where his (pregnant) wife Carol was residing, so it's likely Dennis and Gregg were simply staying wherever then felt like during that period whenever Dennis was in town, including Spahn and later Barker Ranch. Regarding Mike, Adam Webb cites an unnamed source who witnessed Dennis and Mike hanging out and smoking a joint together after the filming of the Beach Boys' Ed Sullivan appearance on October 13, so it seems as though maybe the two of them had squashed it by then, at least for the time being. The rumor I'd always heard is that Mike had slipped Dennis some acid and taken him out on a wild nighttime motorcycle ride as revenge for the infidelity with Suzanne, so maybe he considered the matter dealt with. Again, who knows. Manson was the cult-master and his loyal subjects drank his Kool-Aid. There is only one queen in the hive or king at the ranch. That whole 17 women headline - looks to me more like journalistic hyperbole as a headline, and really a false representation. It was not the only place they “squatted.” The dumpster diving for food, outside the supermarkets struck me as pretty gross. They were, and proclaimed themselves, to be “Charlie’s Girls” (hardly Charlie’s Angels) and not Dennis’ girls. They were in service to Charlie - as the “god” of the cult. He appeared to have exerted a type of manipulation and mind-control over his followers.
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Post by Vale on Jun 9, 2021 3:30:48 GMT -5
A lot of people are interested in listening to those tapes, it's part of the history. And those sessions were before the damn facts, bring them to light it's like closing the loop. By now, everbody knows the connection, it's a fact, so my question is, "Why not?"
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Post by AGD on Jun 9, 2021 5:47:49 GMT -5
Because the band say "no". That's why not.
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petsite
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Post by petsite on Jun 9, 2021 6:46:12 GMT -5
From Badman's book. This is true because it is just a restatement of interviews in Rolling Stone in 1971.
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Post by filledeplage on Jun 9, 2021 8:53:04 GMT -5
A lot of people are interested in listening to those tapes, it's part of the history. And those sessions were before the damn facts, bring them to light it's like closing the loop. By now, everbody knows the connection, it's a fact, so my question is, "Why not?" If there is stuff - let his heirs do it if they have or ever acquire possession. I can’t imagine the difficulty of his heirs, trying to “shop” anything to a record company to be released, that he ever touched. He was no Mozart. Maybe some academic group studying sociopaths to find out what “makes them tick” or how childhood abandonment or abuse, could destroy the psyche of an individual, making them turn to violence, and lack fitness to live and function in a civil society. I don’t know if there is an answer. It is like the “I Live with 17 Women” headline with a clean-shaven Dennis and pure sensationalism as though they were Dennis’ women and even post-arrest these “girls” were still sheepishly professing their loyalty and devotion to “Charlie” as though they had been hypnotized. Charlie needed the band, as a steppingstone, but the band did not need Charlie. It might appear as an endorsement if the band releases it. In real time - it was really pretty awful.
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Shawn
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Post by Shawn on Jun 9, 2021 13:12:35 GMT -5
Yes, I like the way you let the witnesses narrate through their own words, and did not editorialize - as well as providing a “glossary” of who the characters were. I think it took around an hour - (I am a slow reader.) Thank you. 👍 VDP tells the story in detail, then says he wasn’t there. Such vividly detailed account should be reproduced by any of the other 25 witnesses quoted in JP’s essay. Yet, no one does. And all that comes across is that Dennis was extremely wary (and at one point very much afraid) of Manson. Thank you both for totally getting where I was coming from with this. I tried my best to avoid any sort of judgement calls regarding what seemed plausible or implausible, preferring to include everything so that the reader could determine for themself whose views they found to be credible. Just for the record though, I do agree that Dennis had every reason to be frightened. By August of '69 Manson was desperate for money, as the sad death of Gary Hinman demonstrated all too well. Had Manson not been captured at Barker Ranch in December, I'm near certain he would have continued trying to shake Dennis down, resorting to any means necessary to get what he wanted. Dennis would almost certainly have also been aware of the Hinman murder, as he knew Gary Hinman personally, and he also would have known about the Lotsapoppa Crowe shooting because one of his associates named Bryn or Bryan Lukashevsky was in the room when Lotsapoppa got shot! This information was supposed to be in Bill Scanlon-Murphy's book on the murders, but Scanlon-Murphy never did deliver his tome, hence no quotes for the article. But I'm as certain as can be that Wilson, Melcher and Jakobson were all well aware of who was behind the Tate/ LaBiana killings from the get-go. The big question then is why did they not go straight to the police with that information, or did they? Hmmm... And even if they didn’t know precisely that Manson was behind the murders they almost certainly would have hada strong inclination that it probably was him. Surely they could have called the police and said, ‘hey, you just just might want to check this guy out as a potential suspect.’ They could have done it anonymously too if they were fearful of retribution.
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Post by jasonaustin on Jun 9, 2021 18:21:59 GMT -5
And even if they didn’t know precisely that Manson was behind the murders they almost certainly would have hada strong inclination that it probably was him. Surely they could have called the police and said, ‘hey, you just just might want to check this guy out as a potential suspect.’ They could have done it anonymously too if they were fearful of retribution. Yes, it seems like the obvious move would have been to place an anonymous tip-off to law enforcement and just sit back and await the arrests. And if you're not inclined to go with Tom O'Neill's theory from his book that essentially law enforcement was aware of what was going on and allowed it to continue because... reasons... then I think the only logical conclusion was that Manson had these guys so spooked that they figured he would find out it was them that tipped off the cops and would exact his retaliation. Outlaw Charlie lived by one rule alone: don't snitch. He's said as much in nearly every prison interview I've ever seen. Overall I think they were just deathly afraid of crossing the guy.
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ryankc
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Post by ryankc on Jun 9, 2021 23:22:57 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing this. I'm not sure if we will ever know the true story of Dennis, Manson, and the rest of the Beach Boys. The idea of Bruce joining in on a Manson orgy is definitely a wild accusation. I wonder if this occurred at the same time of Mike taking a shower and getting confronted by Charlie for leaving the group; because I believe Mike said Bruce was also there. Manson definitely had some relationship with the band, though. Al for sure seems like the most standoffish, followed by Carl. Mike probably felt a mix of intimidation and revulsion toward Manson; though if Dennis was wooed at all the girls, why wasn't Mike? What relationship did Brian have with Manson? Brian was in the hospital at some point in 1968. How long was he absent? I assume this was during the 20/20 sessions; so perhaps Brian's interactions with Manson were limited due to this. There's a lot we just don't know and that's the way they want it. There may also be a way of reframing the relationship after the fact, for posterity sake. This may just be one of those incomplete portions of Beach Boys history because it can be too personal.
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Shawn
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Post by Shawn on Jun 13, 2021 14:45:20 GMT -5
The other thing I find puzzling is how could Dennis take the trouble of championing Manson’s “Cease to Exist” had it not been out of sheer conviction. How on Earth could he endure the burden of bringing it to the group, re-writing it, recording it, having the group release it as a single (!) and then on an album if he did not believe there was value in it? He certainly wouldn’t have recorded any of it had he perceived Manson as a menace then. Fear must have come very late in the game. And here’s one more: we know Manson was bought out of his song. And there’s this other guy who was bought out -I think- during the Sunflower era (was it It’s about time?). Do we know of any other deal of that kind? There must have been others. Something else that seems unclear is why ‘Cease to Exist’ was worked on/recorded by the band without any ‘deal’/clearances beforehand. As I read it, the band dealt with Manson afterwards, and it was more of a ‘well you took Dennis for a ride for X amount of dollars so let’s just call it even, and here’s a few extra trinkets from Dennis’ closet you can have.’ I’m very surprised Manon would have agreed to that, especially as his name would no longer appear with a writing credit on the physical 45 and LP. Surely, he wanted fame most of all and his name on The Beach Boys record would solidify that. Why would he give that up - isn’t that what his ultimate goal was?
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Post by Autotune on Jun 13, 2021 16:19:05 GMT -5
Exactly! And: had the group’s creative well dried up by that point to the extent that they had to turn to a song by the new creepy guy and turn it into an epic production without crediting him? If Dennis couldn’t smell trouble, the other five surely could. It’s puzzling how they went all the way with this tune.
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