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Post by jk on Jun 6, 2023 4:59:26 GMT -5
This could be a nonsense syllable from a doo wop song, a mood projected by a performer or composer, the use of a particular instrument -- anything really, except for actual cover versions of other people's songs.
Something that struck me the other day while listening to M.I.U. for the umpteenth time is the similarity between the intro of "Wontcha Come Out Tonight?" and that of Neil Sedaka's 1962 US #1, "Breaking Up Is Hard To Do":
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Post by Rick Bartlett on Jun 6, 2023 8:06:40 GMT -5
I cannot see for the life of me, how the Kingston Trio version of 'Wreck Of The John B' influenced Brian so much. It's exhilarating in every way.
The song itself is very plain, not much going for it, and Brian turns it into a masterpiece of music, even without vocals! I mean, just imagine handing Brian a bunch of other tunes around this time with his mindset just what he could have done? Is there anything Brian could not have turned to Gold at this point in time? 'Sloop John B' is a perfect example of why Brian Wilson is considered one of the best in the business on many levels.
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Post by boogieboarder on Jun 6, 2023 9:06:31 GMT -5
Perfect time for this thread, because I just heard “Underwater” by The Frogmen, and was struck by how much The Beach Boys “Do It Again” came from this.
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Post by filledeplage on Jun 6, 2023 9:13:06 GMT -5
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Post by jk on Jun 8, 2023 5:18:50 GMT -5
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Post by jk on Jun 9, 2023 3:26:30 GMT -5
Frank Sinatra looms large among Brian's heroes and influences. This is the evocative closing track from his 1966 album Moonlight Sinatra:
url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonlight_Sinatra
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Post by boogieboarder on Jun 9, 2023 10:22:31 GMT -5
In the 1980s I had a tape of Brian Wilson singing a snippet of something called “Spring is Here,” which I assumed was an original tune he was writing, until 10 or 15 years later I discovered a version by Frank Sinatra, a cover of a 1938 Rogers and Hart song.
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Post by jk on Jun 10, 2023 7:07:37 GMT -5
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Post by jk on Jun 15, 2023 6:38:59 GMT -5
If "Do You Remember" strings out a list of names of figures in rock'n'roll and pop who helped shape Brian and the Boys' music, you might say that "Surfin' U.S.A." (which I initially mistyped as "Surgin' U.S.A." ) does the honours in purely musical terms. In the intro, they doff their cap to Duane Eddy's first (modest) hit "Moovin' N' Groovin'"... ...before Chuck's "Sweet Little Sixteen" kicks in: Lastly, Brian's organ solo harks back to the likes of Philip Upchurch's "You Can't Sit Down":
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Post by jk on Jun 17, 2023 4:01:47 GMT -5
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Post by jk on Jun 19, 2023 15:40:12 GMT -5
Might the clarinet in Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue, most noticeably at the start, have prompted Brian's favoured use of this instrument, often in unison with others, on Pet Sounds? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhapsody_in_Blue
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Post by Will/P.P. on Jul 3, 2023 9:52:14 GMT -5
Put this up on another thread last Saturday. That was the stereo mix. This is the mono single mix.
"Zulu Stamp" was something I heard while developing my love of the "Brian Wilson Sound". Not so different to "Pet Sounds". The whole album is worth checking out. I still have my old vinyl copy. Own a lot of John Barry records.
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Post by jk on Jul 3, 2023 16:59:45 GMT -5
"Zulu Stamp" was something I heard while developing my love of the "Brian Wilson Sound". Not so different to "Pet Sounds". The whole album is worth checking out. I still have my old vinyl copy. Own a lot of John Barry records. Thanks, Will. Love John Barry's stuff. As for what might have actually influenced the track "Pet Sounds", the closest I can get is Martin Denny's 1959 hit version of Les Baxter's "Quiet Village", although Brian claims he's never got round to listening to exotica. I don't know -- those triplets, that güiro effect... And then there's the vibraphone but that's another story. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet_Village
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Post by jk on Jul 11, 2023 9:20:41 GMT -5
If the upward "sigh" at the end of the break in "GOK" might be construed as a reversal of the opening downward octave gliss of "I'm So Young" (The Ronettes’ version is minimal and ascending), where, if anywhere, did the little smears in the title of "Little Saint Nick" as sung by the backing voices come from? I can't hear it in the Freshmen or The Hi-Los, though I must admit it sounds familiar -- another pop group heavy in the vocal department perhaps?
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Post by jk on Jul 15, 2023 12:32:17 GMT -5
The background "vocals" on two US chart-toppers from 1960, Larry Verne's "Mr. Custer" (co-written by Al De Lory)…
...and, more significantly, Johnny Preston's "Running Bear"…
...must surely have influenced Brian's "Bicycle Rider" segment of SMiLE...
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Post by jk on Jul 20, 2023 4:39:23 GMT -5
If the upward "sigh" at the end of the break in "GOK" might be construed as a reversal of the opening downward octave gliss of "I'm So Young" (The Ronettes’ version is minimal and ascending), where, if anywhere, did the little smears in the title of "Little Saint Nick" as sung by the backing voices come from? I can't hear it in the Freshmen or The Hi-Los, though I must admit it sounds familiar -- another pop group heavy in the vocal department perhaps? Still pondering the provenance of those "smears", I can only assume it must have been the influence of the Freshmen, perhaps in an exaggerated form. These early (1960) birthday greetings from a multi-tracked BW would seem to bear this out:
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Post by jk on Aug 22, 2023 7:40:04 GMT -5
Now where have I heard this before? I'm wondering whether Brian's memories of the high school band influenced those "marching band" episodes in "Look" aka "I Ran"...
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Post by jk on Aug 22, 2023 8:16:53 GMT -5
I'm wondering whether Brian's memories of the high school band influenced those "marching band" episodes in "Look" aka "I Ran"... While on the subject... Listening to Dutch "classical" radio some years ago I was struck by the similarity of the section at 3:36 in the video below to Brian's "marching band" tune. The piece in question is the Cabaletta ("Vien diletto, è in ciel la luna") from Act II of Vincenzo Bellini's opera I puritani, in the version I heard that morning by Angela Gheorghiu and the LSO. See what you think. It must be coincidence -- unless Audree's (or Murry's) taste in music extended to opera!
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Post by jk on Sept 4, 2023 8:01:23 GMT -5
I spent an hour yesterday playing through all the versions available on YouTube of "Shortenin' Bread". None of them comes close to what Brian made of it. Now, Kapitan at BBT! has this thread featuring records that have topped the Billboard Hot 100 since its inception in the late 1950s. A recent post was devoted to Dave "Baby" Cortez's "The Happy Organ", including a remark that some of the melody bore a close resemblance to that of "Shortenin' Bread". It took a while for the penny to drop. Not just that snippet of melody but also the preceding organ chords (first heard after the piano intro) might have influenced Brian's arrangement. A version of those chords is spread over the riff in the various BW rebakes. And would the bass voice on the chorus have originated with Murry singing it around the house? Any additional ideas on the subject would be most welcome. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Happy_Organ
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2023 12:23:50 GMT -5
You're half right! What Brian did is much more involved than simply lifting a riff, chord, or melody from a record. What he did here was use the influence of the original RnB/Rock n Roll hit song AND the "rewrite" of it. He had a process for combining the influences of two similar tunes into an original idea. This is important: Brian knew and was influenced by both versions. What he did was to combine, deconstruct and reconstruct parts of the songs to create something new. The was part of Brian's brilliance that no one previously recognized. Another of Brian's major influences were white pop/Rock male singers of the late 50's and early 60s. The obvious one people know is Dion. Another, who people don't credit, is Bobby Rydell. The songwriters, Bernie Lowe, Kal Mann, and Dave Appell were responsible for the Rydell records. Here are three Bobby Rydell hits that combinations of Mann, Lowe, Appell wrote based on other Rnb/Rock n Roll records. 1. WILDWOOD DAYS - based on Chuck Berry's ALMOST GROWN. Brian used the shuffle organ chords and organ break of Wildwood Days and the song's background vocals, that turned Chuck Berry's phrase into 'la dee oo day' for THE LITTLE GIRL I ONCE KNEW 2. KISSIN' TIME - based on Chuck Berry's SWEET LITTLE SIXTEEN. Brian took the "USA" concept from the Rydell record. There's a lot more going on in SURFIN' USA than has been talked about, but I'll leave this as it is. 3. SWINGIN' SCHOOL - based on Larry Williams' BONY MARONIE. I think what Brian did with LET US GO ON THIS WAY was incredibly brilliant. For LUGOTW's verse, he kept part of the Rydell record and re-added a key hook from Bony Maronie while taking out a an important element of that hook. Basically, he kept the whiteness of Swingin' School's melody (for this song the songwriters replaced the flatted 7th (a blue note) found in the Williams melody and replaced it with a natural 7th. And, in keeping with that, when Brian re-added the Bony Maronie sax answer/hook, he took out the 'blue notes' out of that riff and, except for one flatted 3rd passing note, Brian's riff is all diatonic. That was clever! In all of these songs, Brian used more than just these various influences. For instance, the underlying "chasis" for the bridge in Let Us Go On This Way comes from the lead up to the hook line of a Bobby Darin song... and the 4 bar leadup to the hook line is basically Shut Down's verse melody . Many Mann, Lowe, and/or Appell tunes were originally based on other hit records. That was how they did things at Cameo Records. PS - on youtube go to: Dick Clark's 1960 Movie Debut "Because They're Young" at about 6:00 you will hear Bobby Rydell's original version of Swingin' School. The Bony Maronie influence is clear. Cameo must have gotten nervous or got a cease and desist from Art Rupe's lawyers. The song was rewritten.
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Post by Mikie on Sept 4, 2023 12:53:52 GMT -5
PS - on youtube go to: Dick Clark's 1960 Movie Debut "Because They're Young". At about 6:00 you will hear Bobby Rydell's original version of Swingin' School. The Bony Maronie influence is clear. Cameo must have gotten nervous or got a cease and desist from Art Rupe's lawyers. The song was rewritten.
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Post by jk on Sept 4, 2023 15:42:16 GMT -5
You're half right! What Brian did is much more involved than simply lifting a riff, chord, or melody from a record. What he did here was use the influence of the original RnB/Rock n Roll hit song AND the "rewrite" of it. He had a process for combining the influences of two similar tunes into an original idea. This is important: Brian knew and was influenced by both versions. What he did was to combine, deconstruct and reconstruct parts of the songs to create something new. The was part of Brian's brilliance that no one previously recognized. Another of Brian's major influences were white pop/Rock male singers of the late 50's and early 60s. The obvious one people know is Dion. Another, who people don't credit, is Bobby Rydell. The songwriters, Bernie Lowe, Kal Mann, and Dave Appell were responsible for the Rydell records. Wow, Steve -- welcome back! Please feel free to expand on any of the points you make. I believe you've just given this thread a birthday.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2023 20:53:33 GMT -5
There's a lot to say about any of Brian's songs, and it's difficult to explain some of these things in a short post without making people go cross eyed, but here's a quick cut of one of the three examples I mentioned - Almost Grown, Wildwood Days, and The Little Girl I Once Knew. I think it demonstrates some of what I was trying to express in my post. drive.google.com/file/d/1GFGUPESo2xbBEkMjSCXR12MBAZDDbLmx/view?usp=sharing
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Post by jk on Sept 5, 2023 3:14:02 GMT -5
There's a lot to say about any of Brian's songs, and it's difficult to explain some of these things in a short post without making people go cross eyed, but here's a quick cut of one of the three examples I mentioned - Almost Grown, Wildwood Days, and The Little Girl I Once Knew. I think it demonstrates some of what I was trying to express in my post. drive.google.com/file/d/1GFGUPESo2xbBEkMjSCXR12MBAZDDbLmx/view?usp=sharingThanks for that, S. I'd heard "Almost Grown" a couple of years before "TLGIOK" was released, but the Rydell song is new to me. That's quite an eye-opener. I'd always regarded Bobby as a cut above the likes of Fabian!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2023 15:45:27 GMT -5
3. SWINGIN' SCHOOL - based on Larry Williams' BONY MARONIE. I think what Brian did with LET US GO ON THIS WAY was incredibly brilliant. For LUGOTW's verse, he kept part of the Rydell record and re-added a key hook from Bony Maronie while taking out a an important element of that hook. Basically, he kept the whiteness of Swingin' School's melody (for this song the songwriters replaced the flatted 7th (a blue note) found in the Williams melody and replaced it with a natural 7th. And, in keeping with that, when Brian re-added the Bony Maronie sax answer/hook, he took out the 'blue notes' out of that riff and, except for one flatted 3rd passing note, Brian's riff is all diatonic. That was clever!........ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ When i first heard what was going on in Let Us Go On This Way's verse, that is, the connection with Bony Maronie via Bobby Rydell, I was blown away, But I had a tiny bit of insecurity about it. What if it was coincidence? There were plenty of RnB songs with that sort of call and response and those sort of riffs. But when I finally heard the original soundtrack version of Swingin' School, I thought, "omg, I'm right." Finding other musical references in LUGOTW happened over time. Probably pver a couple of months. I don't search for things. The associations usually come from me singing one vocal or musical line in my head. Often times I'll loop it and that's when things start to happen. Once I've made an association, I go to youtube to verify what I hear in my head. Often, I will find another one or two things in one of those found tunes that Brian snagged to use in some other way, in some other song. Here is a quickie edit of Bony Maronie.Swingin School 2x LetUsGoOnThisWay: drive.google.com/file/d/1HveWabnoIvnAGmHJUM2khyDIKlwfgaCt/view?usp=sharing
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