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Post by zebulan on Jul 10, 2020 18:30:40 GMT -5
Is it possible that You're Welcome was actually intended to open the album, or at least one of the sides? The song gets louder as it goes on, not quieter, and the lyrics sound like an invitation or greeting, rather than a curtain bow. It also happens to work great as an intro to Heroes and Villains, which it already has some connection to, being the b-side of the single.
I can't remember the exact quote or source, but I recall someone saying something about there being a "choral amen" at the end of the album following Surf's Up? Someone please correct me if I'm misremembering. But if I'm not, then that description sounds a lot more like Our Prayer than it does You're Welcome. Maybe Our Prayer was moved to the end of the album?
Alternatively, maybe Our Prayer opened one side (leading into Good Vibrations, I presume), and You're Welcome opened the other (leading into Heroes and Villains). In that case, I'm not sure which side would be the first... I guess whichever didn't include Surf's Up.
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Jul 12, 2020 15:33:38 GMT -5
Is it possible that You're Welcome was actually intended to open the album, or at least one of the sides? The song gets louder as it goes on, not quieter, and the lyrics sound like an invitation or greeting, rather than a curtain bow. It also happens to work great as an intro to Heroes and Villains, which it already has some connection to, being the b-side of the single. I can't remember the exact quote or source, but I recall someone saying something about there being a "choral amen" at the end of the album following Surf's Up? Someone please correct me if I'm misremembering. But if I'm not, then that description sounds a lot more like Our Prayer than it does You're Welcome. Maybe Our Prayer was moved to the end of the album? Alternatively, maybe Our Prayer opened one side (leading into Good Vibrations, I presume), and You're Welcome opened the other (leading into Heroes and Villains). In that case, I'm not sure which side would be the first... I guess whichever didn't include Surf's Up. Highly unlikely. Brian says specifically that the Prayer is an intro to the album. The original version of prayer was in C# and was most likely to be followed by H&V. Then Brian decided to include Good Vibrations on Smile so he remade the prayer in D#. You're Welcome ends with the boys harmonizing alone, "Well you're welcome to come". I know it's not as epic as Prayer, but that can fit as a choral amen. It fades in from a fadeout of a previous song. Micheal Vosse or Brian said that about something following the end of Surf's Up, and I'm sure it's You're Welcome. Both were compiled onto the same tapes, with the tapes being labeled as "Surf's Up You're Welcome".
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Post by zebulan on Jul 12, 2020 18:13:31 GMT -5
Well, just because vocal range and sounding-better were the driving reasons for the key change doesn't mean the change didn't take the song order into account. It would be really silly to record an "intro to the album" and not follow it with something in a compatible key. With H&V being the planned lead single, it would make sense to have the album intro be in the same key as that song. But when he decided to change the key to make it easier to sing, I think he chose D# because not only did it sound better, but it would also work well with the other "big single" of the SMiLE era: Good Vibrations.
I'm not saying Brian had already figured out the entire album track order by the time he recorded Our Prayer (nor that that was even a concern at that point), nor that he considered every track listing change that he would have to make to accommodate an Our Prayer key change. But I am saying that, since it was common practice for each album side to open with a single, he had to have been thinking about what song would follow the track whose sole purpose was to set the mood and open the album.
Perhaps the "choral amen" is just something that never made it to tape. I still don't buy it being You're Welcome, though I won't go as far as saying it's impossible for it to be that track.
If anything, I would expect the "choral amen" to sound similar to Our Prayer, in order to give a storybook opening/ending or "coming full circle" kind of feel. In fact, something similar happens in BWPS with the Our Prayer reprise at the end of In Blue Hawaii. Yeah, in general the BWPS track order is way off from being anything plausible for 1966/1967, but the idea of using Our Prayer again at the end (or almost-end, in the case of BWPS) of the album makes a lot of sense to me.
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Jul 13, 2020 9:09:08 GMT -5
Surf's Up and You're Welcome weren't compiled together, they were recorded on the same reel circumstantially. The first attempt at Prayer, the Worms verse and the two Da Da demos are all on a reel together but that doesn't mean there's a musical connection. Tape economy was a thing. Thanks for the correction! Still, we've heard that Surf's Up was to be the last song on the album. You could fade into You're Welcome from Surf's Up. I don't think anyone would realistically describe You're Welcome as a 'choral amen', trying to justify that takes a lot of reaching. Not to say it couldn't have been an album closer at some point... but it isn't a choral amen. Personally, I think it was just supposed to be a single b-side, the way it eventually ended up. I disagree, I think you still can describe it as a choral thing. Like I said, it ends and begins with them harmonizing alone; the instruments are secondary. And the quote specifically was "a choral amen sorta-thing", so it wasn't exactly supposed to be an exact choral thing like Prayer. Brian re-recording Prayer in a different key is self explanatory if you listen to the sessions. It sounded better and was easier for the group to pull off vocally a tone up. Trying to justify that with sequencing into other songs is, again, a reach for 1966 Brian Wilson thinking. Good Vibrations would always have been on the group's next album. I disagree. When Brian rerecorded Wonderful in April, he changed it to be in the key of A so that it would sound better with Vega-Tables.
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Post by aaronsamazing on Nov 6, 2020 16:46:51 GMT -5
Btw guys, I've asked this before, but I'd like to ask again: I'm looking for someone who can share with me a Smile Bootleg that I need to complete my H&V thread. There was a track on one of the bootlegs that had the Sonny down snuff vocals in a manner in which I could isolate them, which I intend to use for the Prelude. However, the flash drive I used to store these bootlegs has been destroyed so I am left without them. I believe this particular bootleg was a combination of Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains sessions. I could use your help! Was it this one? www.discogs.com/The-Beach-Boys-Heroes-And-Vibrations/release/4066602
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ands04
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Post by ands04 on Feb 3, 2022 19:11:05 GMT -5
What do we know about the original lyrics Van Dyke wrote for Smile? Has he ever spoken about how much he wrote, or released any unused snippets outside of "telephone connections" and "East or West Indies," but is that all there is? Particularly, I'm interested in the original lyrics for "Do You Like Worms," before they were set to the 2004 melody. Maybe it's me, but it sounds like Brian/Darian might have simplified them.
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M.I.U. Fan
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Post by M.I.U. Fan on Feb 3, 2022 23:20:51 GMT -5
Was that short version of Prayer a vintage edit? I forget what boot it was on, but it was the usual Prayer except the "aahhhhhhhhhhhh" just before the "hmmmmmm" was edited out.
Is it possible that Brian was going to put this extracted piece of vocal at the end of the record as Vosse said as a sort of reprise to tie the room together? That's essentially what they did on BWPS.
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Feb 6, 2022 20:21:29 GMT -5
Was that short version of Prayer a vintage edit? I forget what boot it was on, but it was the usual Prayer except the "aahhhhhhhhhhhh" just before the "hmmmmmm" was edited out. Is it possible that Brian was going to put this extracted piece of vocal at the end of the record as Vosse said as a sort of reprise to tie the room together? That's essentially what they did on BWPS. Regarding that edit, I think it was just Brian testing out ideas. The first version of OP recorded went that way, and I think he just wanted to see if the new version could go that way too. You can hear them discuss the order during the session.
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Post by dauber on Feb 22, 2022 18:43:20 GMT -5
I distinctly remember that there was a Beach Boys compilation out there that, on the record label, listed "Good Vibrations" as "Good Vibrations (from the air)" and another Smile-era relic/re-recording (don't remember which one) as "(from the [another element])". I thought it was the Warner Bros. compilation Good Vibrations: The Best of The Beach Boys, but a look on discogs (dot) com proves me wrong. I know that I've seen "Good Vibrations (from the air)" listed on some kind of official Beach Boys thingy -- and in fact back in the late '90s or early '00s someone else noticed that and it sparked a lot of discussion and speculation. Anybody know what I'm talking about here??
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M.I.U. Fan
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Post by M.I.U. Fan on Feb 22, 2022 20:04:44 GMT -5
I distinctly remember that there was a Beach Boys compilation out there that, on the record label, listed "Good Vibrations" as "Good Vibrations (from the air)" and another Smile-era relic/re-recording (don't remember which one) as "(from the [another element])". I thought it was the Warner Bros. compilation Good Vibrations: The Best of The Beach Boys, but a look on discogs (dot) com proves me wrong. I know that I've seen "Good Vibrations (from the air)" listed on some kind of official Beach Boys thingy -- and in fact back in the late '90s or early '00s someone else noticed that and it sparked a lot of discussion and speculation. Anybody know what I'm talking about here?? The only place I recall seeing them titled like that was in Timothy White's book.
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Post by AGD on Feb 23, 2022 6:23:52 GMT -5
Byron Preiss book ?
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Post by dauber on Feb 23, 2022 10:45:28 GMT -5
The only place I recall seeing them titled like that was in Timothy White's book. That book was so full of inaccuracies and rambling tangents that I didn't even make it that far, so I didn't see it in that. Never read it.
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Feb 8, 2023 16:50:49 GMT -5
Hi guys, I'm back.
I was wondering if anyone has any ideas as to what the Heroes and Villains section "All Day" could've been. The title alone is confusing because that title implies that it's related to what became the Smiley Smile chant called "Whistle In".
"All day, all night All day, and all through the night"
Anyway what confuses me is that Brian ends up playing a variation of "Love to Say Dada" in F# during the session. He describes that in between the musical pauses the Beach Boys would be doing a bunch of talking; any ideas as to what this section could be in a lyrical sense? "Love to Say Dada" was about a Baby and has themes of the Day and the Night transitions. The name "Dada" is something a baby first speaks when learning to talk. Brian also plays the song on piano going into the Heroes and Villains section "Pickup to 3rd Verse", which would lead into "Children Were Raised", the 3rd verse of Heroes and Villains.
Then the Smile sessions throws a curve ball by releasing a section in the session unheard of. There's bass notes while a higher melody is played by the taped strings. Was this Brian just fiddling or was he rehearsing for a vocal section? In the end he said he had everything recorded that he needed. He then went into the booth to presumably listen to the playback and then explain to the boys what the track would be like.
My questions: How do you guys sequence these sections together, nevermind how they fit in to Heroes and Villains? What could the section be about conceptually? Was that extra snippet I describe just Brian fiddling around or him rehearsing? Was the Master Take included in the Smile sessions?
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Post by AGD on Feb 11, 2023 14:34:38 GMT -5
What do we know about the original lyrics Van Dyke wrote for Smile? Has he ever spoken about how much he wrote, or released any unused snippets outside of "telephone connections" and "East or West Indies," but is that all there is? Particularly, I'm interested in the original lyrics for "Do You Like Worms," before they were set to the 2004 melody. Maybe it's me, but it sounds like Brian/Darian might have simplified them. They're the original lyrics. Neither of them could make out a certain word (I'm guessing they were handwritten), so Brian phoned Van... and that's how he got to be on the project (again). Oh, the word ? "Indians".
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Post by jds on Feb 11, 2023 17:07:00 GMT -5
FWIW, I subscribe to WillJC and Jon's view that the so-called "2004 melody" to Worms is 1966 vintage as claimed, Brian was just singing a countermelody during the sessions.
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Post by bjl on Feb 12, 2023 11:53:02 GMT -5
FWIW, I subscribe to WillJC and Jon's view that the so-called "2004 melody" to Worms is 1966 vintage as claimed, Brian was just singing a countermelody during the sessions. I agree that both melodies are probably vintage, but personally, I think that any countermelody a person would sing at a session as part of establishing the feel in that way has to be a pretty prominent piece of the arrangement, at least as intended at that moment in time!
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Post by Micha on Feb 12, 2023 13:02:48 GMT -5
Well, just because vocal range and sounding-better were the driving reasons for the key change doesn't mean the change didn't take the song order into account. It would be really silly to record an "intro to the album" and not follow it with something in a compatible key. With H&V being the planned lead single, it would make sense to have the album intro be in the same key as that song. But when he decided to change the key to make it easier to sing, I think he chose D# because not only did it sound better, but it would also work well with the other "big single" of the SMiLE era: Good Vibrations. "Prayer" was recorded less than a week before "Good Vibrations" was released - so I would assume it was done with GV to follow it in mind. Another thing: I always thought that "Prayer" is a great intro for an album called "Dumb Angel". "You're Welcome" however works better if the album's title is "SMiLE" - IMHO. Of course that doesn't mean that's what Brian had in mind.
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Post by WillJC on Feb 12, 2023 14:28:12 GMT -5
FWIW, I subscribe to WillJC and Jon's view that the so-called "2004 melody" to Worms is 1966 vintage as claimed, Brian was just singing a countermelody during the sessions. Not necessarily, looking back on it. I think just the absence of a lead being recorded across all those sessions might suggest some indecision on Brian's part about what he wanted to do there. Plus, the BWPS melody, being that low droning two-part harmony, really clashes range-wise with the eventually added backing vocals, and that isn't so typical of how he'd normally arrange that sort of thing. The syllables are rhythmically an awkward fit too. It's an odd one! Darian made it clear that Brian never actually verbalised his intentions, just that it being an old idea was the impression he got from that situation. Who knows, those two verses of lyrics could've been a single verse set to the faster line Brian sang during the session. Without seeing a lyric sheet it's hard to judge.
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Post by dumdangel (Lee) on Feb 18, 2023 18:12:15 GMT -5
Not necessarily, looking back on it. I think just the absence of a lead being recorded across all those sessions might suggest some indecision on Brian's part about what he wanted to do there. Plus, the BWPS melody, being that low droning two-part harmony, really clashes range-wise with the eventually added backing vocals, and that isn't so typical of how he'd normally arrange that sort of thing. The syllables are rhythmically an awkward fit too. It's an odd one! Darian made it clear that Brian never actually verbalised his intentions, just that it being an old idea was the impression he got from that situation. Who knows, those two verses of lyrics could've been a single verse set to the faster line Brian sang during the session. Without seeing a lyric sheet it's hard to judge. So, I have firmly applied my tinfoil hat. I honestly think we can't just assume the lyrics weren't attempted since we're missing a lot of tapes and sessions for H&V, and DYLW was a part of H&V in early January. So that's my take. One thing I don't think enough people mention are the missing lyrics for the end of the song too: the last plymouth rock and the east and west indies section. You'd figure Brian would have at least recorded the East and West Indies stuff when he had the instruments and vocals done for Bicycle Rider in early January. Maybe he already did, or maybe he never did. He already had recorded Bicycle Rider fully in '66, so why again? Also I really don't think the BWPS melody clashes at all with the background vocals. I've recorded myself singing it all many times and they sound wonderful and complete together. They really compliment each other. And now ladies and gentlemen, I will attempt to answer my own questions from my All Day post (maybe people will start talking when they hear how crazy my ideas are). My questions: How do you guys sequence these sections together, nevermind how they fit in to Heroes and Villains?I personally sequence it as this: Longer version of Verse, Short Verse, Pickup to 3rd Verse What could the section be about conceptually?I guess we'll just stick with the Baby and Dada themes. Since this section is so short, I don't think we can attempt to talk about the transition from Day to Night or mention the Water and Air elements. I assume the "talking" in the pauses would be the boys either sounding like babies calling "Dada" or them trying to get the baby to say "Dada". Was that extra snippet I describe just Brian fiddling around or him rehearsing?I'm leaning toward it being real. I'm highly suspicious it's a rehearsal of an earlier version of the Whistle In chant found on Smiley Smile. Was the Master Take included in the Smile sessions?From what I understand, No. That's why I'm suspicious.
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