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Post by donnylang on Jun 28, 2020 14:54:27 GMT -5
Though there is no objective standard for many of these kinds of terms, “Insert” most certainly doesn’t mean “overdub” in any conventional sense. “Insert” (in general) would tend to mean a section that was to be spliced in. There could possibly be some overlap with the term “punch-in” (overdubbing a small section on a multi track to correct a mistake).
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Post by Cam Mott on Jun 28, 2020 16:25:03 GMT -5
I agree with Donny. That is my impression too though I don't remember what evidence there is.
Just on the face of it "insert" and "overdub" are not synonymous.
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Post by zebulan on Jun 28, 2020 22:54:32 GMT -5
dumdangel (Lee) Yeah, I'd love to hear your refined mixes! Not sure what to make of the idea of "part x" refers to something being the xth section recorded that day. I'll wait for other people's opinions on that. Regarding the Chimes Intro, I assume it's an earlier version of the Organ Waltz Intro recorded in March, which ultimately served as an intro to the H&V Verses (you can hear Brian indicate that on the tapes). Wait, when does he indicate that? Are you referring to Brian playing what sounds like a very brief snippet of the Verse at the start of H&V Sessions Vol. 2 track 43? I don't hear him (or anyone else) mention the word "intro". I'm not sure I'd interpret that as meaning the Chimes section was an intro to the first verses, though I definitely think going From Chimes to CWR (or a regular verse) works, so I figure it would probably come before a verse in the song structure. (I'm thinking maybe Bicycle Rider -> Chimes -> CWR.) Yeah, I figured that All Day "bridge" was just a rehearsal, since it's absent from the other takes. I agree that it flows better if it's just a single "verse". On the topic of Bicycle Rider, I think that, if it was part of the single (and you could be right in saying it wasn't), it was likely only the 2nd half (with the vocals) that would have been used, given the way it was spliced onto the verse tape halfway through the 1st half. Maybe the structure could have gone: Verse 1&2 -> cut to Bridge to Indians -> (2nd half of) Bicycle Rider (x2?) -> All Day -> Pickup to 3rd Verse -> CWR -> Three Score -> ? What do you think? I haven't actually tried editing this structure together, but in my head it sounds like it could work. On the other hand, maybe when All Day was introduced, it replaced Bicycle Rider in the song, so the version with Bicycle Rider would have gone something like: Verse 1&2 -> cut to Bridge to Indians -> (2nd half of) Bicycle Rider (x2?) -> Mission Pak -> CWR -> Three Score -> ? or maybe Verse 1&2 -> cut to Bridge to Indians -> (2nd half of) Bicycle Rider (x2?) -> Mission Pak -> Scat Vocal Bridge -> ? With regard to Prelude to Fade being for the a-side, I agree. My current mix for the H&V version from that era goes: Verse 1&2 -> Scat Vocal Bridge -> Piano Ditty (short ending) -> Cantina -> Prelude to Fade -> Piano Ditty The only thing I don't really like about this mix is that there's no CWR. But for a while I couldn't think of a good way to incorporate it without also using Bridge to Indians or Whistling Bridge. The only good place to insert CWR would be after the first Piano Ditty, but if you follow that with Three Score like you usually do, you can't get to Cantina without using Scat Vocal Bridge. But since I'm already using that section to get to Piano Ditty, it would seem like there's no way to fit in CWR. I still think Brian would have avoided the Verse Edit Experiment cut in later mixes, and I think Whistling Bridge is a little redundant with Prelude to Fade in the same track, even if you use it near the start. I also don't think Whistling Bridge -> Piano Ditty sounds nearly as good as Scat Vocal Bridge -> Piano Ditty. But recently, I had an idea: what if you use CWR without Three Score? After all, Brian did just that in the Smiley version. Maybe he did something similar back in February: Verse 1&2 -> Scat Vocal Bridge -> Piano Ditty (short ending) -> CWR -> Cantina -> Prelude to Fade -> Piano Ditty I'm not entirely sure if this would actually flow well (I haven't actually tried editing it together yet), but I just thought I'd bring up the idea. Of course, if Brian did intend to use the Verse Edit Experiment cut, then your Version 6 mix is probably the exact mix he would end up making, give or take Pickup to 3rd Verse. And yeah, I'm completely fine with getting the isolated vocals as separate mono tracks. I can always mix them into stereo later if I want.
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zaval80
Dude/Dudette
Posts: 83
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Post by zaval80 on Jun 29, 2020 2:16:05 GMT -5
Brian was specific in this relation - if he said something was "Part 2", it meant that was the second part in the song, whatever that might have meant at the moment. Not with Brian, it seems. 1. Okay... how do you know this? That’s not the way it’s historically worked out. In Good Vibrations, things were labeled based solely on the order they were recorded in. I’m not going to deny that Cantina wasn’t Part 2 here, cause it is if you look at the mix. It’s the 2nd episode and the ending of the January mix. But based on the logic you’re presenting, you’re gonna be screwed if you wanna try to figure out the March mix, where EVERYTHING is labeled Part 2/Two/II. 2. It seems? Please enlighten us. Do you wish to share your findings with us? I remember the board talking about this in another thread. It might have been my previous Good Vibrations thread. I’m going to ask them again in another thread, but I’m pretty sure Insert does mean overdubs. 1. As for GV, whatever is written on the tape boxes indeed may reflect just the way in which things were recorded, in that order. It is pretty much confusing for the June 16th session, where either were 3 parts to the session, or just 2 parts with continuation of the Part 1 recordings after Part 2, but it's not a big deal. Yet, whatever Brian says on tape is pretty much specific ("Part C", "D", "from the top of A"). And as for H&V, things are more complicated in that there is none of this ("Part C", "D", "from the top of A"), but his directions for "Part Two" are not in contradiction with the listings of the contents on the tape boxes. 2. As for GV again, whatever was marked "Insert", referred to a specific part within the song. One may think it refers to punching things in, as in the overdubbing. But it's clearly seen Brian's standard operation was recording the basics live, re-recording anew when the mistakes were made or he wanted to change something, and then having certain things overdubbed, after the main session or during a new one. |
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Post by Cam Mott on Jun 29, 2020 9:24:02 GMT -5
Couldn't an insert with an overdub explain some of these?
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Jun 30, 2020 17:35:53 GMT -5
Not sure what to make of the idea of "part x" refers to something being the xth section recorded that day. I'll wait for other people's opinions on that. Lol yeah that's probably a good idea. Wait, when does he indicate that? Are you referring to Brian playing what sounds like a very brief snippet of the Verse at the start of H&V Sessions Vol. 2 track 43? I don't hear him (or anyone else) mention the word "intro". I'm not sure I'd interpret that as meaning the Chimes section was an intro to the first verses, though I definitely think going From Chimes to CWR (or a regular verse) works, so I figure it would probably come before a verse in the song structure. (I'm thinking maybe Bicycle Rider -> Chimes -> CWR.) I don't have access to my bootlegs anymore, but that might be what I'm talking about! If you edit it after the end of the Organ Waltz and mix everything so that after the whistle at the end only the droning organ is heard, then you can hard-cut to a H&V verse. And I just call it Intro cause that's what it's known as. It could have worked as the Intro to the song like in the Alternate versions of Good Vibrations. I suspect it was for a section in the song tho. Yeah, I figured that All Day "bridge" was just a rehearsal, since it's absent from the other takes. I agree that it flows better if it's just a single "verse". Me too! Here's the refined H&V Version 3 with All Day cut down like that: Heroes and Villains - Version 3 (NEW)
On the topic of Bicycle Rider, I think that, if it was part of the single (and you could be right in saying it wasn't), it was likely only the 2nd half (with the vocals) that would have been used, given the way it was spliced onto the verse tape halfway through the 1st half. I disagree. Bridge to Indians ends on F7, and Bicycle Rider is in the key of Gm7. Not only is Bicycle Rider a full step up, but it's also in a minor key. Combining Bridge to Indians' F7 with Bicycle Rider's Gm7 would sound bad. We have to pay attention to the F7 they didn't record because it reveals what piece Bridge to Indians was supposed to lead into. The only other piece of music that talks about Indians and is in the key of F is the verse of Do You Like Worms. Here's what your suggesting would sound like: Bridge to Indians & Bicycle Rider
Here's what Bridge to Indians sounds like going into Do You Like Worms: Bridge to Indians & Do You Like Worms
Hear the difference? The F7 wasn't recorded in the master take because they went over 60 takes and Carl suggested they just overdub it onto the next section. The background vocals for Do You Like Worms contain the F7 humm throughout if you listen closely to them. This is a genius move by Brian. What we have here is a song within a song. This is most innovative cut in music since the Bridge in Good Vibrations. I believe a lot of Smile would have worked out this way; songs containing sections of other songs. But in the end, the idea of a song within a song is beyond anything you could include in a single, that is why I believe this mix was definitely intended for only Smile. Maybe the structure could have gone: Verse 1&2 -> cut to Bridge to Indians -> (2nd half of) Bicycle Rider (x2?) -> All Day -> Pickup to 3rd Verse -> CWR -> Three Score -> ? What do you think? I haven't actually tried editing this structure together, but in my head it sounds like it could work. I'd amend that to H&V Verses 1+2 > Bridge to Indians > Do You Like Worms > Bicycle Ridge > unknown. A mix that ends with All Day after Bicycle Rider sounds okay, but I don't think All Day would have been on Smile, considering it's a truncated version of Love to Say Dada. Love to Say Dada, like All Day, does end with a Pickup into Heroes and Villains, so maybe that's how we get back to CWR. Here's the thing tho (and this is personal opinion), I believe Dada is part of the Elements, serving as both Water and Air. If that's the case, then we wouldn't go back into CWR until the end of the Elements. So no, I don't think All Day after Bike Rider works. On the other hand, maybe when All Day was introduced, it replaced Bicycle Rider in the song, so the version with Bicycle Rider would have gone something like: Verse 1&2 -> cut to Bridge to Indians -> (2nd half of) Bicycle Rider (x2?) -> Mission Pak -> CWR -> Three Score -> ? or maybe Verse 1&2 -> cut to Bridge to Indians -> (2nd half of) Bicycle Rider (x2?) -> Mission Pak -> Scat Vocal Bridge -> ? I doubt All Day replace Bike Rider in any way. And I've tried to use Mission Pak as a transition from Bike Rider back into H&V, but it doesn't work because it's in a different key (Gm7 vs G#). I'm pretty sure Mission Pak was meant as a transition into only the Scat Vocal Bridge tho. With regard to Prelude to Fade being for the a-side, I agree. My current mix for the H&V version from that era goes: Verse 1&2 -> Scat Vocal Bridge -> Piano Ditty (short ending) -> Cantina -> Prelude to Fade -> Piano Ditty The only thing I don't really like about this mix is that there's no CWR. But for a while I couldn't think of a good way to incorporate it without also using Bridge to Indians or Whistling Bridge. The only good place to insert CWR would be after the first Piano Ditty, but if you follow that with Three Score like you usually do, you can't get to Cantina without using Scat Vocal Bridge. But since I'm already using that section to get to Piano Ditty, it would seem like there's no way to fit in CWR. I still think Brian would have avoided the Verse Edit Experiment cut in later mixes, and I think Whistling Bridge is a little redundant with Prelude to Fade in the same track, even if you use it near the start. I also don't think Whistling Bridge -> Piano Ditty sounds nearly as good as Scat Vocal Bridge -> Piano Ditty. I don't think the Chorus to Cantina mix sound right. It's an abrupt transition which draws attention to the listener, only to go back into another section that sounds similar; kinda redundant. In Smiley Smile, Brian uses a vocal Bridge which interrupts the Verses like so, "...Heroes and-". It's the part where they go "Dum, bee-doo-bee-doo-wahhh". There's a Smile-era vocal Bridge similar enough that; Bridge to Indians. Why not just use that? This way you can fit in CWR. And yeah, I'm not using the Version 5 mix anymore; it most likely didn't happen. But recently, I had an idea: what if you use CWR without Three Score? After all, Brian did just that in the Smiley version. Maybe he did something similar back in February: Verse 1&2 -> Scat Vocal Bridge -> Piano Ditty (short ending) -> CWR -> Cantina -> Prelude to Fade -> Piano Ditty I'm not entirely sure if this would actually flow well (I haven't actually tried editing it together yet), but I just thought I'd bring up the idea. Of course, if Brian did intend to use the Verse Edit Experiment cut, then your Version 6 mix is probably the exact mix he would end up making, give or take Pickup to 3rd Verse. And yeah, I'm completely fine with getting the isolated vocals as separate mono tracks. I can always mix them into stereo later if I want. The only reason I think Brian uses CWR without Three Score in Smiley Smile was because it was taking the place of Cantina, and he changed it musically to end in a way that would make a decent transition back into the Heroes and Villains theme. I don't think that idea precedes Smiley Smile. And btw, I'll send you the Prelude vocals soon! |
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Post by zebulan on Jun 30, 2020 23:50:31 GMT -5
I see you used the shorter bridge in your All Day mix. I'd forgotten about that one, but it definitely flows better than the one that probably wasn't a bridge in the first place. I'd actually like to hear it without the Had to Phone Ya vocals, since they kind of cover up the end of that middle bit and sound particularly off there. Also, I just tried making a quick mix of my own, and the transition from Bridge to Indians to the 2nd half of BR doesn't work that well even if you don't overlay the final Bridge note over the start of BR. The BR to All Day cut also doesn't sound as good as I thought it would. vocaroo.com/fw7ShipBsshWell, you've convinced me that Bridge to Indians must have been intended to transition to the DYLW verse. I still wonder why he would overdub the BR vocals like he did. Maybe he was intending to change the BR section to use the 2nd half twice, like so: vocaroo.com/F0nE2QzpGqiI think you could even mute some parts of the multitrack for the first go-around and do something like this: vocaroo.com/kF99Ii7sNWHI actually used Secret Smile Disc 1 Track 28 as my source for the "first half" of the chorus there. It's interesting how in that mix, the ba-ba-ba vocals start out at a lower volume and then gradually increase to a certain point. One thing I still don't get is why the master title contained the words "part II". I guess if H&V on the album included several songs, then DYLW could be considered the H&V part 2. That feels like a bit of a stretch... but then again... Chimes is called "Part 3". The Chimes Remake has often been used by fans an intro to Fire; they just fit together so well. Love to Say Dada seems to have connections to water and air themes, and may indeed have been part of The Elements at some point. If DYLW as a whole could be considered H&V part 2 on the album... could The Elements be part 3? Verse 1&2 -> cut to Bridge to Indians -> DYLW -> ... Maybe I'm in Great Shape and Barnyard show up here, followed by: Chimes -> Fire -> ? (maybe the cornucopia Vega-Tables, maybe I Wanna Be Around) -> (early version of) Dada -> Pickup to 3rd Verse (or similar) -> CWR -> Three Score -> ? Anyway, that's all wild speculation, though the knowledge that the DYLW verse must follow Bridge to Indians certainly makes the songs-within-songs-on-the-album hypothesis way more likely than I would have thought a while back. At the very least, there are some great fan mix ideas in here. Thanks for trying out the BR -> Mission Pak idea. I definitely agree that Mission Pak works best going into Scat Vocal Bridge, and considering that Pickup to 3rd Verse also exists (and its purpose is clear from the title), you're probably right. Pickup to 3rd Verse works better for transitioning to CWR, so I guess there's no point for Mission Pak to exist unless it was intended to connect to a different section. Those are both very good points. I still think the long ending of Piano Ditty could work going into Cantina, but you're right that the short ending feels abrupt for no reason if it is followed by Cantina. If Bridge to Indians was initially intended for an album mix, then that would mean Brian didn't drop it from the single because he thought it was too abrupt, because it was never part of the single in the first place. So with that in mind, I now agree that Bridge to Indians could be used in the later H&V versions. Thanks for making this thread. Between this and all the other discussion happening on this board, I now have a much, much clearer idea of what H&V could have been at different points in time. I also have a bunch of new ideas for fan mixes. |
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Jul 1, 2020 14:37:05 GMT -5
I see you used the shorter bridge in your All Day mix. I'd forgotten about that one, but it definitely flows better than the one that probably wasn't a bridge in the first place. I'd actually like to hear it without the Had to Phone Ya vocals, since they kind of cover up the end of that middle bit and sound particularly off there. Sure! I'll include my reconstruction of the track below. The vocals are a little off, I'll admit. All Day - InstrumentalAlso, I just tried making a quick mix of my own, and the transition from Bridge to Indians to the 2nd half of BR doesn't work that well even if you don't overlay the final Bridge note over the start of BR. The BR to All Day cut also doesn't sound as good as I thought it would. vocaroo.com/fw7ShipBsshWell, you've convinced me that Bridge to Indians must have been intended to transition to the DYLW verse. I still wonder why he would overdub the BR vocals like he did. Maybe he was intending to change the BR section to use the 2nd half twice, like so: vocaroo.com/F0nE2QzpGqiI think you could even mute some parts of the multitrack for the first go-around and do something like this: vocaroo.com/kF99Ii7sNWHI actually used Secret Smile Disc 1 Track 28 as my source for the "first half" of the chorus there. It's interesting how in that mix, the ba-ba-ba vocals start out at a lower volume and then gradually increase to a certain point. I'm glad I've convinced you about Bridge to Indians. Now the biggest mystery is to figure out what would follow it. I doubt he would have used Bike Rider twice like that. One thing I still don't get is why the master title contained the words "part II". I guess if H&V on the album included several songs, then DYLW could be considered the H&V part 2. That feels like a bit of a stretch... but then again... Chimes is called "Part 3". The Chimes Remake has often been used by fans an intro to Fire; they just fit together so well. Love to Say Dada seems to have connections to water and air themes, and may indeed have been part of The Elements at some point. If DYLW as a whole could be considered H&V part 2 on the album... could The Elements be part 3? Verse 1&2 -> cut to Bridge to Indians -> DYLW -> ... Maybe I'm in Great Shape and Barnyard show up here, followed by: Chimes -> Fire -> ? (maybe the cornucopia Vega-Tables, maybe I Wanna Be Around) -> (early version of) Dada -> Pickup to 3rd Verse (or similar) -> CWR -> Three Score -> ? Anyway, that's all wild speculation, though the knowledge that the DYLW verse must follow Bridge to Indians certainly makes the songs-within-songs-on-the-album hypothesis way more likely than I would have thought a while back. At the very least, there are some great fan mix ideas in here. Chimes is very peculiar to me. It's in the key of E, and I keep trying to figure out if they meant to sped it up or not. And why does it fall apart/fade out at the end? I've tried adding vocals to it, to help flesh it out more in my mind, and to me, the piece sounds like an extravagant alarm clock waking someone up from a dream. Here's my version of it fleshed out. I came up with the main melody: Heroes and Villains - Part 3 (Alarm Clock)I still think the long ending of Piano Ditty could work going into Cantina, but you're right that the short ending feels abrupt for no reason if it is followed by Cantina. Well, the long version of the Piano Chorus ends on G#, and Cantina starts on F#, which is a full step down. Ultimately, I don't think that transition would work either. Thanks for making this thread. Between this and all the other discussion happening on this board, I now have a much, much clearer idea of what H&V could have been at different points in time. I also have a bunch of new ideas for fan mixes. Thanks for actually listening to and leaving feedback on my mixes! It sucks when most people don't think you can guess what Brian did, cause I think you can actually make pretty educated guesses. It helps to try, then you begin to realize, musically, that certain things work and certain things do not work, so you're left with only a few options. Regarding the March mix, I'm trying to figure out how that version would have gone. I remade the Verse remake, and I've been experimenting with transitions between the Verse Remake and the Organ Waltz, going from one to the other. Below is an edit I made fleshing out those ideas. I'd like to know what you think! Heroes and Villains - March Mix Ideas |
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Post by zebulan on Jul 1, 2020 16:31:57 GMT -5
If Chimes is meant to sound like an alarm clock, then I think it's quite likely that I'm in Great Shape would follow, because "morning, stumble out of bed". (And also, some of the earlier versions of IiGS sound similar to Chimes.) That March H&V recreation sounds pretty neat! The transitions to and from the Chimes Remake are definitely plausible, though I wonder what it means for the overall structure. I'm guessing the song would go something like: Verse -> Chorus -> CWR -> Three Score -> Chimes -> Prelude -> Chorus ...with all sections being remakes. Also, here's a thought I just had: maybe BR was part of the single (and the album), but on the single you got there using Part 1 Tag. I mean, if that section is for H&V and not Wonderful (and I'm really not sure either way), then what was it for? And why would Brian cut out the BR section such the way he did, unless he intended to use just the 2nd half somewhere? Perhaps the H&V single was planned to have something like this: vocaroo.com/nUD0rYtffDFI think that actually works pretty well. Alternatively, you could cut to BR a bit earlier: vocaroo.com/dyQJdbEZ1AkBut I'm not sure that works so well. Besides, I suspect the final notes in Part 1 Tag may be very intentional, seeing as that both versions of the section end on those notes. What do you think? |
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Jul 3, 2020 14:10:04 GMT -5
If Chimes is meant to sound like an alarm clock, then I think it's quite likely that I'm in Great Shape would follow, because "morning, stumble out of bed". (And also, some of the earlier versions of IiGS sound similar to Chimes.) In my mixes, Great Shape is a part of the "Barnyard Suite", and belongs in it's own medley. But I understand where you're coming from with the lyrical similarity. I think that's a smart way to connect things together. Based on lyrics, other pieces it could belong to include Vega-Tables (sleep a lot) and Love to Say Dada (a lucid dream but I don't sleep). I know it's labeled Heroes and Villains on the tape by the engineer, but I must ask this, is there a bootleg where Brian also calls it Heroes and Villains? I seem to recall there is, but if there is not, then I would suspect that piece was for Dada, which was recorded around the same time in December. It could work as a bridge between the two pieces (fender rhodes > chimes > piano part).
That March H&V recreation sounds pretty neat! The transitions to and from the Chimes Remake are definitely plausible, though I wonder what it means for the overall structure. I'm guessing the song would go something like: Verse -> Chorus -> CWR -> Three Score -> Chimes -> Prelude -> Chorus ...with all sections being remakes. First, I must admit that I do believe the March Version would include mostly remakes of previous sections. But I've decided to hold off on predicting it's order until I've figured out the February version fully (I'm still curious about certain choices).
Also, here's a thought I just had: maybe BR was part of the single (and the album), but on the single you got there using Part 1 Tag. I mean, if that section is for H&V and not Wonderful (and I'm really not sure either way), then what was it for? And why would Brian cut out the BR section such the way he did, unless he intended to use just the 2nd half somewhere? Perhaps the H&V single was planned to have something like this: vocaroo.com/nUD0rYtffDFI think that actually works pretty well. Alternatively, you could cut to BR a bit earlier: vocaroo.com/dyQJdbEZ1AkBut I'm not sure that works so well. Besides, I suspect the final notes in Part 1 Tag may be very intentional, seeing as that both versions of the section end on those notes. What do you think? I still think the Part 1 Tag is for Wonderful. The rhythm is perfect and the instrumentation is similar. It can be confusing to figure this stuff out because you'll never truly know for certain where something belongs, but that's why it's important to listen closely to the music. The mix that sounds the best, is the best. In lat December/Early January, Heroes and Villains sessions were held where multiple things that weren't for H&V were recorded, so it's no stretch of the imagination to say that this is another one of those sections.
Brian might have cut out BR like that just to make things easier for him to record. He could still splice the new vocals back into DYLW later. Regarding your mixes, I think Tag to Part 1 was meant to be cut after 4 bars. Sure they keep playing a bit, but that's just how music is recorded; the musicians get in a grove and you keep going for fun. The last note on Tag to Part 1 is G#, which is a full step up from BR's G, so I still don't think it would have worked. I'm still a believer that H&V and BR was for Smile, not a Single.
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Post by zebulan on Jul 3, 2020 20:41:13 GMT -5
Wait, is "a lucid dream, but I don't sleep" a vintage lyric or something? I know the BWPS In Blue Hawaii has the line "I lose a dream, when I don't sleep, I'm slumberin...", but where are you getting that "lucid dream" variant from? Even if it's made up, it's pretty clever, and could definitely fit right in as a SMiLE-era lyric.
Which Dada piano part are you referring to?
I can't find any bootleg versions of the original Chimes, but I did find some more-or-less confirmation that the slow organ bit heard before the Chimes Remake on TSS was in fact, not a separate section, but just part of the main section. On Archaeology Part 1 disc 2 track 10, you can hear the organ bit being played over the main track during a rehearsal take at 0:30.
Yeah, I guess the BR cut-out could have just been to make it easier to overdub. The Part 1 Tag to BR connection is the best one I can come up with that fits the 2nd-half-only hypothesis, but even that doesn't feel amazing. So yeah, going by what sounds the best, BR was definitely only a "part" of H&V on the album, where you could get there from the DYLW verse. Out of curiosity, what are the other sections recorded during H&V sessions that are known (or at least strongly implied) to be for other songs?
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Jul 5, 2020 12:44:09 GMT -5
Wait, is "a lucid dream, but I don't sleep" a vintage lyric or something? I know the BWPS In Blue Hawaii has the line "I lose a dream, when I don't sleep, I'm slumberin...", but where are you getting that "lucid dream" variant from? Even if it's made up, it's pretty clever, and could definitely fit right in as a SMiLE-era lyric. Which Dada piano part are you referring to? I can't find any bootleg versions of the original Chimes, but I did find some more-or-less confirmation that the slow organ bit heard before the Chimes Remake on TSS was in fact, not a separate section, but just part of the main section. On Archaeology Part 1 disc 2 track 10, you can hear the organ bit being played over the main track during a rehearsal take at 0:30. Yeah, I guess the BR cut-out could have just been to make it easier to overdub. The Part 1 Tag to BR connection is the best one I can come up with that fits the 2nd-half-only hypothesis, but even that doesn't feel amazing. So yeah, going by what sounds the best, BR was definitely only a "part" of H&V on the album, where you could get there from the DYLW verse. Out of curiosity, what are the other sections recorded during H&V sessions that are known (or at least strongly implied) to be for other songs? My bad. That was actually me just misremembering the lyric. I might have read that somewhere, but I don't remember. And the Dada piano part I'm referring to is the '66 version of 2nd Day, the one with the cigarette lighter for percussion. The only problem I have with there being a mix with Tag to Part 1 is the fact that is adds another H&V mix to the list, and Bruce or Mike said there were 6, probably including the Smiley Smile version. We already have 5 figured out basically, which means there's only room left for 1 more, and that version was most likely assembled in late February, after the recording of the Part 2 chants and the Chorus and Prelude to Fade. And speaking of recording things out of order, don't forget also that Brian did that with CFM. The order of the song is, Chorus > Verse > Chorus > Verse > Chorus > Tag > Half Chorus. But the vocal sessions included different mixes of song, some starting out with the Tag. It just seems to be how Brian got things done. Other sections labeled as H&V which most likely were not include Do a Lot and Bag of Tricks. |
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on May 10, 2021 10:59:59 GMT -5
Hello again everyone.
I've been working a bit more of my Heroes and Villains mixes, and have come up with several revisions.
Will be posting soon.
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Post by Cam Mott on May 11, 2021 10:03:47 GMT -5
Sheesh, tough room. (shoots his collar Dangerfield-style)
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on May 11, 2021 10:41:00 GMT -5
Sheesh, tough room. (shoots his collar Dangerfield-style) I have a feeling things will be good this time. |
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Post by zebulan on May 11, 2021 15:38:07 GMT -5
I'm excited, but I didn't want to just comment "I'm excited" because it doesn't really add much to the conversation.  The Side B mix you posted here sounds neat and your hypothesis makes sense to me. EDIT: Hey, dumdangel (Lee), have you ever heard Lee Wall's piano demos for H&V? It just occurred to me that the structures you've arrived at for both sides of the single are identical to what he came up with back in late 2018. I remember listening to them a few years ago and thinking "wow, this sounds great, but it's probably not historically accurate"... I think at the time I still thought that the chorus and Cantina couldn't co-exist in a vintage structure. But after much discussion, reading, thinking, and experimenting (with your own mixes and topics in particular being very helpful), I've come to realize that Lee was probably right the whole time. |
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on May 12, 2021 1:24:43 GMT -5
I'm excited, but I didn't want to just comment "I'm excited" because it doesn't really add much to the conversation. The Side B mix you posted here sounds neat and your hypothesis makes sense to me. EDIT: Hey, dumdangel (Lee) , have you ever heard Lee Wall's piano demos for H&V? It just occurred to me that the structures you've arrived at for both sides of the single are identical to what he came up with back in late 2018. I remember listening to them a few years ago and thinking "wow, this sounds great, but it's probably not historically accurate"... I think at the time I still thought that the chorus and Cantina couldn't co-exist in a vintage structure. But after much discussion, reading, thinking, and experimenting (with your own mixes and topics in particular being very helpful), I've come to realize that Lee was probably right the whole time. Thanks zeb! You're always a great one to bounce ideas off of. Maybe if I had more time, we could collaborate on a mix for Smile. I've got a lot of fun ideas I've been working with. Thanks also for liking the Side B mix I posted. You'll have to forgive me if it sounds pretty similar to one of my Side B mixes from last year. I doubt nothing much has changed. That's my go too mix for that stuff. I have heard Lee's videos because I'm the one who made 'em! I guess the cat's out of the bag now. I wanted to keep my anonymity on this forum but that's okay. No harm, no foul. Might as well take credit for these mixes. In regards to Lee being right, I always feel that when they unearth Bruce's time capsule and we finally hear the original H&V, it sound similar and somewhat dissimilar to what I've come up with. It'll make me go, "why didn't I think of that" to "oh that's brilliant". |
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Post by zebulan on May 12, 2021 11:00:33 GMT -5
I have heard Lee's videos because I'm the one who made 'em! I guess the cat's out of the bag now. I wanted to keep my anonymity on this forum but that's okay. No harm, no foul. Might as well take credit for these mixes. In regards to Lee being right, I always feel that when they unearth Bruce's time capsule and we finally hear the original H&V, it sound similar and somewhat dissimilar to what I've come up with. It'll make me go, "why didn't I think of that" to "oh that's brilliant". Well that explains a lot, haha. Say, when is that time capsule supposed to be opened? I've heard about it before, but I can't find any details about it online. |
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Post by John Manning on May 12, 2021 15:45:35 GMT -5
I have heard Lee's videos because I'm the one who made 'em! I guess the cat's out of the bag now. I wanted to keep my anonymity on this forum but that's okay. No harm, no foul. Might as well take credit for these mixes. In regards to Lee being right, I always feel that when they unearth Bruce's time capsule and we finally hear the original H&V, it sound similar and somewhat dissimilar to what I've come up with. It'll make me go, "why didn't I think of that" to "oh that's brilliant". Well that explains a lot, haha. Say, when is that time capsule supposed to be opened? I've heard about it before, but I can't find any details about it online. My vague memory is that Bruce alluded to this on the BBB (yellow) board several years ago. Claimed his acetate had been placed in a time capsule beneath, I think, the foundation stone of some building somewhere. So presumably the building has to come down before the capsule can be accessed, assuming the heavy demolition plant doesn’t damage it in the process. Tbh, I assumed Bruce was having a joke at the expense of the obsessive collectors out there who would have been horrified. |
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Post by zebulan on May 15, 2021 9:05:38 GMT -5
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Post by zebulan on May 19, 2021 23:20:14 GMT -5
What do you think of this: what if the Chimes Remake is the intro to the b-side, leading into Gee? That could explain the "Intro" label associated with it. In fact, perhaps the original Chimes had already been part of the b-side in the same spot? I imagine the March B side could look like this: Chimes Remake -> Gee -> Animals -> Wish Upon a Star Bridge -> V4 Part 2 (Dit Dit Dit) -> Fade Remake That's about 3 and a half minutes long, which seems about right. If Chimes Remake is part of the B side, then we can assume the March a-side probably looks something like: (from here on I'm just going to omit the word "remake"... just assume Chimes and all the verses are remakes except maybe CWR and Prelude, and the chorus is the Feb 27 version) Verse -> Chorus -> CWR -> Three Score -> Scat Vocal Bridge -> Cantina -> Pickup to 3rd Verse (maybe) -> Prelude to Fade -> Chorus However, Chimes Remake does work really well going before and after the Verse Remake, as you've demonstrated in your demo mixes. But if you try and incorporate it into the a-side, I can only think of only two ways that it can work. Here's the first one: Verse -> Chorus -> CWR -> Three Score -> Chimes -> Prelude to Fade -> Chorus The reason I come to this structure is because: - Chimes Remake as a side A intro is too uncommercial
- Chimes Remake after the first Verse section is almost as uncommercial, and the Verse Remake -> Chorus Remake transition sounds too good to give up to my ears, so I don't think Brian would want to lose it.
- Chimes Remake after the Chorus feels unnatural.
- The only thing that makes sense following the chorus in my mind is some kind of verse, and I think CWR is the obvious choice.
- Chimes Remake after Three Score serves a similar function as the Scat Vocal Bridge + Cantina in the Feb 10 mix. It's a sort of "interesting bridge section" before a return to the verses.
Now, there is one other thing that I think could follow the chorus, and that's the Scat Vocal Bridge (or I guess a remake of it), since that's sort of a variant of the verse, and it allows us to keep Cantina. The resulting mix looks like:
Verse -> Chorus -> Mission Pak (maybe) -> Scat Vocal Bridge -> Cantina -> Chimes -> Prelude to Fade -> Chorus
Of course, this mix omits CWR + Three Score. I suppose you could put those in place of Prelude, but then the song lacks the sort of climax that Prelude brings. Even the Smiley Smile version has the CWR + Sunny Down Snuff section which serves the same purpose. And if you put Prelude to Fade on the b-side, then Dit Dit Dit feels unnecessary.
Actually, I guess if you were okay with making the song really long, you could include all the verses, Cantina, and Chimes Remake all at the same time by doing this:
Verse -> Chorus -> Mission Pak (maybe) -> Scat Vocal Bridge -> Cantina -> CWR -> Three Score -> Chimes -> Prelude to Fade -> Chorus
That gives you a Heroes and Villains that, at least according to my estimations, is about 4:45 long, give or take some time depending on how long the fade is. Maybe that's what people were talking about when they spoke of a 5 minute H&V.
Any of this seem plausible to you?
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on May 20, 2021 9:32:56 GMT -5
What do you think of this: what if the Chimes Remake is the intro to the b-side, leading into Gee? That could explain the "Intro" label associated with it. In fact, perhaps the original Chimes had already been part of the b-side in the same spot? I imagine the March B side could look like this: Chimes Remake -> Gee -> Animals -> Wish Upon a Star Bridge -> V4 Part 2 (Dit Dit Dit) -> Fade Remake That's about 3 and a half minutes long, which seems about right. If Chimes Remake is part of the B side, then we can assume the March a-side probably looks something like: (from here on I'm just going to omit the word "remake"... just assume Chimes and all the verses are remakes except maybe CWR and Prelude, and the chorus is the Feb 27 version) Verse -> Chorus -> CWR -> Three Score -> Scat Vocal Bridge -> Cantina -> Pickup to 3rd Verse (maybe) -> Prelude to Fade -> Chorus However, Chimes Remake does work really well going before and after the Verse Remake, as you've demonstrated in your demo mixes. But if you try and incorporate it into the a-side, I can only think of only two ways that it can work. Here's the first one: Verse -> Chorus -> CWR -> Three Score -> Chimes -> Prelude to Fade -> Chorus The reason I come to this structure is because: - Chimes Remake as a side A intro is too uncommercial
- Chimes Remake after the first Verse section is almost as uncommercial, and the Verse Remake -> Chorus Remake transition sounds too good to give up to my ears, so I don't think Brian would want to lose it.
- Chimes Remake after the Chorus feels unnatural.
- The only thing that makes sense following the chorus in my mind is some kind of verse, and I think CWR is the obvious choice.
- Chimes Remake after Three Score serves a similar function as the Scat Vocal Bridge + Cantina in the Feb 10 mix. It's a sort of "interesting bridge section" before a return to the verses.
Now, there is one other thing that I think could follow the chorus, and that's the Scat Vocal Bridge (or I guess a remake of it), since that's sort of a variant of the verse, and it allows us to keep Cantina. The resulting mix looks like:
Verse -> Chorus -> Mission Pak (maybe) -> Scat Vocal Bridge -> Cantina -> Chimes -> Prelude to Fade -> Chorus
Of course, this mix omits CWR + Three Score. I suppose you could put those in place of Prelude, but then the song lacks the sort of climax that Prelude brings. Even the Smiley Smile version has the CWR + Sunny Down Snuff section which serves the same purpose. And if you put Prelude to Fade on the b-side, then Dit Dit Dit feels unnecessary.
Actually, I guess if you were okay with making the song really long, you could include all the verses, Cantina, and Chimes Remake all at the same time by doing this:
Verse -> Chorus -> Mission Pak (maybe) -> Scat Vocal Bridge -> Cantina -> CWR -> Three Score -> Chimes -> Prelude to Fade -> Chorus
That gives you a Heroes and Villains that, at least according to my estimations, is about 4:45 long, give or take some time depending on how long the fade is. Maybe that's what people were talking about when they spoke of a 5 minute H&V.
Any of this seem plausible to you?
Regarding the Chimes Intro from December, I think it's for the Elements. It's in the key of E (one half step down from the Organ Waltz's F), which makes me think it's for either Vega-Tables or the December version of Love to Say Dada. To me, this section sounds like clock bells and such going up and down, which makes me want to use it as either a transition between Vega-Tables and Love to Say Dada, or as the missing bridge in Love to Say Dada. Love to Say Dada conceptually deals with the passage of night into day, so it's very fitting in comes in after we hear the "Sleep a Lot" chant fadeout from Vega-Tables; also very fitting for it to contain a bridge that sounds like an alarm clock. However, I think this was ultimately not used, as come May Love to Say Dada was given the "Walk Child" bridge that's been floating around since Good Vibrations, unable to find a home. Regarding its title, "Heroes and Villains: Part 3", I must confess I have not clue. Firstly, we don't know what Heroes and Villains sounded like at the time in December, which means we're already off to a pretty poor start. I don't think it would have been used in the 1967 Heroes and Villains versions. I don't think those ideas sound good. Chimes is too much of an album cut. Wouldn't sound good on a Single. Regarding the Organ Waltz, I do agree that it might have been used in the March Version of Heroes and Villains. If it did, I imagine it would've replaced Cantina, so I don't think you could have both in the same mix. Your idea or it replacing the Scat Vocal Bridge is interesting! As long as it makes that transition, "Heroes and-", via the whistle than it could work. Regarding the Prelude missing in the March version, it's something I'm concerned with too. If Brian went with the remake of the Verses, then the Prelude wouldn't jell together very well sonically. Crazy idea, but it might have been left out, considered revealing too much to the audience. BUT, I don't think the Verse remake was used so we should be good. Also, I doubt the Prelude would've been on Side B in March due to the Part 4 chant existing. That chant ends with the Whistle Bridge playing the Heroes and Villains Motif, like the Prelude does, and I think that was for Side B to close out the Part 2 Chants. Meaning the only place left to put the Prelude was on Side B. I also believe the key of the Chorus was changed from G# to D# was so that you could interrupt the Prelude with the Chorus as a fadeout (...with the Heroes and - Heroes and Villains, just see what you've done...). One more thing on the Organ Waltz I want to point out. It might not have been intended for the Single at all. It might have been made for Cabin Essence as the Intro for the Elements. Why Cabin Essence? Because it has the same chord progression as it's chorus. Let's take a look at a REAL mix from an acetate from December of Cabin Essence here: Cabin Essence - December Mix
Did you hear that? Just before the Chorus, there was a WHOOSH spliced in between the Verse and Chorus. This was not an accident. This was done on purpose. Consider the lyric of this verse as well: "I want to watch you WIND BLOWN facing". The lyric has something to do with Wind, and we hear a transition reflecting that before the Chorus comes in. I bring this up, because you can use the Organ Waltz doing the same thing in an earlier spot in Cabin Essence: Cabin Essence - Organ Waltz
With this version, we can use the Fire Engine whistle as the transition sound fx to the new chorus in this mix. This connects the lyric's reference of "Light the lamp and Fire mellow" to the actual Fire song. This is how I ultimately use the Organ Waltz in my mixes. I think it would've served as a transition piece from Cabin Essence to The Elements. Which means that the Elements suite would be contained in Cabin Essence essentially. Beginning with Fire and ending with Air. "Light the Lamp, Fire Mellow" and "Wind blown facing". Lyrically, it rhymes and reflects what has come before and what is coming after. I transition back into Cabin Essence after the Elements via Heroes and Villains. Love to Say Dada contains the Air element in 2nd Day, and ends with Pickup to 3rd Verse, which takes us into Children Were Raised, which goes into the Scat Vocal Bridge, going into the longer version of Cantina, ending with the vocalization of the train whistle, leading us into Cabin Essence: Part 2. That's my mix at the moment.
The Elements into Cabin Essence via Heroes and VillainsHere's my opinion of how things went down. Brian had what I think was the BEST version of Heroes and Villains: Part 1 during the Late February stages. The March mix would just have been a late experiment to double check if there was anything else he could do. I think in March he perfected Part 2, but Brian ended up sitting on this mix forever, not feeling entirely satisfied with it. I wish he would've realized (as he did with Good Vibrations), that his original idea for the song was better. But maybe he didn't do that because he didn't like the February version. Who knows. |
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