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Post by monolithic on Jul 30, 2020 17:38:23 GMT -5
Well it's actually quite fascinating because artists some times are not interested in discarded takes and mistakes, while historians are fascinated by process like medieval scholars who are fascinated by annotations in manuscripts and erroneously readings , which editors will discard when creating an edited text for publication. So I can understand that an artist can say, Hey there is a very beautiful version of that song that we willfully and willingly published after 18 hours of trying to get it right and why do you want to publish the failures from that long 18 hour period of our struggle, which we did things that we were obviously not satisfied with. So I can imagine a tension between historical archival work, where sonic archeologists want to chronicle the entire fascinating process of creativity, something which quite passionately support, and the artist's puzzlement as to why things they never wanted to see the light of day should be the subject of study and public consumption. I hope this is a generally fair and really neutral observation of just a basic truism of a tension between 2 theories of aesthetics. I think that's entirely fair and indeed, the only reason some other artists' outtakes have been released is because the artists themselves had no control over the material.
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Post by Autotune on Jul 30, 2020 17:41:31 GMT -5
I’ll further infer that the issue for the party or parties withholding the release are timing and potential market for a box set such as this NOW. No matter how hard people worked on the set and how hard some of us want to get a hold of it, that seems like a legitimate issue.
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Post by Al S on Jul 30, 2020 17:42:09 GMT -5
Well it's actually quite fascinating because artists some times are not interested in discarded takes and mistakes, while historians are fascinated by process like medieval scholars who are fascinated by annotations in manuscripts and erroneously readings , which editors will discard when creating an edited text for publication. So I can understand that an artist can say, Hey there is a very beautiful version of that song that we willfully and willingly published after 18 hours of trying to get it right and why do you want to publish the failures from that long 18 hour period of our struggle, which we did things that we were obviously not satisfied with. So I can imagine a tension between historical archival work, where sonic archeologists want to chronicle the entire fascinating process of creativity, something which quite passionately support, and the artist's puzzlement as to why things they never wanted to see the light of day should be the subject of study and public consumption. I hope this is a generally fair and really neutral observation of just a basic truism of a tension between 2 theories of aesthetics. That's a pretty cool observation, but I'd note: - Medieval scholars and the like may encounter less resistance as the humans they are studying are rather dead and therefore unconsulted - some artists don't want odds and sods, or even completed pieces of work released or re-released due to bad memories/ill feelings. I recently listened to an interview with a guy in charge of a reissue label of obscure rock/pop works and he said in a lot of cases the artists (or their surviving families) were burned in business dealings and it takes a long time for the owners to build trust again - in the case of The Beach Boys, I'd guess it's less about their pimply asses being on display and more about equitable distribution of accolades, or just the inability to make a decision. Not that I'd know jack-shit, just a guess.
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Post by AGD on Jul 30, 2020 17:47:19 GMT -5
I’ll further infer that the issue for the party or parties withholding the release are timing and potential market for a box set such as this NOW. No matter how hard people worked on the set and how hard some of us want to get a hold of it, that seems like a legitimate issue. Interesting theory... but one I very much doubt to be the case.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Jul 30, 2020 18:46:12 GMT -5
Since Howie says it is Completed, my take is that somebody at BRI forgot to do their homework when the liner notes were completed and track listings prepared. Once it was completed, they then took issue with something or another to delay the release.
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Post by ian on Jul 30, 2020 20:29:54 GMT -5
Without weighing into this mess-I will say that Stebbins is friends with Howie and is undoubtedly privy to the real inside info on this box. I’d trust what he says
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Hydra
Kahuna
Posts: 222
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Post by Hydra on Jul 30, 2020 23:14:33 GMT -5
As long as this thing comes out I'm fine with it, I have a feeling it will be worth the wait when we finally get it, it hasn't been cancelled we need to remember that. People have put in way to much hard work for it to just be chucked away
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Post by jiggy22 on Jul 31, 2020 1:48:37 GMT -5
Is there any unreleased Beach Boys comp that got as far as Feel Flows got before being cancelled? The only stuff that comes to mind are the Smile Era sets in the mid-90s, but those were cancelled WAY before final tracklistings, artworks, notes, etc. were finished. Point being, I just can’t see this set just sitting unreleased forever, given how far along it has already come.
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Departed
Former Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2020 2:20:17 GMT -5
Just release it online! If you're gonna lose a profit with no window for a physical release, make it big digital!
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Post by Vale on Jul 31, 2020 4:03:07 GMT -5
Someone supposedly with an 'inside contact' at superdeluxeedition: "Here is the lowdown on why its being delayed/ canceled. there seems to be issues of legality and the final song selection =.the reason being that there were so many different writers of songs at that time.sooo we well have to wait…… and wait …. and wait." Here is the source (check latest comments): www.superdeluxeedition.com/get-in-touch/
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Post by AGD on Jul 31, 2020 4:13:01 GMT -5
What Howie has stated would entirely contradict this allegation.
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Post by Vale on Jul 31, 2020 4:20:55 GMT -5
What Howie has stated would entirely contradict this allegation. I agree. If its status is " Completed. Liners. Tracklisting. Artwork. Mixed. Mastered." it means that we are above those issues, maybe it's just not the right moment to plan a schedule for a release. I just don't know what to think about it.
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Post by Vale on Jul 31, 2020 4:31:06 GMT -5
It's a very frustrating situation for a BB fan, knowing it's ready but temporarily shelved... We need this boxset, we need those music.
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Post by donnylang on Jul 31, 2020 12:53:34 GMT -5
We now know Feel Flows was definitely planned for release at some point in the recent past. Cancelled is something that was planned that will not be taking place. Postponed is something that will take place at a time later than first scheduled.
Howie explicitly indicated that he saved the set a couple times already, which indicates the project's viability has been fragile. He also indicated, not that there is no release date - but that it is not scheduled for release. There is a difference.
While it is of course possible that it may be scheduled for release at some point in the future, all indications point to Feel Flows currently being in a state more similar to cancelled than postponed.
There are about 4 months left for the entire thing to happen - from manufacturing, promotion, release, etc. As of today, I cannot imagine much more time elapsing (maybe a month, two tops) before this could be worked out for release - if that is even on the table at this point.
I don't see how this will be released if it is not released in 2020. They will have to release all of the unreleased 1970 material - a big part of the selling point of a box like this - by 12/31, as a digital release, if the box doesn’t happen. The idea of a 5-CD set happening after that, duplicating a big chunk of the most appealing tracks, is not particularly viable.
My opinion is Feel Flows is not happening unless it happens this year, and it won't happen this year unless it’s scheduled for release very soon. And it's pretty clear that (a) member(s) of the group are the one(s) who are holding it up.
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Post by jiggy22 on Jul 31, 2020 13:34:37 GMT -5
Like I've mentioned, many Beach Boys sets have been shelved for periods of time in the past. I hadn't gotten into the group yet, but Made in California was supposed to come out in 2012, correct? And look what happened, it was delayed for over a year. But it saw release. Just like this one will. Everybody just has to have patience. I don't mind if they "dump" the bare minimum in December to protect the copyrights, while waiting until 2021 to release the set. People suggesting that a copyright dump will "dirty" the set forget just how (unfortunately) irrelevant those are to anybody but us "bottom-feeders" (I believe that to be the correct term Bruce once used to describe the hardcore fans that are into these releases). The 2019 dump got zero promotion, a hypothetical 2020 dump will get zero promotion, but Feel Flows will get promotion.
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Post by donnylang on Jul 31, 2020 13:42:12 GMT -5
Like I've mentioned, many Beach Boys sets have been shelved for periods of time in the past. I hadn't gotten into the group yet, but Made in California was supposed to come out in 2012, correct? And look what happened, it was delayed for over a year. But it saw release. Just like this one will. Everybody just has to have patience. I don't mind if they "dump" the bare minimum in December to protect the copyrights, while waiting until 2021 to release the set. People suggesting that a copyright dump will "dirty" the set forget just how (unfortunately) irrelevant those are to anybody but us "bottom-feeders" (I believe that to be the correct term Bruce once used to describe the hardcore fans that are into these releases). The 2019 dump got zero promotion, a hypothetical 2020 dump will get zero promotion, but Feel Flows will get promotion. I'm not suggesting it will "dirty" the set. But I am suggesting - which is quite logical - it will significantly impact the viability of the set. There are a lot of 1970 recordings which are totally fresh, not just alternate takes. Keep in mind - we're not talking about something that includes "Surfin' USA" for the 50th time ... this is not comparable to Made in California, IMO. It will also change the nature of what the set is, potentially - depending on when it is released. If we're getting into Holland, then it becomes a different concept, track list, etc. My opinion stands that we've got about a month until Feel Flows is relegated to another copyright dump - in compromised form.
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Post by Autotune on Jul 31, 2020 14:19:22 GMT -5
Wasn’t the 1993 GV Box Set released like a year or two after it was supposed to?
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Post by donnylang on Jul 31, 2020 14:41:15 GMT -5
I personally think it's a mistake to reference how things played out with pre-copyright dump releases vs. post.
Since the copyright dumps have been in effect, it's been either/or. There is no precedent for releasing material as a dump, then later including it on physical product - with the possible exception of assuming the three 1969 tracks were planned for Feel Flows. My projection is Feel Flows will be released as a box set, or a download set similar to 1968. If they just dump the unreleased material in some form (alternate takes, etc.) just to get it out in preparation for 2021 - then they run the risk of those previous tracks never getting out at all IMO ... should 2021 not play out either.
If we're talking Beach Boys historical precedent - they have a history of cancelling a lot of projects too (Brother bonus tracks, etc.). In fact, the group has been historically much more guarded and cautious with the Brother-era material than Capitol. I think a big part of this is that the tapes were not leaked out- which means, copyright laws be damned: if no one has ever heard the tapes/will never have access, then they may never come out at all. Like the Manson stuff.
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Post by jiggy22 on Jul 31, 2020 15:32:29 GMT -5
I'm not comparing the two sets based on their contents, I'm comparing them based on the fact that they are both boxsets that have been subjected to delays. And I'd say there are probably more 1971 recordings that are "fresh" compared to 1970 tracks. Like salty mentioned, from 1970, there's: . Untitled #3 (if this even is a unique recording, but the contract sheet is certainly leading me to believe it is) . You Never Give Me Your Money rehearsal . Fred Vail Country Album (based on that YouTube video, however, it seemed as though they were only planning on including one or two of the finished songs on the set, so a release of all tracks wouldn't do much "damage" to the boxset) . Symphony of Frogs (if this even exists lol) . Seasons in the Sun . Sweet and Bitter (like Salty said, this may instead be from 1971) . My Solution
Meanwhile, from 1971, you've got: . This Whole World (Eastern Airline Advert Version) . Ol' Movie . Barnyard Blues (demo/basic track) . On a Clear Day . Won't You Tell Me . Happy Birthday, Brian . Mr. Sandman/Sonata Facile/The Chipmunk Song/God Only Knows . Behold the Night . It's a New Day . I've Got a Friend (Basic track) . Baby Baby . Sea Cruise rehearsal . Ecology (All of My Love/Run, River Run/Piano and Organ duet) . Follow Me to the Sea (Bootleg title given to one of the pieces presented during the quadrophonic sound presentation) . We've Been Here Before . Silly Walls (w/David Sandler) . Awake (Three demos) . Beatrice from Baltimore (Backing track) . In the Country (Basic track; string/vocal overdubs added February 1972)
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Post by jiggy22 on Jul 31, 2020 15:35:06 GMT -5
Wasn’t the 1993 GV Box Set released like a year or two after it was supposed to? Yes. A group formed in 1962 (or 1961, depending on how you look at it) celebrating their 30th anniversary in 1993 should be a good indicator.
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Post by AGD on Jul 31, 2020 15:35:54 GMT -5
Wasn’t the 1993 GV Box Set released like a year or two after it was supposed to? Nope.The Pet Sounds box was.
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Post by AGD on Jul 31, 2020 15:37:35 GMT -5
Wasn’t the 1993 GV Box Set released like a year or two after it was supposed to? Yes. A group formed in 1962 (or 1961, depending on how you look at it) celebrating their 30th anniversary in 1993 should be a good indicator. The 1993 box was celebrating the 30th anniversary of "Surfin' USA" being their first Top 10 single. Seriously.
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Post by donnylang on Jul 31, 2020 17:08:18 GMT -5
I'm not comparing the two sets based on their contents, I'm comparing them based on the fact that they are both boxsets that have been subjected to delays. And I'd say there are probably more 1971 recordings that are "fresh" compared to 1970 tracks. Like salty mentioned, from 1970, there's: . Untitled #3 (if this even is a unique recording, but the contract sheet is certainly leading me to believe it is) . You Never Give Me Your Money rehearsal . Fred Vail Country Album (based on that YouTube video, however, it seemed as though they were only planning on including one or two of the finished songs on the set, so a release of all tracks wouldn't do much "damage" to the boxset) . Symphony of Frogs (if this even exists lol) . Seasons in the Sun . Sweet and Bitter (like Salty said, this may instead be from 1971) . My Solution Meanwhile, from 1971, you've got: . This Whole World (Eastern Airline Advert Version) . Ol' Movie . Barnyard Blues (demo/basic track) . On a Clear Day . Won't You Tell Me . Happy Birthday, Brian . Mr. Sandman/Sonata Facile/The Chipmunk Song/God Only Knows . Behold the Night . It's a New Day . I've Got a Friend (Basic track) . Baby Baby . Sea Cruise rehearsal . Ecology (All of My Love/Run, River Run/Piano and Organ duet) . Follow Me to the Sea (Bootleg title given to one of the pieces presented during the quadrophonic sound presentation) . We've Been Here Before . Silly Walls (w/David Sandler) . Awake (Three demos) . Beatrice from Baltimore (Backing track) . In the Country (Basic track; string/vocal overdubs added February 1972) I'd bet $$$ there's a significant number of 1970 tracks that we don't know about. Look at the tracks on the 1968 releases vs what was known prior. And I'd bet 1970 has even more that was undocumented. Additionally, a holy grail like the "Sail On Sailor" writing session tape (I don't remember the year this happened, just using it as an example) is not covered under the bizarro UK copyright laws unless it's released within 50 years of creation, simply because a different recording of "Sail on Sailor" by The Beach Boys was released. The copyright for a composition is different than a sound recording. My understanding is the copyright is covered for, say a vocal-only version of a session, or even an alternate version from the same recording session once it's released. But a completely different session/version (like Brian's "Sail On Sailor" demo w/ Van Dyke) would not be covered as a sound recording.These distinctions are important to make if we are considering which recordings might be used as copyright dumps vs what might be held back for a physical box. Also important to note when we are talking about "totally unreleased" songs. Particularly relevant to live recordings. If Feel Flows were to include any historically important 1970 live recordings, then will need to be released by end of year and cannot be saved for 2021. To sum up: If you have something like Brian performing at the Whisky w/ the group in 1970 - this is a huge selling point for a box set. If you blow it by putting it on a copyright dump, the viability of the future Feel Flows set is compromised. And you lose the UK copyright for the sound recording of that show if you don't dump it. As a random, made up potential example.
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Post by Mikie on Jul 31, 2020 17:58:47 GMT -5
Jason, one glaring omission from your list. 'Big Sur' 4/4 from the proposed (non-existent) 'Landlocked' album. The song has missed the cut for comp releases through the decades and should finally see the light of day.
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Post by jay on Jul 31, 2020 19:33:20 GMT -5
I wonder if any trace of Dennis singing "Sail On Sailor" has survived? Or his lead in "A Day In The Life of A Tree"?
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