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Post by The Cap'n on Feb 8, 2019 12:16:12 GMT -5
It doesn't seem that weird. That it is apparently his favorite song doesn't mean it is his favorite vocal. Maybe what he likes about it is the melody, or the arrangement, or something else.
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 8, 2019 12:26:16 GMT -5
It doesn't seem that weird. That it is apparently his favorite song doesn't mean it is his favorite vocal. Maybe what he likes about it is the melody, or the arrangement, or something else. That is true - except - from what we know - The Beatles had a private audience to hear Pet Sounds. GOK with Carl on lead, I would argue would be his frame of reference. He didn't listen to sheet music that he sat down to play (although, later that would be possible for him to do and look at it from the construction of the song) - I took it - to be entirely a response as a "fan" of the song, which he would have seen Carl perform live in Paris in 1967 with The Maharishi sitting with two Beatles on either side according to Al Jardine - in his Storytellers show. Maybe Paul was just being tactful not to mention Carl, whose presence is still acknowledged. It never ceases to amaze me - the applause that the Dennis video and Carl still get - decades after they are gone. That YouTube where The Beatles were in attendance, is in the thread.
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 8, 2019 12:35:53 GMT -5
It doesn't seem that weird. That it is apparently his favorite song doesn't mean it is his favorite vocal. Maybe what he likes about it is the melody, or the arrangement, or something else. Paul praised the lead vocal in GOK, something like it's very soulful, emotional, pure etc. I remember he did praise it & said as much in previous reply. Why, then, for Pete's sake, not say the name? 2 filledeplage's point "Why? To make Brian sad?" Paul likely liked it since 60s, when he heard Pet Sounds. & didn't say anything when Carl was alive how Carl indeed sang his favorite song well, the name. RR - so I can analogize this to "Let it Be" - where Paul sings "Mother Mary comes to me." Who is this Mary? I think for years most people thought it was the Christian faith religious "Mary" - but no - and many years later - I learned much later on some Beatles' TV program, that it was Paul's late mother, Mary, who died when he was a teenager, IIRC. He felt the presence of his mother, even in "times of trouble - mother Mary comes to me." Something meaningful - that is just not completely expressed. Of course, no one but Paul can know why he did not mention Carl, by name. I like to think that he was just being kind in Brian's company.
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Post by The Cap'n on Feb 8, 2019 12:36:03 GMT -5
OK, if he praised the lead vocal specifically, then my speculation doesn't work. Luckily for me, I don't care either way. What's the difference whether he says Carl's name? To me, none. If it matters to you why that is, I wish you success in your quest to find out (though I doubt you will).
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Post by The Cap'n on Feb 8, 2019 12:55:14 GMT -5
That wasn’t intended to be snippy.
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 8, 2019 13:27:14 GMT -5
RR - so I can analogize this to "Let it Be" - where Paul sings "Mother Mary comes to me." Who is this Mary? I think for years most people thought it was the Christian faith religious "Mary" - but no - and many years later - I learned much later on some Beatles' TV program, that it was Paul's late mother, Mary, who died when he was a teenager, IIRC. He felt the presence of his mother, even in "times of trouble - mother Mary comes to me." Something meaningful - that is just not completely expressed. Of course, no one but Paul can know why he did not mention Carl, by name. I like to think that he was just being kind in Brian's company. This is fair. Thank you. Still doesn't make sense. When I like the song, the lead vocal, I mention the name coz it's, well, y'know, obvious thing to do? Don't people when they like the song's vocal by default mention the vocalist's name? Sometimes - the BB songs have split leads. And you hear similar voices (because they are siblings) so maybe their music is a little unique. Lots of "doubling" going on.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2019 22:45:18 GMT -5
RR - so I can analogize this to "Let it Be" - where Paul sings "Mother Mary comes to me." Who is this Mary? I think for years most people thought it was the Christian faith religious "Mary" - but no - and many years later - I learned much later on some Beatles' TV program, that it was Paul's late mother, Mary, who died when he was a teenager, IIRC. He felt the presence of his mother, even in "times of trouble - mother Mary comes to me." Something meaningful - that is just not completely expressed. Of course, no one but Paul can know why he did not mention Carl, by name. I like to think that he was just being kind in Brian's company. This is fair. Thank you. Still doesn't make sense. When I like the song, the lead vocal, I mention the name coz it's, well, y'know, obvious thing to do? Don't people when they like the song's vocal by default mention the vocalist's name? With the exception of Brian I don't think I've heard Paul mention the names of any other Beach Boys at all in any interview. I'm not sure what the significance is to that (or If there is any) but you'd be surprised how many people who you would think should know better just assume it's Brian singing lead. Same with "Good Vibrations" too. For what it's worth, I recently read an interview with Paul where he mentions being The Shadows' biggest fan and then proceeds to forget a few of their names, despite having met them all many times. Hey, it happens.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Feb 10, 2019 9:23:36 GMT -5
Maybe around Pet Sounds when Carl's voice was more prominently featured, and was on God Only Knows which was a top 10 hit, on the flip side (B side) of Wouldn't It Be Nice - that his amazing voice got everyone's attention. It did not take long - seeing him live, performing it under his signature blue lights for that song, that he came out of the shadow of his brothers, and came into his own with more leads, and tremendous stage presence, for both the ballads and edgier stuff. What's puzzling is Paul cites GOK his favorite song of all time, praises the singer, yet didn't name Carl "Great singing by Carl Wilson". Or did he? Frankly, to my ears, Carl doesn't seem to've changed his voice since his leads/ lines in "Pom Pom Play Girl"/ "Summertime Blues" et al. It's still the same voice as in GOK, difference being GOK is ballad & he sings it as such, that's it. It's funny that people despite praising Carl plenty, still went with WIBN to win the PS survivor. Doesn't make sense. ^Few random points regarding Carl/ GOK. Not sure what Carl’s voice and picking WIBN have to do with each other? Carl is my favorite singer, WIBN is my favorite song. Both things can exist together.
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 10, 2019 9:42:23 GMT -5
With the exception of Brian I don't think I've heard Paul mention the names of any other Beach Boys at all in any interview. I'm not sure what the significance is to that (or If there is any) but you'd be surprised how many people who you would think should know better just assume it's Brian singing lead. Same with "Good Vibrations" too. For what it's worth, I recently read an interview with Paul where he mentions being The Shadows' biggest fan and then proceeds to forget a few of their names, despite having met them all many times. Hey, it happens. Interesting - it looks like musicians don't pay attention to these details and don't care to remember as we, casual not famous listeners, do generally. RR - it is a foregone conclusion. At some point or another each BB has acknowledged the outstanding vocal talent Carl possessed. Even when he was terminally ill, he sang from his toes. And, well. No one has forgotten Carl in the “in real-time” BB fan world. I feel badly for those who never had the chance to see him sing, live with such respect for the music. Even 20 years after his death, whether on other artists’ work such as Chicago’s “Wishin’ You Were Here” or GOK, he was never half-assed in his delivery that I ever saw him. He sang “in the moment” - and if you wonder about that - find his live performances. It should answer all your questions.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 18:08:11 GMT -5
RR - it is a foregone conclusion. At some point or another each BB has acknowledged the outstanding vocal talent Carl possessed. Even when he was terminally ill, he sang from his toes. And, well. No one has forgotten Carl in the “in real-time” BB fan world. I feel badly for those who never had the chance to see him sing, live with such respect for the music. Even 20 years after his death, whether on other artists’ work such as Chicago’s “Wishin’ You Were Here” or GOK, he was never half-assed in his delivery that I ever saw him. He sang “in the moment” - and if you wonder about that - find his live performances. It should answer all your questions. This is Endless Harmony, I'm Beach Boys Fan here. I meant generally, casual listeners care more about these details than musicians. Yes, Carl isn't forgotten in BB fan world. Didn't disagree with it. I think Paul could probably point out the musicians on a Little Richard record or one of the other early rock and roll records he loved while growing up. It seems that he and the other Beatles are a little hazy in their memories of what their peers did. I have a recording of John Lennon jamming with his Double Fantasy musicians and chiding them for playing songs that came out after 1965. He says "I can't jam on anything that came out after 1965!" Those guys were scholars on the music they grew up with, less so on anything that came out when they were in the thick of their own careers.
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Post by lonelysummer on Feb 11, 2019 1:39:01 GMT -5
What You Do to Me is a fairly simple song, but Carl just sings the hell out of it. If someone wants to know why he is so praised as a lead singer, this wouldn't be a bad place to start.
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 11, 2019 8:51:12 GMT -5
What You Do to Me is a fairly simple song, but Carl just sings the hell out of it. If someone wants to know why he is so praised as a lead singer, this wouldn't be a bad place to start. And he did it with the BB’s as well. Yes they have performed their solo material over the years.
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Post by lonelysummer on Feb 12, 2019 23:31:45 GMT -5
My impression is that Carl was very appreciated when he was touring with the Beach Boys - appreciated as the best singer in the live band, the musical director, and a great guitar player.
But I still feel like he is nearly forgotten today. Dennis still gets talked about a lot - for his songwriting and singing, although, oddly, not so much for his drumming. And people love the kind of tragic story where a gifted musician is derailed into a life of drug and alcohol abuse, and serial infidelity.
I guess Carl lead a comparatively dull life, his bout with drug addiction was relatively brief; maybe the most dramatic chapter in his life was the battle with the draft board; but that's not the kind of story that seems to capture the attention of fans, or the general public. We know next to nothing about his divorce from Annie; in the few comments from her after his death, she still spoke lovingly of him.
It's easy to take for granted the guy who always shows up, always gives his best on stage, always cares about the performance. But the Beach Boys sure found out how much they needed him when he left in 1981.
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Post by kds on Feb 13, 2019 8:47:16 GMT -5
My impression is that Carl was very appreciated when he was touring with the Beach Boys - appreciated as the best singer in the live band, the musical director, and a great guitar player. But I still feel like he is nearly forgotten today. Dennis still gets talked about a lot - for his songwriting and singing, although, oddly, not so much for his drumming. And people love the kind of tragic story where a gifted musician is derailed into a life of drug and alcohol abuse, and serial infidelity. I guess Carl lead a comparatively dull life, his bout with drug addiction was relatively brief; maybe the most dramatic chapter in his life was the battle with the draft board; but that's not the kind of story that seems to capture the attention of fans, or the general public. We know next to nothing about his divorce from Annie; in the few comments from her after his death, she still spoke lovingly of him. It's easy to take for granted the guy who always shows up, always gives his best on stage, always cares about the performance. But the Beach Boys sure found out how much they needed him when he left in 1981. Attending shows by Brian, Mike, and Al over the past several years, I've never gotten the impression that Carl's in any way forgotten. He usually gets a mention at each show, and the visuals at Mike's and Al's shows feature Carl prominently.
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 13, 2019 9:20:54 GMT -5
My impression is that Carl was very appreciated when he was touring with the Beach Boys - appreciated as the best singer in the live band, the musical director, and a great guitar player. But I still feel like he is nearly forgotten today. Dennis still gets talked about a lot - for his songwriting and singing, although, oddly, not so much for his drumming. And people love the kind of tragic story where a gifted musician is derailed into a life of drug and alcohol abuse, and serial infidelity. I guess Carl lead a comparatively dull life, his bout with drug addiction was relatively brief; maybe the most dramatic chapter in his life was the battle with the draft board; but that's not the kind of story that seems to capture the attention of fans, or the general public. We know next to nothing about his divorce from Annie; in the few comments from her after his death, she still spoke lovingly of him. It's easy to take for granted the guy who always shows up, always gives his best on stage, always cares about the performance. But the Beach Boys sure found out how much they needed him when he left in 1981. Attending shows by Brian, Mike, and Al over the past several years, I've never gotten the impression that Carl's in any way forgotten. He usually gets a mention at each show, and the visuals at Mike's and Al's shows feature Carl prominently. Absolutely not forgotten and I think that the Touring Band (as well as Brian's/Al's band) take all of Carl's vocals very seriously - as they know how big the shoes are to fill. And they know (or should) that the bulk of their fans saw Carl multiple times, live, and have that standard hanging over their heads like a sword.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Feb 18, 2019 10:56:13 GMT -5
What You Do to Me is a fairly simple song, but Carl just sings the hell out of it. If someone wants to know why he is so praised as a lead singer, this wouldn't be a bad place to start. It's terribly arranged song but yes, Carl saves it to the point you get over its backing track/ production. You may think it is terribly arranged, but I am betting that it is similar to what the writer would have done. This song was written by John Hall of the band Orleans. It very much has the feel of "You're Still The One", which was a very big hit for the band in the mid-70s.
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Post by Will/P.P. on Feb 18, 2019 18:44:15 GMT -5
John Hall Band did the song in 1981. John was still fairly popular, and one of the other tracks, "Crazy", almost made the Billboard Top 40. Carl probably heard the All Of the Above album, and just liked it. Carl's arrangement is very similar, but of course the song benefits from "The Voice"! Like much of Carl's solo material, it was better live.
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 18, 2019 19:28:45 GMT -5
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Post by monolithic on Feb 22, 2019 7:02:19 GMT -5
If Carl is underappreciated at all, it is perhaps because he wasn't credited as much as he should have been for his production work on those early 70s albums. I know it's been said that he wasn't happy about this himself, and a fairer credit might well have been "Produced by Carl Wilson and The Beach Boys" on those records. Carl really did do sterling work at that time, including helping Brian to finish some of his songs, and that can be overlooked at times.
I think Carl's contribution is generally understood by most fans though, and knowledgeable music fans also know that he was the best singer in the band.
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 22, 2019 9:09:04 GMT -5
If Carl is underappreciated at all, it is perhaps because he wasn't credited as much as he should have been for his production work on those early 70s albums. I know it's been said that he wasn't happy about this himself, and a fairer credit might well have been "Produced by Carl Wilson and The Beach Boys" on those records. Carl really did do sterling work at that time, including helping Brian to finish some of his songs, and that can be overlooked at times. I think Carl's contribution is generally understood by most fans though, and knowledgeable music fans also know that he was the best singer in the band. Probably one of the best arguments for flying in his vocals on live shows. Easily the best singer - capable of wide range, from rock, ballads and a little soul. Incomparably sterling vocal quality. Watching the Perth Australia 1978 show on youtube. Charles Lloyd and the big brassy sound and Al and Mike in Greek fishermen's caps, and Dennis telling Elton John to "eat his heart out..."
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Post by Beach Boys Fan on Feb 22, 2019 9:34:13 GMT -5
If Carl is underappreciated at all, it is perhaps because he wasn't credited as much as he should have been for his production work on those early 70s albums. I know it's been said that he wasn't happy about this himself, and a fairer credit might well have been "Produced by Carl Wilson and The Beach Boys" on those records. Carl really did do sterling work at that time, including helping Brian to finish some of his songs, and that can be overlooked at times. I think Carl's contribution is generally understood by most fans though, and knowledgeable music fans also know that he was the best singer in the band. ''Knowledgeable music fans'', you're sure? Or maybe it's just opinion?
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Post by filledeplage on Feb 22, 2019 9:53:42 GMT -5
If Carl is underappreciated at all, it is perhaps because he wasn't credited as much as he should have been for his production work on those early 70s albums. I know it's been said that he wasn't happy about this himself, and a fairer credit might well have been "Produced by Carl Wilson and The Beach Boys" on those records. Carl really did do sterling work at that time, including helping Brian to finish some of his songs, and that can be overlooked at times. I think Carl's contribution is generally understood by most fans though, and knowledgeable music fans also know that he was the best singer in the band. ''Knowledgeable music fans'', you're sure? Or maybe it's just opinion? RR - to whom would you compare Carl's voice? A person can technically sing and hit the notes perfectly but be devoid of emotion and good delivery. Is it like comparing Frank Sinatra to Perry Como? Perry always wins that one. Two handsome Italian guys. Different styles. But in the context of rock...I saw the world (the scores of audiences I saw) stand still, when Carl opened his mouth to sing GOK.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Feb 22, 2019 12:07:50 GMT -5
It would be kind of tough to call yourself a fan of the band post- 1965 without enjoying the sound that Carl Wilson provided. Vocally, it is his band from that point forward. And that goes for studio work, as well as in the live setting.
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Post by monolithic on Feb 22, 2019 18:28:01 GMT -5
drbeachboy (Dirk) But it's not what poster monolithic said. They said "knowledgeable" fans know that Carl was the best singer in the band. To me, Al is/ was the best. Does it make me non-knowledgeable? Weird. What you say is completely different than what monolithic stated. You simply say to enjoy Carl's vocal contributions & it's his band forward. Respectively, I do (& didn't say I don't, I like Carl as the next fan) & agree/ recognize that he was great leader. But I don't think he was the best singer. Which shouldn't weirdly mean I'm somehow not "knowledgeable". That's what puzzled me.The point is, I think Al was the best singer in the band AND simultaneously I like Carl's voice, vocals in songs. Can't these 2 things co-exist? Hey, you are entitled to your opinion that Al was the best singer. Al has and has always had a very fine voice. If you look at my comment though, it was split into two by the comma in the middle of the sentence. "I think Carl's contribution is generally understood by most fans though, and knowledgeable music fans also know that he was the best singer in the band. " The first half refers to Beach Boys fans and the second half refers to "knowledgeable music fans" as in general music fans. Therefore not the hardcore and not the people who would post on this board. For example, I was thinking of a poll in one of the music mags that had both Brian and Carl in the top 100 singers of all time. The magazine made the point though that some of the uninitiated mistakenly believed that Brian had sung on songs like God Only Knows and Good Vibrations. So my comment about knowledgeable fans was in reference to general music fans, but those who have actually taken the time to check the vocal credits.
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Post by drbeachboy (Dirk) on Feb 22, 2019 19:15:09 GMT -5
drbeachboy (Dirk) But it's not what poster monolithic said. They said "knowledgeable" fans know that Carl was the best singer in the band. To me, Al is/ was the best. Does it make me non-knowledgeable? Weird. What you say is completely different than what monolithic stated. You simply say to enjoy Carl's vocal contributions & it's his band forward. Respectively, I do (& didn't say I don't, I like Carl as the next fan) & agree/ recognize that he was great leader. But I don't think he was the best singer. Which shouldn't weirdly mean I'm somehow not "knowledgeable". That's what puzzled me.The point is, I think Al was the best singer in the band AND simultaneously I like Carl's voice, vocals in songs. Can't these 2 things co-exist? My comment was a general one. From Smiley Smile onward, Carl sang lead or shared lead on a majority of the tracks. Listen to any concert and you will hear Carl singing many leads. He and Mike sharing the bulk of the heavy lifting. While I also think Al is a good singer, his voice was/is not as versatile as was Carl’s. God Only Knows, Good Vibrations, Darlin’, Friends, This Whole World, Surf’s Up, Mess of Help..., to the ending of All This Is That. That is some versatile and amazing singing.
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