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Post by John Manning on Mar 6, 2024 3:15:17 GMT -5
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Post by Rick Bartlett on Mar 6, 2024 4:11:38 GMT -5
Will it come with a translation from Mike Love?
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Post by Rick Bartlett on Mar 6, 2024 11:30:23 GMT -5
I 'kid' of course, and Mike has great respect for 'Van Dyke' as most of us know spite the ridiculous things that have been reinterpreted through the media over the years. Mike makes a simple comment or two and for decades he is left 'accountable' for explanations which still he has to answer for well after he has explained himself. In all seriousness, Mike I think would be able to write a great prelude in Van Dyke's book. I do believe while they might not be on the same page, they two men have great respect for each others work.
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Post by bessieboporbach on Mar 6, 2024 12:10:57 GMT -5
I 'kid' of course, and Mike has great respect for 'Van Dyke' as most of us know spite the ridiculous things that have been reinterpreted through the media over the years. Mike makes a simple comment or two and for decades he is left 'accountable' for explanations which still he has to answer for well after he has explained himself. In all seriousness, Mike I think would be able to write a great prelude in Van Dyke's book. I do believe while they might not be on the same page, they two men have great respect for each others work. The comparison with Mike is actually quite instructive. Mike's book was very illuminating about his role in the Beach Boys' creative process, and particularly the musical influences he brought to bear on their crucial first five years or so. While I understood, as I was reading, that Mike had (and has) an interest in asserting his own importance in the story, and thus I was on guard against omissions and selective emphasis, I nonetheless came away from the book with a stronger sense of admiration for Mike, musically, and a greater understanding of what makes him tick, musically, personally, spiritually, and even politically. Though it has flaws and gaps, I think Mike's book is arguably the single best book ever written about the Beach Boys. Now let's think about Van. VDP has been rather gnomic over the years about his inspirations, influences, artistic goals, and the trajectory of his career. As a consequence, a lot of his work has ended up rather opaque, particularly Song Cycle which I have always found rather coy and closed-off, in an off-putting way. If VDP could find it in him to write (or "tell") a book that was candid and plain-spoken, without the self-consciousness that has followed him around for his entire career, it has the potential to clarify the significance of his work and his role in the culture of pop music, among other things. And I, for one, would really welcome that.
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Post by longtime lurker on Mar 6, 2024 21:23:30 GMT -5
I 'kid' of course, and Mike has great respect for 'Van Dyke' as most of us know spite the ridiculous things that have been reinterpreted through the media over the years. Mike makes a simple comment or two and for decades he is left 'accountable' for explanations which still he has to answer for well after he has explained himself. In all seriousness, Mike I think would be able to write a great prelude in Van Dyke's book. I do believe while they might not be on the same page, they two men have great respect for each others work. The comparison with Mike is actually quite instructive. Mike's book was very illuminating about his role in the Beach Boys' creative process, and particularly the musical influences he brought to bear on their crucial first five years or so. While I understood, as I was reading, that Mike had (and has) an interest in asserting his own importance in the story, and thus I was on guard against omissions and selective emphasis, I nonetheless came away from the book with a stronger sense of admiration for Mike, musically, and a greater understanding of what makes him tick, musically, personally, spiritually, and even politically. Though it has flaws and gaps, I think Mike's book is arguably the single best book ever written about the Beach Boys. Now let's think about Van. VDP has been rather gnomic over the years about his inspirations, influences, artistic goals, and the trajectory of his career. As a consequence, a lot of his work has ended up rather opaque, particularly Song Cycle which I have always found rather coy and closed-off, in an off-putting way. If VDP could find it in him to write (or "tell") a book that was candid and plain-spoken, without the self-consciousness that has followed him around for his entire career, it has the potential to clarify the significance of his work and his role in the culture of pop music, among other things. And I, for one, would really welcome that. Like any other legendary still-living music figure who worked during the 1960s, VDP I'm sure could tell a million fascinating anecdotes about his career, but because America has become such a litigious society and because many of his colleagues are still around, I have serious doubt that his autobiography, when and if it's finally published, will be anything but "candid". I, and I'm sure others here, would love to read a detailed, truthful account of life in the music biz spanning 60+ years, but I can virtually guarantee that ISN'T the book we will be getting from Van. I'll be happy to be proven wrong on this issue, but, current reality being what it is, I don't think I will be.
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Post by newbbfan on Mar 6, 2024 23:04:54 GMT -5
I saw Judy Collins on campus the other day and at least one of the songs she played had featured in its original studio version Van Dyke parks on piano I believe that song was someday soon. What a great career of musical and artistic accomplishment by this gentleman.
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Post by bessieboporbach on Mar 7, 2024 9:56:00 GMT -5
The comparison with Mike is actually quite instructive. Mike's book was very illuminating about his role in the Beach Boys' creative process, and particularly the musical influences he brought to bear on their crucial first five years or so. While I understood, as I was reading, that Mike had (and has) an interest in asserting his own importance in the story, and thus I was on guard against omissions and selective emphasis, I nonetheless came away from the book with a stronger sense of admiration for Mike, musically, and a greater understanding of what makes him tick, musically, personally, spiritually, and even politically. Though it has flaws and gaps, I think Mike's book is arguably the single best book ever written about the Beach Boys. Now let's think about Van. VDP has been rather gnomic over the years about his inspirations, influences, artistic goals, and the trajectory of his career. As a consequence, a lot of his work has ended up rather opaque, particularly Song Cycle which I have always found rather coy and closed-off, in an off-putting way. If VDP could find it in him to write (or "tell") a book that was candid and plain-spoken, without the self-consciousness that has followed him around for his entire career, it has the potential to clarify the significance of his work and his role in the culture of pop music, among other things. And I, for one, would really welcome that. Like any other legendary still-living music figure who worked during the 1960s, VDP I'm sure could tell a million fascinating anecdotes about his career, but because America has become such a litigious society and because many of his colleagues are still around, I have serious doubt that his autobiography, when and if it's finally published, will be anything but "candid". I, and I'm sure others here, would love to read a detailed, truthful account of life in the music biz spanning 60+ years, but I can virtually guarantee that ISN'T the book we will be getting from Van. I'll be happy to be proven wrong on this issue, but, current reality being what it is, I don't think I will be. Oh, I just meant candid about his formative influences, candid about his artistic goals, that sort of thing. The way Mike and Brian were in their "as told to" books. I don't really care that much about the gossip, but I would like to understand him more on an artistic level. He has always been excessively guarded and self-conscious about such things, and sort of fights off those types of questions. (For example, we've gotten far more explication of the lyrics of Smile from Brian than we ever have from VDP, who actually wrote them.) VDP is a bit like Tom Verlaine in a way, where it's not clear that he wanted to be understood. But Tom was also a natural rocker, unlike VDP, so his music at least had a certain type of directness that VDP's never has. Even just lyrically, VDP has that Southern tendency to be attracted to big, mouth-filling words, regardless of whether they are being used in an intelligible way. So a lot of times it becomes difficult to tell whether the verbal ambiguities of his songs are even deliberate or not. And then, leaving the words aside entirely, his music seems to build on juxtapositions and pastiche and it's often difficult for me ( extremely difficult) to work out when he's burlesquing and when he's being sincere. This is the stuff I would like VDP to be candid about in telling his own story. A Van Dyke Parks "portrait of the artist as a young man" would be far more interesting than an angry diatribe about his frustrations with the music industry anyway.
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malibu
Grommet
Posts: 35
Likes: 38
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Post by malibu on Mar 7, 2024 10:39:18 GMT -5
What's the best song VDP ever wrote?
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Post by bessieboporbach on Mar 7, 2024 12:24:45 GMT -5
What's the best song VDP ever wrote? I can't think of any songwriter with any kind of catalogue for whom that is an easy question to answer.
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Post by AGD on Mar 7, 2024 14:23:50 GMT -5
What's the best song VDP ever wrote? For himself? I'd say "Orange Crate Art", with "Clang of the Yankee Reaper" a close second. In collaboration? Has to be "Surf's Up".
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Post by newbbfan on Mar 7, 2024 22:25:56 GMT -5
Columnated ruins Domino is one of the most brilliant lines of poetry of the 20th century. I wouldn't risk making this comment on the harmonic structure of what Brian composed here but it's pure impure and fascinating Gregorian chant.
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Post by filledeplage on Mar 8, 2024 7:50:17 GMT -5
Columnated ruins Domino is one of the most brilliant lines of poetry of the 20th century. I wouldn't risk making this comment on the harmonic structure of what Brian composed here but it's pure impure and fascinating Gregorian chant. That is kind of interesting about Gregorian chant. Has anyone pulled Surf's Up and analyzed the structure? It's possible that there is some influence as music evolves from whatever you have as influence in your formation. Gregorian chant notation looks different because it's written on a staff with 4 lines and 3 spaces and square notes instead of our 5 lines and 4 spaces with a greater range of key signatures. If you went to a Catholic school, (such as Billy Hinsche) you would have learned it before the mid 60s and Vatican II. The nuns would put 4 pieces of chalk in the music staff chalkboard template (instead of 5 for modern music) and draw the square notes in by hand. You'd learn it, of course, because you'd sing it in church along with later written stuff like Christmas carols, written on 5 lines. It was considered part of their music curriculum. I think there was a lot of church and "king" politics involved since a lot probably came from Hebrew and Greek and adapted for the Roman church. It is interesting to wonder about...thanks!
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Post by jk on Mar 8, 2024 9:50:28 GMT -5
Interesting thoughts there, folks. I looked around for some kind of musical analysis of "Surf's Up" that goes deeper than just the chords. I'd seen "Our Prayer" described as "Gregorian", but the following is the only connection I could find between Gregorian chant and "Surf's Up": "There is some precedent for it in Brian’s previous work – You Still Believe in Me uses the same tempo and feel as the first section of Surf's Up, for example, and I Just Wasn't Made For These Times uses much the same rhythm. The coda of Surf's Up could also be seen as an extension of what Brian was doing in the coda of You Still Believe. "The second section has some chromatic melody writing in the 'fullness of the wine' section – Brian had previously used a lot of chromaticism in the chorus of Don't Talk. "The weirdest part in my opinion is the big falsetto leap on 'domino' – pretty uncharacteristic in the scope of Brian's melody writing. I've heard it suggested that it's supposed to have a religious connotation, like a gregorian chant ('domino/domini/domine' was very common in these, being the Latin for 'lord'.)" [ Source] Maybe the poster was thinking of this remark by Philip Lambert on p. 278 of Inside the Music of Brian Wilson: "the voice ascends to a heavenly high F on the word 'domino', evoking the Latin 'Dominus' ('lord'), as if from a Roman [sic] mass."
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Post by filledeplage on Mar 8, 2024 9:58:10 GMT -5
Thinking more Our Prayer...and Brian mentions Gregorian chant in That Same Song.
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Post by AGD on Mar 9, 2024 1:27:29 GMT -5
I'd very much want to read this. Not entirely sure I'd understand all of it, mind.
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Post by filledeplage on Mar 9, 2024 6:04:27 GMT -5
Interesting thoughts there, folks. I looked around for some kind of musical analysis of "Surf's Up" that goes deeper than just the chords. I'd seen "Our Prayer" described as "Gregorian", but the following is the only connection I could find between Gregorian chant and "Surf's Up": "There is some precedent for it in Brian’s previous work – You Still Believe in Me uses the same tempo and feel as the first section of Surf's Up, for example, and I Just Wasn't Made For These Times uses much the same rhythm. The coda of Surf's Up could also be seen as an extension of what Brian was doing in the coda of You Still Believe. "The second section has some chromatic melody writing in the 'fullness of the wine' section – Brian had previously used a lot of chromaticism in the chorus of Don't Talk. "The weirdest part in my opinion is the big falsetto leap on 'domino' – pretty uncharacteristic in the scope of Brian's melody writing. I've heard it suggested that it's supposed to have a religious connotation, like a gregorian chant ('domino/domini/domine' was very common in these, being the Latin for 'lord'.)" [ Source] Maybe the poster was thinking of this remark by Philip Lambert on p. 278 of Inside the Music of Brian Wilson: "the voice ascends to a heavenly high F on the word 'domino', evoking the Latin 'Dominus' ('lord'), as if from a Roman [sic] mass." The "domino" interpretation thing is a virtual Parks' rabbit hole. A "domino" can even be an article of clerical (priest's) clothing - a long, unstructured, hooded coat over a priest's clerical clothing, worn out in public. A verb "domino" usage would come from some Latin form, as lord or ruler, doing the governing. Is it a noun or a verb context? Only Parks can answer that. A tell-all autobiography might be just the place. Some video has him blowing it off very dismissively. I suspect he knows what exactly what the phrase means. His music formation, which is impressive, could have exposed him to all sorts of religious contexts. Looking at wiki indicates all types of country and language connotations. My personal favorite of his is "The Waltz." Youtube has geo banned it. There is a version of the lyrics there, though. It captured that courtship era, as a snapshot, better than anything I've ever seen. And it is written in plain, unambiguous English.
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Post by bessieboporbach on Mar 9, 2024 8:53:58 GMT -5
I'd very much want to read this. Not entirely sure I'd understand all of it, mind. This is the kind of thing I'm leery of. Van is an interesting guy with a unique perspective, a musical polymath with a way with words, but he's not exactly what I'd consider an "intellectual." So the only reason why something he wrote would be difficult to understand would be if it were a deliberate evasion, like so many of the things he's written, sung, and said over the years. I'm not interested in a book of precious VDP tomfoolery. I want to understand what makes him tick -- the way Mike's book helped us understand what makes Mike tick!
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Post by John Manning on Mar 9, 2024 9:18:04 GMT -5
Wouldn’t it be great to have explanations/definitions of “handsome man and baton”/“handsome mannered baton” or “in the great shape of the open country”/“in the great shape of the agricultural”?
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Post by filledeplage on Mar 9, 2024 9:30:26 GMT -5
I'd very much want to read this. Not entirely sure I'd understand all of it, mind. At the risk of being impertinent, Andrew, is he writing in riddles only he understands? Parks is a really smart and versatile guy, great musician, but without the innate "goods" that Brian always brought to the table. People in that movable-feast sphere seemed to always seemed to try to "enlighten" Brian when he (Brian) was the guy with the actual giftedness of cobbling things together. Telling Brian what books to read, or what to do, or whatever.
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Post by AGD on Mar 9, 2024 14:29:02 GMT -5
I'd very much want to read this. Not entirely sure I'd understand all of it, mind. This is the kind of thing I'm leery of. Van is an interesting guy with a unique perspective, a musical polymath with a way with words, but he's not exactly what I'd consider an "intellectual." So the only reason why something he wrote would be difficult to understand would be if it were a deliberate evasion, like so many of the things he's written, sung, and said over the years. I'm not interested in a book of precious VDP tomfoolery. I want to understand what makes him tick -- the way Mike's book helped us understand what makes Mike tick! I'm thinking not so much evasive as allusive.
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felipe
Grommet
Posts: 25
Likes: 11
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Post by felipe on Mar 9, 2024 15:24:03 GMT -5
Columnated ruins Domino is one of the most brilliant lines of poetry of the 20th century. I wouldn't risk making this comment on the harmonic structure of what Brian composed here but it's pure impure and fascinating Gregorian chant. For me the first movement sounds entirely inpired by You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'
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Tilt Araiza
Dude/Dudette
Dominated Ruins Columbo
Posts: 64
Likes: 85
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Post by Tilt Araiza on Mar 9, 2024 16:42:29 GMT -5
I'm thinking not so much evasive as allusive. Yes. The ambiguity of his self-expression is (I think) to get across his ambiguous feelings about his subject matter. Thinking of his contemporaries Randy Newman and Harry Nilsson, they can write flat-out cynical and ironic stuff, alongside more sincere things. Parks's work indicates someone whose feelings are more…well…ambiguous. His love of puns and wordplay allows him to say two or more things at once.
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Post by bessieboporbach on Mar 9, 2024 16:55:03 GMT -5
I'm thinking not so much evasive as allusive. Yes. The ambiguity of his self-expression is (I think) to get across his ambiguous feelings about his subject matter. Thinking of his contemporaries Randy Newman and Harry Nilsson, they can write flat-out cynical and ironic stuff, alongside more sincere things. Parks's work indicates someone whose feelings are more…well…ambiguous. His love of puns and wordplay allows him to say two or more things at once. That's the theory, and it does see expression in things like "The All Golden" and "By the People," which are Parks at his best. But just as often the ambiguity (lexical and syntactic) and obscurity don't so much enable him to express ambivalence as to express...not much of anything at all.
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Post by Cam Mott on Mar 9, 2024 16:55:10 GMT -5
I wonder if some of the imagery in SU is connected to the closure and gala celebration and eventual demolition of the old NY Metropolitan beginning Spring 1966?
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Post by newbbfan on Mar 9, 2024 19:49:43 GMT -5
You know when I refer to Domino I'm really just saying that it's based on the latin word dominum meaning God in sacred medieval music.
As Andrew said vdp is profoundly alluive and I always took that as a sort of tongue-in-cheek reference to Sacred Music and the word dominum in chant and liturgy. I did not mean and could not attest to any more sophisticated reference to the musical form itself of Gregorian chant or of Brian's composition here but obviously it sounds so darn sacred. Doesn't it
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